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KurtiZ

Other than nostalgia, why do people like Halo 3?

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You don't think halo 3 was a good game? I understand halo 2 had a better ranking system, but I thought the exp ranking introduced in h3 was a cool addition. Still its not like h3 had a BAD ranking system, just not as good as before.

I put gameplay above superficial things like ranks.

When compared to earlier games in the series, and post-patch Reach, Halo 3 is not a good game.

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It might actually be lag, but remember that the bubble shield is active before the sprite shift completes and the shield is made visible.

I mean stepping out of it, firing the rocket, stepping back in, and blowing up.

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I believe the people that complain about the "spread" of the BR just haven't played the game enough.  I know there is a spread, but it's not as drastic as most detractors will make you believe.

Yeah....no.

 

Look, I'm all for the "to each their own" views being expressed in this thread. Not personally a huge H3 fan even though it introduced me to online play and is probably the most, idk, significant Halo in my personal history. But I also accept that this is ultimately subjective and agree that there's no point berating people for a simple difference in preference, especially when the only reason people don't to H2 or CE people is because they're in the comfortable majority.

 

But in terms of that specific statement, just no. You can't simply dismiss people's reasons for not liking the H3 BR as "well you just haven't played enough."

 

If your brain ever hands you the conclusion that people simply disagree with you because they're ill-informed, be very goddamn wary of trusting it consciously. This is one of the basic ways in which our minds will reaffirm something we emotionally conclude as being objectively true. It's a basic emotional mechanic, and is not worth simply trusting without further reflection.

 

If you're totally honest with yourself, is it genuinely reasonable to suspect that all the H3 detractors are simply less experienced than you? Do you actually think that's a sensible conclusion to reach based on what you have in front of you?

 

Now this:

 

The H3 BR has it's limitations, you can't 4 shot people from across the map anymore, which is something I'm a fan of. Call me a scrub if you want, but I don't believe you should be able to 4 people from P3 to Top Carbine on middy. (personal opinion), to me, that adds more teamwork to the game.

Makes much more sense to me. I personally don't like that as much, or at least to the extent that H3 takes it, but at the same time you've identified why you think what you do, and why others might not, and that gap is simply subjective. This is, imo, the way the discussion should go down if it's going to be at all productive in helping people understand each others views.

 

For my part, I kind of agree to a point, insofar as I do think nigh on limitless ranged effectiveness is a tricky thing to have in a utility weapon. My personal issue is how they implemented it: randomness.

 

Making things possible and consistent, but more difficult > making them random and hoping that equals out to a skill gap imo.

 

Make shooting at range harder (a la CE), or just outright limit ranged effectiveness with a consistent mechanic such as damage drop off. Making something random is just an inherently inelegant solution imo. It leaves room for the undesirable outcome (ie. high ranged effectiveness) to still happen, because randomness is never a full limit, just a "gets progressively less likely" limit. It also leaves room for desirable outcomes *not* to happen when they should, ie. random spread interfering with mid ranged battles, or basically anything outside of AR range being at reasonable risk of going to a 5 shot even with perfect accuracy on the part of the player.

 

The fact that H3's range limiting mechanics ended up having such a profound effect on situations which they weren't ostensibly aimed at is really what demonstrates my personal issues with it. You really didn't have to be shooting P3 to top car to suffer the effects of spread, in fact you'd be lucky to consistently 4 shot from bottom mid to a window. There's limiting extreme range, and then there's the H3 BR.

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The fact that H3's range limiting mechanics ended up having such a profound effect on situations which they weren't ostensibly aimed at is really what demonstrates my personal issues with it. You really didn't have to be shooting P3 to top car to suffer the effects of spread, in fact you'd be lucky to consistently 4 shot from bottom mid to a window. There's limiting extreme range, and then there's the H3 BR.

 

If you can't consistently 4 shot at that distance, which I can't because of my skill, and you blame the spread of the BR, you need to go back and watch the film.  You missed a shot.  Not a bullet, but a burst, probably because you didn't properly lead your shots.

 

The "you" I'm referencing in this, isn't you (Pegasi).  It's whomever is in this situation. 

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If you're totally honest with yourself, is it genuinely reasonable to suspect that all the H3 detractors are simply less experienced than you? Do you actually think that's a sensible conclusion to reach based on what you have in front of you?

 

 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with people having less experience than myself, people are playing it expecting to be able to do certain things with this weapon based on previous variants of this weapon.  Therefore, if you believe you are dying because of this "WILDLY" random weapon, you haven't used the weapon enough as it is intended to be used.  That is what I meant by that statement.

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well isn't the halo 3 BR RNG?

 

which ya know, means it's random...

 

 

I never said it wasn't random, because that would be a lie.   

 

I never said that there wasn't a spread, because that would be a lie.

 

I said that the spread isn't as drastic as some would lead people to believe.

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H2 is the easiest competitive game to shoot guns in of all time.  No question.  The only reason that game was competitive was because the game accidentally had button glitches which created a skill gap needed because of how much aim assist was there.  The easiest sniper in the series with the fastest firing time also belonged to this game.  The swizzord was so OP it was ridiculous.

 

:wutface:

 

StK was winning tournament after tournament long before button glitches came into the mix. The discovery of button glitches just added to the meta game over time. If anything, the fact that players were just exploiting certain aspects of the game so long after release speaks to the competitive merit. In fact, I'd say that a large portion of the competitive strategy used in Halo 3 is derived from competitive play in Halo 2.

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If you can't consistently 4 shot at that distance, which I can't because of my skill, and you blame the spread of the BR, you need to go back and watch the film.  You missed a shot.  Not a bullet, but a burst, probably because you didn't properly lead your shots.

 

The "you" I'm referencing in this, isn't you (Pegasi).  It's whomever is in this situation. 

Kinda hard to "properly" lead your shots when the amount of lead depends on your latency to the host - which you don't know in-game.  For shorter range encounters, latencies of 0 - 50ms probably don't mean squat (and a 50ms P2P connection is pretty damn good for matchmaking).  But for the longer range encounters, host has a distinct advantage.  His latency to himself is zero, and he only needs to lead based on what he sees on his screen.

 

The spread - though annoying (and one of the reasons I liked H3 less than the others) is less relevant in most natural BR situations than the difficulty with ballistic weapons on P2P connections.

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How I feel about Halo CE, 2 and 3:

 

You want a game to be excel at individually, play Halo 1.

 

You want a tight skill gap, btn combos that increase said skill gap, play Halo 2.

 

You want a game that, quite honestly, require all players on the same page and working together to win, play Halo 3.

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I really liked the spawn system in H3. It made sense and you could manipulate it to a point but it was also "random groups of players" friendly for the most part. It also wasn't on ******** levels of idiot protection like Reach and onward where if you looked at the spawn they were going to get it would give them a different one if possible which is just... anti talent/intelligence. Unless you were committing some sort of cardinal sin like standing mid gold on Construct you could live with other players giving you "bad" spawns but still take advantage of the system in higher level games. Besides that though? The snipe was cool and it was the hardest in the series to use imo followed closely by CE. The animations when you sniped players were also the best in the series by a mile followed by H2 probably. After that it just goes downhill. The BR, netcode, FoV, aim acceleration and movement speed were all ass. There really isn't any way around it the game ran like shit online.  

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Kinda hard to "properly" lead your shots when the amount of lead depends on your latency to the host - which you don't know in-game.  For shorter range encounters, latencies of 0 - 50ms probably don't mean squat (and a 50ms P2P connection is pretty damn good for matchmaking).  But for the longer range encounters, host has a distinct advantage.  His latency to himself is zero, and he only needs to lead based on what he sees on his screen.

 

The spread - though annoying (and one of the reasons I liked H3 less than the others) is less relevant in most natural BR situations than the difficulty with ballistic weapons on P2P connections.

 

Interesting.

 

Isn't that why off host hit boxes were enlarged in H3 though?  I may be off on this.

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Interesting.

 

Isn't that why off host hit boxes were enlarged in H3 thought?  I may be off on this.

They were (along with less aim assist for the host), but it didn't fix the problem.  It mitigated it . . . but that is all.  Certainly didn't compensate for all the hit registration issues.

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How I feel about Halo CE, 2 and 3:

 

You want a game to be excel at individually, play Halo 1.

 

You want a tight skill gap, btn combos that increase said skill gap, play Halo 2.

 

You want a game that, quite honestly, require all players on the same page and working together to win, play Halo 3.

This implies that Halo 2 somehow doesn't require all players on the same page and working together. Both games require very similar levels of coordination and teamwork.

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If you can't consistently 4 shot at that distance, which I can't because of my skill, and you blame the spread of the BR, you need to go back and watch the film.  You missed a shot.  Not a bullet, but a burst, probably because you didn't properly lead your shots.

 

The "you" I'm referencing in this, isn't you (Pegasi).  It's whomever is in this situation.

Really? Cause I'm testing this on a local game (so we can't even factor in H3's atrocious netcode). One player in windowjust behind the two edge fins (the bits you can hind behind). Another player at the opposite side of bottom mid, against the opposite side of the lower "bowl" bit but still in it. The Sniper scope reports this as almost exactly 33M. For reference, it counts P3 to top Car as just under 70M. I tried 10 times unscoped, literally didn't hit a 4 shot once. 6 of those attempts were 5 shots, 4 were 6 shots. No one was moving, I lined it up with a sniper beforehand to ensure the reticle was centred perfectly, and the BR reticle itself had the red dot indicating a correctly lined up headshot.

 

Bear in mind the BR reticle is red at this range. If that isn't intended range, I don't know what the hell is. Not only did it not manage a single unscoped 4 shot in 10 attempts with zero latency/dropped packet, it couldn't even manage a consistent 5 shot, going to 6 almost half the attempts.

 

It has nothing to do with people having less experience than myself, people are playing it expecting to be able to do certain things with this weapon based on previous variants of this weapon. Therefore, if you believe you are dying because of this "WILDLY" random weapon, you haven't used the weapon enough as it is intended to be used. That is what I meant by that statement.

But that's nothing to do with how much you've used it. You're just arguing that people will enjoy it if they lower their expectations of what a utility weapon should be able to achieve. Well duh, not having to lower their expectations is exactly what they're arguing for. That's not an argument in its favour.

 

But again, my core point here is that range limiting is all very well. Randomness is a shoddy way to go about it. H3's random spread is a particularly shoddy way of going about it. I actually prefer Reach's bloom, albeit only at 85% because I just found 100% too slow.

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This implies that Halo 2 somehow doesn't require all players on the same page and working together. Both games require very similar levels of coordination and teamwork.

In Halo 2, 1 player could carry the team to victory rather easily compared to Halo 3.

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In Halo 2, 1 player could carry the team to victory rather easily compared to Halo 3.

 

If two Ogres and Walshy couldn't carry Saiyan over Carbon then I'd say Halo 2 takes all 4 guys.

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If someone says that they should be put down like an old sick dog

 

IMO

The reason we can't agree on anything is because we've had so many different versions of Halo. When we think, "What is Halo?" We each picture a different game in our minds. It's only going to get worse with the more titles they release and tweaks they make to the series. 

 

The Halo 3 BR wasn't perfect, but shouldn't a game about shooting have a considerable skill gap in that regard? I'm not trying to take away from H2 because I understand the other aspects that make BR in that game great as well, but just plain shooting feels too easy. I'm the type of person who would choose projectile > hitscan anyday though.

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Really? Cause I'm testing this on a local game (so we can't even factor in H3's atrocious netcode). One player in windowjust behind the two edge fins (the bits you can hind behind). Another player at the opposite side of bottom mid, against the opposite side of the lower "bowl" bit but still in it. 

  

 

I was under the impression that when you wrote bottom mid, that you meant the middle of bottom mid, not the furthest reaches of it.

 

Not that it's a bad thing, but that would've made me change my answer.   Good to know that is past the weapons most effective range.

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The reason we can't agree on anything is because we've had so many different versions of Halo. When we think, "What is Halo?" We each picture a different game in our minds. It's only going to get worse with the more titles they release and tweaks they make to the series. 

 

The Halo 3 BR wasn't perfect, but shouldn't a game about shooting have a considerable skill gap in that regard? I'm not trying to take away from H2 because I understand the other aspects that make BR in that game great as well, but just plain shooting feels too easy. I'm the type of person who would choose projectile > hitscan anyday though.

i agree with you 100%, a game about shooting should have a skill gap in that regard, however the RNG nature of halo 3's br takes away some of the skill involved and partially makes it a roll of the dice 

 

and yes, projectiles all fucking day

 

 

and yes the h2 br has a lot of auto aim, that is undeniable 

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Okay Guys,

 

Not trying to pile onto the H3 hate, but seriously... The game has terrible shooting mechanics.

I genuinely believe that Bungie randomized the BR with the intention of making people feel better than they actually are.

 

Here's the thing about this though. Perfect shooting in H3 can either lead to killing them, or not even getting them absolute.

I think this goes unnoticed by 99% of the H3 players.

 

I included a couple clips of the H2 BR, just to show how useless the H3 BR is in comparison.

Lastly, I added some clips on H3 noscopes, which people hilariously think don't have auto aim at all.

 

Do people not wonder why every H3 montage ever has the same exact cross map noscope Overkill?

 

 

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Gomorrah%20is%20BAD/video/661722

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If two Ogres and Walshy couldn't carry Saiyan over Carbon then I'd say Halo 2 takes all 4 guys.

Saiyan sucked though o_O. regardless, thats how I see the Original Halos. Doesn't bother me if you agree or not.

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I was under the impression that when you wrote bottom mid, that you meant the middle of bottom mid, not the furthest reaches of it.

 

Not that it's a bad thing, but that would've made me change my answer. Good to know that is past the weapons most effective range.

But that's my entire point.

 

Less than half the range YOU invoked (P3 to top Car) and it still can't even land a 4 shot ONCE. How is that a reasonable response to your complaint of cross map fouring in H2?

 

"Boss, people are 4 shotting at 70m range, we want to limit the effective range of the BR a bit. Sound good?"

 

"Sure! Make it impossible to 4 shot even at <35M under ideal conditions!"

 

This is clearly a reasonable response....

 

I mean seriouslt, that's a pitiful effective range. It just is. That means you need to get safely under 30M to even have a CHANCE at 4 shotting anything more than once in a blue moon. And down to more like 20 if you want to gain consistent 4 shots. And that's all on LAN and on host. And once again, ALL of this is taking place within red reticle range, so supposedly within the gun's "effective" range.

 

My point is that you can have a mechanic which stops people fouring P3 to top Car without making it essentially impossible to even hit a 4 shot in ideal conditions at under half that range. The issue you're describing (cross map fouring) is not even close to what H3's BR serves to limit, in fact it constantly affects mid range battles. If you want to stop cross mapping, H3's BR spread is insane overkill.

 

But worse, it can't even stay consistent at a goddamn sub 35M range. That says it all when it comes to why randomness is a bad idea in a skill shooter. You're turning even mid range battles in to a dice roll. All because this range limiting mechanic is over zealously applied. If you wana stop people cross map touring then do that. Don't make the BR a short-mid range weapon only in terms of minimum TTK.

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I was under the impression that when you wrote bottom mid, that you meant the middle of bottom mid, not the furthest reaches of it.

 

Not that it's a bad thing, but that would've made me change my answer.   Good to know that is past the weapons most effective range.

Is not the reticle being red an indication of how the weapon is meant to be used?  If so, then the weapon can't be used the way that the game is telling you it should be used without the need to resort to nostalgia (vis a vis your earlier post).  The BR simply cannot consistently hit within the range of its own visual range indicator.

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