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Halo Championship Series Season 2 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Bold is pretty misleading. They stopped scriming for other reasons not b/c they were playing Rico. And I think it was Noble Black that called of the scrim not CLG. Maybe someone can verify. I could be mixing up a different scenario.

We stopped playing cause Arkanum COULDNT really play, his internet has been acting up the last two days. Also another thing was that we couldn't really take ricochet seriously we were just laughing are ass off, I know it sounds immature but it was just a shit storm. Aries sat on their flag one of us threw it to him and we kept repeating, second game CLG basically did the same thing to us and the spawns for it are pretty garbage. I could be wrong but I was spawning for the most part on health nades of green and ramp nades of yellow which basically gives you no time to get the guy out of your base and kill the guys around.

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I think GB made some good points. However, Warlord Ricochet is seriously a thing? I haven't seen anyone try Shrine Ricochet, which is what I think they should be testing. I can't even fathom how stupid Warlord Ricochet is.

 

Obviously 343i wants to advertise their gametype, that's why they want you guys to play it. However, a tournament isn't the time to test new gametypes, especially something as mediocre (as the gt stands) as Ricochet. Ricochet doesn't work in H2A... The movement is slow, the TTK is slow, the respawns are slow. On top of that, they choose the smallest map to play.. Ricochet would have potential in H5 with the faster movement and TTK, but H5 isn't here yet.

 

What ever happened to the gametypes that 343i seemed to just forget about? Dominion, Extraction, Regicide... Hell, team Regicide would be interesting to see played competitively.

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Here's my problem with all of this.

 

There has not been visual evidence that this gametype was tested in a real-world scenario with people not scoffing at the gametype. All I've seen are videos of players, playing alone, throwing the ball into the goal from various angles.

 

That's sort of the point of the gametype...

 

I have actually played Ricochet on stream (with people from this very thread) on various forge maps. My fault was not trying it on EVERY map. I enjoyed playing it and thought about different ways players can approach strategy in it but the issues I have is that expressing that is considered taboo. I will go on the record and saying that my involvement in the HCS has been purely from a community growth angle (encouraging players to stream, helping them get started, event promotions, casting, etc) and I have no say on gametypes so I'm testing them out like everyone else and my opinion is just as valid as everyone else's.

 

Quality feedback is so much more than saying "I don't like it because it's bad" and more about providing evidence of faults in the gametype/map and then discussing the topic at length which I know 343 is looking for. I know people will disagree with me about this because that's just the nature of it but think rationally and ask yourselves these questions:

 

1. Has anyone played a full series where Ricochet was a gametype in the rotation AND taken seriously?

2. Is there any proof of REAL WORLD scenarios that Ricochet is a flawed gametype?

3. Can there be any improvements made to Ricochet?

 

Don't look at this as an opportunity to say "Goldenboy you're an idiot and I hate you" (which if you want to say that then go ahead, it's a free country) but rather a chance to actually get legitimate feedback for 343, from the community, that they can go off of.

 

You don't need to be a pro to give your opinion.  :wutface:

 

Agree with most of this and I played Ricochet with you on stream. The problem I had on Athelon when we played it was that someone figured out you could just throw it in from top center. First team to get control of the map can keep a guy there and do it over and over again.

 

I see a similar pattern in Shrine and Warlord. Tested it with some of my friends today and we actually did play it out on both maps. Similar thing every game where a team got map control and proceeded to just chuck the ball in over and over again. Obviously I am not a pro and the games I was in probably didn't reflect how it would actually be played out, but as someone who enjoys playing competitive settings the two were easily my least favorite game types in the rotation.

 

I don't know if it will be possible to play it in Halo 2 Anniversary based on the maps we have. It MIGHT be able to work in Halo 5 depending on what gets released but until I see it played in that game I can't make a judgement. 

 

Its fun to mess around with but I honestly feel like I gave it a fair shot and was not really turned on by it. Just my 2 cents. 

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I think it fundamentally changes the focus of the game. The debate is for better or for worse but regardless of that I think it's apparent that the pro's aren't happy about playing something that is such an extreme change on the meta. There are too many holes imo in the gametype where an individual can get a lucky score on the goal by himself because he knows the angles on how to throw the ball and nobody was there to intercept.

 

While that may sound like a good thing for the individual to be able to score against the team, it's a little odd considering Halo has been so extremely focused on team shooting, teamwork, and stripping the individual of "power" against a team. I wonder if this is their way of bringing individual power back?

 

Team A works hard to get a 3 down scenario on Team B and goes to grab the ball. Team B's 4th player was actually bottom mid on ball, picks it up real fast and chucks it into the goal scoring for his team. Team A made a bad play in this game mode when in literally every single other objective gametype in the history of Halo, it would be considered a good play.

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Team A works hard to get a 3 down scenario on Team B and goes to grab the ball. Team B's 4th player was actually bottom mid on ball, picks it up real fast and chucks it into the goal scoring for his team. Team A made a bad play in this game mode when in literally every single other objective gametype in the history of Halo, it would be considered a good play.

Isn't the whole point that it works on different principles? Given the potential of this scenario and the lack of maneuverability you're likely to see a designated player (probably situational rotational) stay back to block those types of play. Teams will have have different priorities when creating and breaking setups, it's too early to understand exactly how this will work out because we haven't seen enough of it played out for any real developments to made.

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^^The throw distance of the ball is way to long. This needs to be fixed before it is used in the HCS.

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Throw distance has to be the 1st thing changed.  By more than half the throw distance.   Like seriously, throw it like 10 feet.

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If the halo competitive community fails or doesn't see why it can be a success then what has the casual viewer on twitch etc got a chance of understanding it?

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Isn't the whole point that it works on different principles? Given the potential of this scenario and the lack of maneuverability you're likely to see a designated player (probably situational rotational) stay back to block those types of play. Teams will have have different priorities when creating and breaking setups, it's too early to understand exactly how this will work out because we haven't seen enough of it played out for any real developments to made.

 

Let me start by saying in all honesty, I don't find myself playing competitive Halo until there's a version of it that I think is worth my time, as lame as that sounds. I haven't been into anything past Halo 3.

 

I actually agree with you here, and think that that IS the point. However, I've also been a long time poster about the issue of competitive Halo's forced meta, and my assumption on pro's stance for Halo. I've stated numerous times that I feel current competitive Halo players ONLY like their game. Hell almost 90% don't even like playing CE. I think Halo players are scared to go out of their comfort zones and that's why we continuously stay in the rut that we are in. We won't be increasing the individual empowerment or skill in Halo, we won't diminish the priority of "teamshooting = teamwork". We don't even like maps that aren't 2 base 2 tower maps or simple ideas.

 

Some said themselves they don't want anything complex.

 

While I don't exactly think this game mode is too complex, I do think it's enough to completely change the meta of how a team objective game is played in Halo, and I'm not sure if it's for the better or worse. If individuals are more empowered, that's kinda a good thing, but not if it's in a broken way, in a weird gametype. It's just an odd fit in my opinion for an arena shooter, and something their trying to shoe horn into the game since it's their own creation.

 

As someone who has tried desperately to get competitive Halo players and pro's to try games that are more skill inducing than theirs, I realized that they aren't open to anything but what they already know and understand. At least this time with Riccochet I agree with them.

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Here's my problem with all of this.

 

There has not been visual evidence that this gametype was tested in a real-world scenario with people not scoffing at the gametype. All I've seen are videos of players, playing alone, throwing the ball into the goal from various angles.

 

That's sort of the point of the gametype...

 

I have actually played Ricochet on stream (with people from this very thread) on various forge maps. My fault was not trying it on EVERY map. I enjoyed playing it and thought about different ways players can approach strategy in it but the issues I have is that expressing that is considered taboo. I will go on the record and saying that my involvement in the HCS has been purely from a community growth angle (encouraging players to stream, helping them get started, event promotions, casting, etc) and I have no say on gametypes so I'm testing them out like everyone else and my opinion is just as valid as everyone else's.

 

Quality feedback is so much more than saying "I don't like it because it's bad" and more about providing evidence of faults in the gametype/map and then discussing the topic at length which I know 343 is looking for. I know people will disagree with me about this because that's just the nature of it but think rationally and ask yourselves these questions:

 

1. Has anyone played a full series where Ricochet was a gametype in the rotation AND taken seriously?

2. Is there any proof of REAL WORLD scenarios that Ricochet is a flawed gametype?

3. Can there be any improvements made to Ricochet?

 

Don't look at this as an opportunity to say "Goldenboy you're an idiot and I hate you" (which if you want to say that then go ahead, it's a free country) but rather a chance to actually get legitimate feedback for 343, from the community, that they can go off of.

 

You don't need to be a pro to give your opinion. :wutface:

The question that needs to be asked here is what can be done to improve the game type. It's clear that it isn't popular and I can see both sides of the argument. However, outright lambasting it isn't helping. Like Goldenboy said, constructive feedback is needed. There are times where you have to make chicken salad out of...well, you know the rest.

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There's a reason the pros have not been able to practice while being serious. Because the gametype is so silly as a competitive one.

 

We've talked a lot about The CLG vs NB trying yesterday.

 

Well Denial also went into matchmaking and played a game of Ricochet on Shrine.

Richie was sitting on carbine and just able to toss ball after ball into the goal from the spawn point.

 

Basically the game would've been over in a couple minutes if it wasn't for a bad random teammate who kept taking the ball and throwing it horribly at the goal.

 

Also as far as needing to test it seriously? It makes no sense to me.

 

Why are Zenith 1-flag, and Bloodline Gungoose CTF not being tested seriously? Because it's obviously not a competitive gametype. Ricochet falls into that same category, and yet is being thrown into HCS without any care about what the pros have to say.

 

If there's anyone who knows whether a gametype will work or not competitively, don't you think it'd be the people who the play game to make a living?

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You can also decrease the radius of the scoring zone. A bit too big right now

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I, for one, think that this is a classic case of Pros being close-minded and completely uncreative. It's the map problem all over again. I really like 343's approach on this, because for once somebody isn't being a pussy. They're actually standing up and forcing people to learn a new gametype with a new meta in order to compete. Scoff all they want, teams that take ricochet seriously are going to crush those who didn't. If 343 sticks to their guns, the pros will have no choice but to grow up and actually learn to play something new, rather than acting like being able to throw a ball is so hilarious in the context of a game where super space soldiers compete to hold a skull for more time while jumping their own bodyheight and punching them in the back to get instakills. It's a fucking video game, the point is the meta. New meta is interesting.

 

If I were a team that was at the fringes of 5th-8th expected placing, I would be very excited. This is a perfect chance to be the smarter team, and develop some unexpected strategies that exploit the ricochet gametype mechanics in non-obvious ways. If you can show up more prepared than the other teams, you can place higher. Nobody gets to argue with tournament placings. If the game was just supposed to be about who had the better shot, it would be 1v1 octagon all the time. The entire point is that we want to see teams try to out-THINK each other. Who knows if the ricochet gametypes are even close to polished right now? I don't care, I'm just happy that it's a fucking change-up that we get to see reactions to.

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I, for one, think that this is a classic case of Pros being close-minded and completely uncreative. It's the map problem all over again. I really like 343's approach on this, because for once somebody isn't being a pussy. They're actually standing up and forcing people to learn a new gametype with a new meta in order to compete. Scoff all they want, teams that take ricochet seriously are going to crush those who didn't. If 343 sticks to their guns, the pros will have no choice but to grow up and actually learn to play something new, rather than acting like being able to throw a ball is so hilarious in the context of a game where super space soldiers compete to hold a skull for more time while jumping their own bodyheight and punching them in the back to get instakills. It's a fucking video game, the point is the meta. New meta is interesting.

I think it's interesting that everyone was saying to ignore the pros opinions when it came to Tesla. Quite a few pros wanted it and the community reacted by saying they're uncreative and don't like anything new and asking 343 to ignore the pro opinions.

 

Now the community is making a 180 and asking why 343 didn't listen to the pros.

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A few things need to happen if Ricochet is going to be a viable gametype.

 

-Throw distance must be toned down. Should not be able to score it from where it spawns on any map.

-Non-random rotating ball spawns. This forces teams to rotate and hold different areas of the map.

-Run in scores should be worth at least 2x more than a throw in.

-Scoring zones need to be smaller and possibly elevated. This makes throw ins require at least a tiny bit of skill or patience.

 

Right now the gametype consists of holding bottom mid, throwing the ball in the direction of the goal, rinse and repeat. Throws take no skill because the ball can roll in and the zones are big. In order for it to work it needs to be slowed down (shorter throws, smaller goals, rotating spawns), and needs to have more skillful mechanics.

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A few things need to happen if Ricochet is going to be a viable gametype.

 

-Throw distance must be toned down. Should not be able to score it from where it spawns on any map.

-Non-random rotating ball spawns. This forces teams to rotate and hold different areas of the map.

-Run in scores should be worth at least 2x more than a throw in.

-Scoring zones need to be smaller and possibly elevated. This makes throw ins require at least a tiny bit of skill or patience.

 

Right now the gametype consists of holding bottom mid, throwing the ball in the direction of the goal, rinse and repeat. Throws take no skill because the ball can roll in and the zones are big. In order for it to work it needs to be slowed down (shorter throws, smaller goals, rotating spawns), and needs to have more skillful mechanics.

They should just raise the goals up a bit so the ball can't roll in.

 

 

Edit: I'm an idiot, you said exactly that in your post.

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I think the way 343 is going about putting new gametypes into the HCS rotation is completely wrong.  Apparently Tashi said something along the lines to Heinz, "Prove to us that ricochet doesn't work in competitive play and then we'll take it out."  This is the completely wrong way to go about implementing gametypes into a tournament setting. MONEY IS ON THE LINE! 

 

The way implementing new gametypes into HCS should work is that the gamtype needs to be PROVED that it is COMPETITIVE, not the other way around.  I personally don't want to be competing for money and play a gametype in a tournament setting that has a huge luck factor in it and exploits such as throwing the ball into the goal from one step away from where it spawns.

 

343 needs to test these maps and gametypes further and make sure they are making the right decisions. Money is on the line and in those cases I think it should be obvious you need to create the best tournament environment for those competing.  Implementing ricochet like this is a reckless decision IMO.

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Here's my problem with all of this.

 

There has not been visual evidence that this gametype was tested in a real-world scenario with people not scoffing at the gametype. All I've seen are videos of players, playing alone, throwing the ball into the goal from various angles.

 

That's sort of the point of the gametype...

 

I have actually played Ricochet on stream (with people from this very thread) on various forge maps. My fault was not trying it on EVERY map. I enjoyed playing it and thought about different ways players can approach strategy in it but the issues I have is that expressing that is considered taboo. I will go on the record and saying that my involvement in the HCS has been purely from a community growth angle (encouraging players to stream, helping them get started, event promotions, casting, etc) and I have no say on gametypes so I'm testing them out like everyone else and my opinion is just as valid as everyone else's.

 

Quality feedback is so much more than saying "I don't like it because it's bad" and more about providing evidence of faults in the gametype/map and then discussing the topic at length which I know 343 is looking for. I know people will disagree with me about this because that's just the nature of it but think rationally and ask yourselves these questions:

 

1. Has anyone played a full series where Ricochet was a gametype in the rotation AND taken seriously?

2. Is there any proof of REAL WORLD scenarios that Ricochet is a flawed gametype?

3. Can there be any improvements made to Ricochet?

 

Don't look at this as an opportunity to say "Goldenboy you're an idiot and I hate you" (which if you want to say that then go ahead, it's a free country) but rather a chance to actually get legitimate feedback for 343, from the community, that they can go off of.

 

You don't need to be a pro to give your opinion. :wutface:

well when it's proven to be trash in this game just know we all heard it here first and wasted our time. The whole situation is a joke I just hope lord gaben has mercy on our souls.
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