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Drazin

Switching the competitive scene to a different halo game?

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Does that look like a game that should have still been going in 2012? What about Brood War that's still played today?

 

It's part of the problem that people in the Halo community already have the end goal in their sights (growth / status / prestige) before taking care of themselves primarily. Only a very small minority of the Halo community have ever been impassioned enough to stick with the game they truly enjoyed and push that particular scene forward. Everyone else has proved time and time again that they will compromise because they're not willing to muster the effort to go against what is the easier option.

 

It's not easy, but it is still a very do-able thing to do. However in this instance it is not likely happen despite the amount of people that chant the same mantra - talk is cheap.

PC gaming is a whole different animal.

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Can you give some examples of different setups on a single CE map? You listed examples of linear strategies for h2-h3, but no examples for diverse strategies for h1. I would like to hear them.

 

Have you even played CE? Just wondering.

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PC gaming is a whole different animal.

In what way?

 

People could have continued to play CE just as they did before H2 came out. The H2 servers on the original Xbox only shut down a few years ago. Similarly  H3 > HR, HR > H4 and so on...

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In what way?

 

People could have continued to play CE just as they did before H2 came out. The H2 servers on the original Xbox only shut down a few years ago. Similarly H3 > HR, HR > H4 and so on...

PC gaming doesnt run on generations of hardware. Its also incredibly mod based. You could play the same game forever and just update it. You dont even need dev support.

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If you were gonna go back to an old Halo you'd have to give up certain things like LANs. Halo just can't support multiple tournaments and huge cash payouts. We as a community can't support that. We could support online tournaments however with one huge live event a year. Also as days go by 4v4s die as our competitive community numbers dwindle. I frequent the forums far less now.

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PC gaming doesnt run on generations of hardware. Its also incredibly mod based. You could play the same game forever and just update it. You dont even need dev support.

For sure that creates an obstacle but IMO it doesn't make that much difference in people supporting a scene. CE even has its own community created game update.

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For sure that creates an obstacle but IMO it doesn't make that much difference in people supporting a scene. CE even has its own community created game update.

 

Two if I'm not mistaken, specifically for console. We're not that small of a community and if we jumped in to CE and supported it when we found out we were getting it again it would have been the best time if any to make an impact. The problem is were so fragmented as a community and generally speaking people refer to the first three titles as real Halo titles, despite the fact that they are incredibly different from each other. Players who enjoy their versions of games would rather play what they enjoy than support the most competitive version of their game. Maybe they've played 2v2 CE, maybe they haven't but I would put a good amount of money on the fact that if they did, they didn't understand it.

 

We're in the position we are for numerous reasons. The developers play a major part in that but our community certainly isn't doing us any favors.

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PC gaming doesnt run on generations of hardware. Its also incredibly mod based. You could play the same game forever and just update it. You dont even need dev support.

 

Pretty much all PC games that have survived for a very long time (1.6, brood war, quake) saw very little changes to the actual game. BW received it's last balance patch in like '01 and was then balanced via maps created by tournament organizers. There is a reason 1.6 is called 1.6 and that game didn't even receive many new maps for comp play. Quake Live is pretty much Quake 3 with a bunch of minor balance changes.

Dev support was never needed to begin with. Halo was at it's peak without dev support. SC2 was arguably bigger before Blizzard became heavily involved. BW never really got any dev support and before the current age of eSports, it was arguably the most developed scene. With tons of team houses with dedicated coaching staffs + management, huge companies involved and 2 TV channels almost solely dedicated to broadcasting the game. All of that without any support by Blizzard, in fact they eventually got sued by Blizzard.

Riot has managed to create a scene by throwing enough incentives at players to watch tournaments and also throwing a shit ton of money at it. The fact that their game is down dumbed to a point that my grandma could play it also helps a lot. While eSports is moving more and more towards dev run crap, you DO NOT need dev support ever with any game. Hell Smash even had Nintendo shut down streams and they are doing far better than Halo.

 

It seems to me like you always have an excuse when comparisons are made. Smash is different since it's Nintendo, other games since they are run on PC.

We have all 3 top Halo games on a disc. IMO that's all we ever needed. Yes it will be small as fuck at first, hell it'd even be competition to HCS and share viewership with that. But if the scene is dedicated enough we could grow it to become huge again. Before 343 became involved, the plan was to use H2C as the main game and maybe run some CE for 2s on the side. Let's go back to that plan. Hell we could even start of by being 95% online first and having rather small tournaments with like 2-5 LANs per year. That's something that can grow. And it won't get fucked whenever a new game comes out that is inferior. But it seems like the community has gotten used to adapting to the new game (just go back a few months and check the threads about using h2a as the tourney game simply because of dev support and it being new).

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It's a better game to not take seriously since it's less suited for competition. When people say "halo 3 is a better game," it wouldn't be so bad as long as the disclaimer above was included.

Just because it's not as well suited for competition doesn't mean it should be taken any less seriously. If that was the case, then Halo never would have had a competitive scene. This huge skillgap in CE that everyone talks about? Top level Quake makes it look like child's play.

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Just because it's not as well suited for competition doesn't mean it should be taken any less seriously. If that was the case, then Halo never would have had a competitive scene. This huge skillgap in CE that everyone talks about? Top level Quake makes it look like child's play.

 

You can literally say that about every game besides Quake. UT is a joke compared to Quake. CS is a joke compared to UT. CoD is a joke compared to CS.

Warcraft 3 is a joke compared to Brood War. SC2 is total crap compared to BW. And don't even get me started on what the whole MOBA Genre is compared to War3/BW/SC2.

I just wish they'd make some form of Shadowrun Anniversary. That game was one of the very few games that moved in a different direction. While games and genres in general become more and more dumbed down, Shadowrun is far superior to H2 and H3 and all other console fps of it's time.

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Can you give some examples of different setups on a single CE map? You listed examples of linear strategies for h2-h3, but no examples for diverse strategies for h1. I would like to hear them.

On damnation for example there is no one place that is overly dominant. The power positions rotate on the map since power items spawn at 60-90 second intervals. You're constantly fighting for control of items in different locations on the map, but not in the same places since there are several different ways to obtain these items. Let's say camo just spawned- I can nade it down, use it for baiting, run to its location and grab it, etc... There is no central point on the map that has overly dominant lines of sight since the map is divided into several rooms, so you're never in the same place for more than 60-90 seconds.

 

The same thing goes for chill out. There's no central/higher ground point on the map giving you a huge advantage. You're constantly moving around the map fighting for rockets, OS, camo, and sniper which all spawn on 60-90 second timers. If you stay in one location for a long time and miss the opportunity to grab these items you're going to lose, whereas not holding pink/ring/mid for the entire game on maps from the sequels puts you at a huge disadvantage.

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Just because it's not as well suited for competition doesn't mean it should be taken any less seriously. If that was the case, then Halo never would have had a competitive scene. This huge skillgap in CE that everyone talks about? Top level Quake makes it look like child's play.

 

Not a big fan of comparing quake to console shooters because quake is just on a different level. However I'll beat the rest of the CE guys here by saying if CE is childs play compared to quake, what was Halo 3 and other shooters like compared to quake? I've been able to hold my own against Halo 2 teams and even beaten my fair share of Halo 3 pro teams. My partner and I couldn't even break 10 kills on patch and shade back in 07 on our own host.

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Not a big fan of comparing quake to console shooters because quake is just on a different level. However I'll beat the rest of the CE guys here by saying if CE is childs play compared to quake, what was Halo 3 and other shooters like compared to quake? I've been able to hold my own against Halo 2 teams and even beaten my fair share of Halo 3 pro teams. My partner and I couldn't even break 10 kills on patch and shade back in 07 on our own host.

I was trying to explain that we shouldn't belittle people because the most competitive game isn't their favorite; like I said before, if that was the case none of us would be on a competitive Halo forum.

 

People will play a game that they enjoy, not a game with the highest skill ceiling. I think a lot of H3 players understand that the game isn't the best competitively, yet it's still their favorite. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Let's imagine a Quake player comes here to argue that CE shouldn't be played competitively because Quake is objectively a more competitive game. How do you think people would react?

 

You can literally say that about every game besides Quake. UT is a joke compared to Quake. CS is a joke compared to UT. CoD is a joke compared to CS.

Warcraft 3 is a joke compared to Brood War. SC2 is total crap compared to BW. And don't even get me started on what the whole MOBA Genre is compared to War3/BW/SC2.

I just wish they'd make some form of Shadowrun Anniversary. That game was one of the very few games that moved in a different direction. While games and genres in general become more and more dumbed down, Shadowrun is far superior to H2 and H3 and all other console fps of it's time.

Yeah, that's the point. No fps can touch Quake, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy or play other fps games Competitively.

 

Shadowruns launch was such a disappointment. I honestly can't believe MS released a MP game with no single player campaign as a full priced retail product. Does anyone know what happened to everyone at FASA?

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I was trying to explain that we shouldn't belittle people because the most competitive game isn't their favorite; like I said before, if that was the case none of us would be on a competitive Halo forum.

 

People will play a game that they enjoy, not a game with the highest skill ceiling. I think a lot of H3 players understand that the game isn't the best competitively, yet it's still their favorite. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Let's imagine a Quake player comes here to argue that CE shouldn't be played competitively because Quake is objectively a more competitive game. How do you think people would react?

 

 

Yeah, that's the point. No fps can touch Quake, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy or play other fps games Competitively.

 

Shadowruns launch was such a disappointment. I honestly can't believe MS released a MP game with no single player campaign as a full priced retail product. Does anyone know what happened to everyone at FASA?

 

I definitely don't agree with belittling people over their versions of Halo that they enjoy. Believe me I do see plenty of it around, but I always try to make it a point in my posts to enlighten rather than bash. However, I also feel the minority has had a hand playing each title competitively, which doesn't help when debating about the games competitive merit. I can understand though the frustration of seeing your series dilute over a decade and watch people post about how they feel the Halo 3 BR was actually good. I think our community should always be striving for more competitively because face it, Halo can be an incredibly casual game when set up properly. We really shouldn't settle, but that's going beyond the point.

 

I mean as far as quake goes, I understand what you're saying but I still feel it's a stretch comparing PC and Console. Halo is all one series all on one brand, and we're hoping to stick with the most competitive version of that brand, like smash or other fighting game communities. I would also explain the differences in quake and CE, and hopefully enlighten the quake player on how mental the game is despite the slow movement speed. A lot of times though PC players just don't want to hear it.

 

As far as FASA, turns out Sage Merril was really the brains behind Shadowrun and John Howard had little to do with it. You may know Sage from the horrible game Halo Reach, but he stuck it out with Bungie and was a key developer on Destiny. Rumor has it when they were coding the teleport in destiny they had originally made it so you can go through floors and walls etc, but I don't really believe that. The majority of the team had worked on Reach and Halo 4, and most got scooped up by 343i. I mean if you haven't noticed by now, most of their "innovating" ideas that aren't ripped right from cod, came right from shadowrun.

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For sure that creates an obstacle but IMO it doesn't make that much difference in people supporting a scene. CE even has its own community created game update.

Yes but its updates are all for outdated hardware that people either have packec away or don't have anymore.

 

Old PC games play on a PC. The same PC that plays new games

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Pretty much all PC games that have survived for a very long time (1.6, brood war, quake) saw very little changes to the actual game. BW received it's last balance patch in like '01 and was then balanced via maps created by tournament organizers. There is a reason 1.6 is called 1.6 and that game didn't even receive many new maps for comp play. Quake Live is pretty much Quake 3 with a bunch of minor balance changes.

Dev support was never needed to begin with. Halo was at it's peak without dev support. SC2 was arguably bigger before Blizzard became heavily involved. BW never really got any dev support and before the current age of eSports, it was arguably the most developed scene. With tons of team houses with dedicated coaching staffs + management, huge companies involved and 2 TV channels almost solely dedicated to broadcasting the game. All of that without any support by Blizzard, in fact they eventually got sued by Blizzard.

Riot has managed to create a scene by throwing enough incentives at players to watch tournaments and also throwing a shit ton of money at it. The fact that their game is down dumbed to a point that my grandma could play it also helps a lot. While eSports is moving more and more towards dev run crap, you DO NOT need dev support ever with any game. Hell Smash even had Nintendo shut down streams and they are doing far better than Halo.

 

It seems to me like you always have an excuse when comparisons are made. Smash is different since it's Nintendo, other games since they are run on PC.

We have all 3 top Halo games on a disc. IMO that's all we ever needed. Yes it will be small as fuck at first, hell it'd even be competition to HCS and share viewership with that. But if the scene is dedicated enough we could grow it to become huge again. Before 343 became involved, the plan was to use H2C as the main game and maybe run some CE for 2s on the side. Let's go back to that plan. Hell we could even start of by being 95% online first and having rather small tournaments with like 2-5 LANs per year. That's something that can grow. And it won't get fucked whenever a new game comes out that is inferior. But it seems like the community has gotten used to adapting to the new game (just go back a few months and check the threads about using h2a as the tourney game simply because of dev support and it being new).

Im not making excuses lol. Nintendo and PC platforms are different from xbox/Ps platforms. Theres a reason you dont have any xbox/ps examples.

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How would it be difficult? we have all 3 on the same disk, all you do is chose the game, map and gametype.

 

The only difficult thing would be filesharing all the gametypes, but that's just called being organised

 

Well, I don't know about the H2 die hards, but I know the Halo CE die hards wouldn't spend their money to attend a tournament if it was the MCC rather than OG Halo CE. I understand it's not a great way to support the community but it's not like our community supported them either. They have done their own thing for a while now with the Beach Lans, Halo 1.5, Halo final etc. Most of them have already gone back to XBC as their primary way to play good games.

 

I'd assume the Halo 2 crowd wouldn't be too fond of Halo 2 Vista either. It's definitely the most feasible time to do it now, but there are still going to be some issues.

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Well, I don't know about the H2 die hards, but I know the Halo CE die hards wouldn't spend their money to attend a tournament if it was the MCC rather than OG Halo CE. I understand it's not a great way to support the community but it's not like our community supported them either. They have done their own thing for a while now with the Beach Lans, Halo 1.5, Halo final etc. Most of them have already gone back to XBC as their primary way to play good games.

 

I'd assume the Halo 2 crowd wouldn't be too fond of Halo 2 Vista either. It's definitely the most feasible time to do it now, but there are still going to be some issues.

 

 

Those groups are a very small portion of the competitive community so that isn't a very good reason not to do it. Also if the numbers were there, a lot of them would suck it up and attend, even if it was just to showcase their OG skill to the masses.

 

This is the only way Halo will ever gain a large interest again - 343's track record has ruined anything new for Halo - no one cares about H5.

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Those groups are a very small portion of the competitive community so that isn't a very good reason not to do it. Also if the numbers were there, a lot of them would suck it up and attend, even if it was just to showcase their OG skill to the masses.

 

This is the only way Halo will ever gain a large interest again - 343's track record has ruined anything new for Halo - no one cares about H5.

 

There really isn't a big portion of the Halo CE community. I think an actual event could at least pull in 30-40 teams of 2, but our community is just so split between what they enjoy and what they'll support. Most of those Halo CE guys wouldn't really bother with Halo 2 or Halo 3, and I don't see many of the 2/3 guys really wanting to play CE. While I understand that these groups are small parts of a larger Halo community, that small group is the group that is dedicated and would show up. Our community isn't as supportive as other games, and I just don't put faith that our community would be willing to play in all games. Most of them would rather play in only a single game tournament.

 

I mean it's a good idea and something i threw around for a while, even prior to MCC.

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Although I'm a Halo 2 kid it would be Rad if Team Beyond or someone else started a CE 2v2 League and used donations they got to support the prize pot. I've been getting into CE the more I play it on MCC. The game is just so rightly paced and the skill gap is Huge, I freaking love it.

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