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Drazin

Switching the competitive scene to a different halo game?

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I disagree. Ranks are super fun, and I can do it in my bedroom with people I like to play with on the other side of the globe vs people who really want me to lose. And I can do this any time of the day. ranks make any game better

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I think we should just return to the original trilogy - CE, H2 and H3 were all standout games in their own right, and all still have many diehard fans. In fact I would go so far to say that every current Halo fan is one because of one of these title, not because of Reach/H4/MCC.

 

I say run Original Trilogy tournaments, where MLG gametypes from all 3 games are used, and titles are put on rotation. ie 2 best of 5's would look something like:

 

1. CTF Battle Creek (CE)

2. TS Sanctuary (H2)

3. OB Guardian (H3)

4. KOTH Damnation (CE)

5. TS Midship (H2)

 

1. CTF The Pit (H3)

2. TS Hang 'Em High (CE)

3. CTF Warlord (H2)

4. KOTH Construct (H3)

5. TS Rat Race (CE)

 

 

Skill gap maximum

Interest maximum

Winning maximum

 

Not a big fan of this idea just from a tournament organizer's view point. It'd be very difficult, and I've tossed around the idea of a "Halo EVO" before. I haven't really thought about switching up the games during the same round or tournament though, and figured it was best if there were multiple tournaments for each game. One thing I do like about this is that I would love to see how Halo pros and gamers in general stack up on multiple games. Halo CE, 2 and 3 play pretty differently from each other. I've always liked the idea of who was the "best overall team" and have them play multiple shooters.

 

Love this idea, learning and mastering the 3 best halos and watching all 3 games played at once would definitely spark my interest. 

 

Agree with this 100%. I remember in the reach days i see a comment that says Ranks will save halo reach, why is there no ranks? and another comment saying f**k bloom and sprint i hate this shit im quitting halo... Like you said the cores mechanics have to be good, ranks would definitely help the game but it cant make the game successful by itself. 

 

Glad I'm not alone. I like all those sprinkles, whipped cream, chocolate fudge and caramel on my ice-cream, but there has to be SOME ice-cream first.

 

 

I disagree. Ranks are super fun, and I can do it in my bedroom with people I like to play with on the other side of the globe vs people who really want me to lose. And I can do this any time of the day. ranks make any game better

 

Makes sense, I would love playing a terrible dog shit game as long as I had some numbers next to my name. I think it's that type of prioritization that helped dilute our series. Obviously you don't care how bad the games mechanics are as long as there are ranks.

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I disagree. Ranks are super fun, and I can do it in my bedroom with people I like to play with on the other side of the globe vs people who really want me to lose. And I can do this any time of the day. ranks make any game better

 

I don't think anyone can disprove that but the game itself has to be good, if the person playing it doesn't find it fun then there is no reason to play it even if it has ranks. If that wasn't the case then that means you would find any game that has ranks fun, and if that's true then you must also play Cod,Starcraft,league,CS:GO hearthstone etc? 

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Those two h3 events were ten times better and had far more hype though despite less teams. Didn't the second h3 event have 16? You're right that initially the population for tourneys will be smaller when you switch to older games because of the reasons you listed, however given time I am confident that the quality of the games will bring in more teams than a shoddy game will ever bring in. Melee proves this. Wish they'd do it with sf3.

Yeah I did say we got 16 the event after, although I think 3 of those were on the day makeshifts

I wasn't saying the event was worse, from a spectator pov it was very entertaining, however the lack of teams just proved that despite everyone wanting the old games to come back, no one was willing to actually play them at an event, it was pretty much the exact same people who were at the H4 events coming to the H3 ones still, so imo it was pointless.

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I don't think anyone can disprove that but the game itself has to be good, if the person playing it doesn't find it fun then there is no reason to play it even if it has ranks. If that wasn't the case then that means you would find any game that has ranks fun, and if that's true then you must also play Cod,Starcraft,league,CS:GO hearthstone etc? 

what if i do...? cod dont have ranks tho

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Not a big fan of this idea just from a tournament organizer's view point. It'd be very difficult, and I've tossed around the idea of a "Halo EVO" before. I haven't really thought about switching up the games during the same round or tournament though, and figured it was best if there were multiple tournaments for each game. One thing I do like about this is that I would love to see how Halo pros and gamers in general stack up on multiple games. Halo CE, 2 and 3 play pretty differently from each other. I've always liked the idea of who was the "best overall team" and have them play multiple shooters.

 

A LAN tourney with all 3 games (halo evo) split up would make sense to me. I think halos community is VERY split on what halo they want to play, I mean i see people saying CE all the way but theres still people playing reach? If only there was a way to combine all the good halos (1-3?) and put them all in the competitive scene and let the community pick what game they want to compete in.(Huge way to gain population for the halo community, lots of players would come back to h1-3 imo) OR have all 3 games played in a match still sounds good to me to make the "best overall team" a reality. Either way both options sound a lot better to me then playing or watching h2a at this point lol

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"CE has the best maps out of any Halo game." That is an opinion.[/size][/font]

 

It actually is a fact that CE's map design adds more to the game's competitive merit than any other halo game.

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It actually is a fact that CE's map design adds more to the game's competitive merit than any other halo game.

Nope.

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Not a big fan of this idea just from a tournament organizer's view point. It'd be very difficult

 

How would it be difficult? we have all 3 on the same disk, all you do is chose the game, map and gametype.

 

The only difficult thing would be filesharing all the gametypes, but that's just called being organised

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It actually is a fact that CE's map design adds more to the game's competitive merit than any other halo game.

 

 

Nope.

 

explain how having tuned powerups in set locations on fast timers that encourage movement is not competitive logfish.

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explain how having tuned powerups in set locations on fast timers that encourage movement is not competitive logfish.

No I agree with you. However, what is competitive to you or me might not be considered competitive to somebody else. It's not objective therefore it's not a fact.

 

Keep trying. I'm sure you'll get this hang of this facts and opinions concept eventually.

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No I agree with you. However, what is competitive to you or me might not be considered competitive to somebody else. It's not objective therefore it's not a fact.

 

Keep trying. I'm sure you'll get this hang of this facts and opinions concept eventually.

 

but it is a fact that faster timers are better than slow ones. that is not opinion; that is logic.

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No I agree with you. However, what is competitive to you or me might not be considered competitive to somebody else. It's not objective therefore it's not a fact.

 

Keep trying. I'm sure you'll get this hang of this facts and opinions concept eventually.

It is a fact that maps designed such that there are more than one viable strategies adds to the game's competitive merit. Think setting up on pink tower is demanding? Try timing 3 different power items that spawn far apart from eachother simultaneously on derelict.

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Man these kind of posts are driving me nuts, even if there becomes some sort of silly movement where everyone talks about/does a ghandi style march to the ce then we are nowhere worse then we were before. I get being openly opposed to things that can be in some way viewed as being harmful but how is encouraging people to play halo anything but good?

 

Anybody who is reading this who has made a post like this please stop, what if some other poster reading this is on the verge of quitting the game and your post is the little grain of rice that tips the scale for them?

I would be happy if they played other games and showed them with their wallets, actually.

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It actually is a fact that CE's map design adds more to the game's competitive merit than any other halo game.

Cite logical proof that establishes this fact or stop.

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but it is a fact that faster timers are better than slow ones. that is not opinion; that is logic.

They're better from a competitive standpoint, but that doesn't necessarily mean people have to like them the most.

 

I know people who fully acknowledge that CE is better suited for competition, yet they prefer playing Halo 3. In their opinion, Halo 3 is a better game. You can apply that same logic here.

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Cite logical proof that establishes this fact or stop.

Take a map like narrows. It has only one dominant strategy- hold top center and spawn trap. Ditto with construct- hold the top part of the map. Sanctuary- hold ring. Midship- hold pink tower. There is only one obviously empowered spot/setup on all these maps.

 

The maps in CE have more than one dominant strategy/setup. Objectivley speaking, maps that have multiple viable strategies are more demanding. The current situation in the game dictates the best places to be on a map in CE, whereas the map design in the sequels demands holding mid/ring/pink/etc... regardless of the situation.

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I know people who fully acknowledge that CE is better suited for competition, yet they prefer playing Halo 3. In their opinion, Halo 3 is a better game. You can apply that same logic here.

It's a better game to not take seriously since it's less suited for competition. When people say "halo 3 is a better game," it wouldn't be so bad as long as the disclaimer above was included.

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Melee is actually not the only example. Starcraft Brood War was a game that pretty much died down to a very small scene once Warcraft 3 was released. Except for South Korea where the game continued to grow and eventually peaked around this point:

hqdefault.jpg

75668-scstadium.gif

 

In 2012, Blizzard released Starcraft 2. Kespa (Korean organization in control of professional brood war) was sued by Blizzard around that time for never paying them anything for using their game. As a result, Kespa and the three major leagues in Korea (two individual leagues run by cable companies and a team league run by both) stuck with BW. Blizzard partnered with GOMtv (online tv channel) to create a Starcraft 2 league.

Blizzard eventually managed to persuade Kespa to switch from Brood War to Starcraft 2 in 2012.

The final Ongamenet Starleague (OSL) for Brood War had this kind of viewership for its' finals:

sW13n.jpg

 

A GSL finals held around the same time looked like this:

finals7.png

 

While both of them had nice crowds, it is obvious that Brood War was still far bigger.

MBCGame (the channel running the MSL and part of Proleague) was shut down in 2011 as the parent company MBC wanted to replace it with a Music channel.

Ongamenet decided to drop Starcraft 2 after 2 OSL's and one season of proleague, as viewership was abysmal and League of Legends started to really grow in Korea.

During all of that, Brood War became an underground game that was mainly run in online leagues with retired pros playing. But one man, known as Sonic, had a dream to revive Brood War in Korea. Now let's take a look at the average viewership at OGN who decided to pick Sonic's Starleague (this is only for the studio part, usually at around 7 p.m. local time on work days):

2vAMMxW.png

 

Point is, it is always possible to return to an older game, especially if it was more popular. Smash is not the only scene, and I truly believe that halo could do the same. Yes we won't get 343 support, but so what? HCS viewership has actually been going down and I think that we could grow the scene from a very small one to something huge (50k+ peak viewers). Yes I'd probably take a while. And yes the debate over which game to play would be huge. I have personally always liked the concept of using CE-H3 in the same series ever since MCC was announced. However, I highly agree with someone who said that the halo meta itself is becoming an issue. I don't know why that is, but people seem to love playing stalemates. Quicker timers might help, but I think that there is a problem in the competitive meta itself. I don't quite get why people are so contend with just setting up on one half of the map and shooting people no shield over and over again, but that is probably one of our biggest issues. It applies to all Halo games besides CE. I complained a lot on here about 343 dictating h2a, but people were always telling me how important dev support was and that we couldn't attract new viewers with older games. Well, dev support didn't help much and we are actually loosing existing viewership atm. Let's ignore 343, get some polls going and choose a game. We have all the games we need in MCC.

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Point is, it is always possible to return to an older game, especially if it was more popular. Smash is not the only scene, and I truly believe that halo could do the same. Yes we won't get 343 support, but so what? HCS viewership has actually been going down and I think that we could grow the scene from a very small one to something huge (50k+ peak viewers). Yes I'd probably take a while. And yes the debate over which game to play would be huge. I have personally always liked the concept of using CE-H3 in the same series ever since MCC was announced. However, I highly agree with someone who said that the halo meta itself is becoming an issue. I don't know why that is, but people seem to love playing stalemates. Quicker timers might help, but I think that there is a problem in the competitive meta itself. I don't quite get why people are so contend with just setting up on one half of the map and shooting people no shield over and over again, but that is probably one of our biggest issues. It applies to all Halo games besides CE. I complained a lot on here about 343 dictating h2a, but people were always telling me how important dev support was and that we couldn't attract new viewers with older games. Well, dev support didn't help much and we are actually loosing existing viewership atm. Let's ignore 343, get some polls going and choose a game. We have all the games we need in MCC.

 

Thats my thought, but saying hey lets switch to an older halo because 343 is a horrible company when dealing with esports is very hard to apply for many reasons. As of right now i would like to know what are all the reasons that make the halo community so fixated on playing the most recent halo no matter how bad the game is competitive wise, and what are the boundaries that are stopping us from switching to a better & more competitive halo(h1-3). (One thing I know for fact why people insist on playing H2a is because with 343's support its much easier to actually run decent tournaments compared to something like AGL) 

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I hate when people use the smash bros arguement.

 

Nintendo hardware is so far behind the times. Even thir new games are dated in terms of visuals so its a lot easier to go back to older smash games.

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I hate when people use the smash bros arguement.

 

Nintendo hardware is so far behind the times. Even thir new games are dated in terms of visuals so its a lot easier to go back to older smash games.

 

I don't think they are talking about visuals, more like the gameplay in said Smash games. I have only ever played Melee, and I loved it. The sequels apparently took away things that made it special, much like Halo did in it's recurring sequels after CE. 

 

To answer OP's question again, I think we should all vote for CE, and then demand that a true sequel to that game is made. At least make a full blown 1080P 60FPS remaster of the multiplayer, maybe with the maps from Halo 1 Final as well.

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I don't think they are talking about visuals, more like the gameplay in said Smash games. I have only ever played Melee, and I loved it. The sequels apparently took away things that made it special, much like Halo did in it's recurring sequels after CE.

 

 

Ya, I understand that. Im saying its easier to go back to older games when they are all very old looking. H5 compared to HCE is a massive visual jump.

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I hate when people use the smash bros arguement.

 

Nintendo hardware is so far behind the times. Even thir new games are dated in terms of visuals so its a lot easier to go back to older smash games.

 

Does that look like a game that should have still been going in 2012? What about Brood War that's still played today?

 

It's part of the problem that people in the Halo community already have the end goal in their sights (growth / status / prestige) before taking care of themselves primarily. Only a very small minority of the Halo community have ever been impassioned enough to stick with the game they truly enjoyed and push that particular scene forward. Everyone else has proved time and time again that they will compromise because they're not willing to muster the effort to go against what is the easier option.

 

It's not easy, but it is still a very do-able thing to do. However in this instance it is not likely happen despite the amount of people that chant the same mantra - talk is cheap.

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Take a map like narrows. It has only one dominant strategy- hold top center and spawn trap. Ditto with construct- hold the top part of the map. Sanctuary- hold ring. Midship- hold pink tower. There is only one obviously empowered spot/setup on all these maps.

The maps in CE have more than one dominant strategy/setup. Objectivley speaking, maps that have multiple viable strategies are more demanding. The current situation in the game dictates the best places to be on a map in CE, whereas the map design in the sequels demands holding mid/ring/pink/etc... regardless of the situation.

Can you give some examples of different setups on a single CE map? You listed examples of linear strategies for h2-h3, but no examples for diverse strategies for h1. I would like to hear them.

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