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Joshua Menke Leaves 343 Industries

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Same! My life for Aiur! Really love the sc2 ranking system for the most part so I'm glad he brought it over to halo.

 

MMR decay and removal of mid-season demotions really ruined SC2's system for me. I enjoy playing all three races and playing on different servers (even Korea despite the 300 ms ping) to enjoy the slight differences in the meta and it just sucks to always come back and be forced to play through a shit ton of noobs to get to your old level again. They also changed how tightly it matches with HOTS, which imo really sucks. In WOL it used to match me with someone exactly my skill level 99% of the time, in hots it feels like there are way more 1 sided stomps.

If he does anything blizzard related, I hope that he reorganizes sc2's system. Not even necessarily reverting all the changes and making it like wol again, just make it as awesome as wol again.

 

That being said I wouldn't worry too much. Menke is just the guy who comes up with the algorithms and divisions/leagues/ranks etc. He has nothing to do with actual implementation and he is actually more of a freelance kinda guy. He goes to a dev who needs a ranking system for their upcoming game and leaves once it's done. In fact, I could easily see him come back for H6.

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I guess I never understood why this guy gets so much praise...Taking a look at his accomplishments, it's mind-boggling to me.  I've only heard goods things about SC2 ranking so nothing to be said regarding that.  It's his work on consoles that, for me he doesn't live up to the hype.  In Blops2, we had league play.  However, the only reason it was really highly respected, was because it was the first in cod.  It had plenty of problems

  • teams of 4 matching singles
  • Once you achieved a Master in any season, you essentially had to go thru your promos, regardless of your win rate and win a single game after that.  Then you were back to master
  • Endless amounts of "Sub-divisions" that seemed to have no rhyme or reason why you got placed in a certain one.
  • ability to easily dashboard out of challenging matches with no penalty
  • Masters could match irons, but it was not extremely frequent.

Just to name a few, I could think of.  The next project he worked on was Halo4 ranking system

  • Ranks only visible on Halo Waypoint
  • Could achieve a 50 in 10 games if you did well enough
  • No skill restrictions whatsoever
  • Every playlist had "ranks", so you could achieve a 50 playing guests.
  • Could back out in lobby to avoid a challenging match
  • see opponents before locks

The next project was MCC.

  • Still absolutely no skill restrictions
  • Can quit games and level up
  • the skill progression is not even close to as challenging as "Halo 2 ranking"
  • Massive level drops or even resets
  • Can search 4s and rank up playing solos
  • see who you're playing before it locks

I appreciate what the guys tried to do for these games, but I don't get what has he really done.  I would rather have Reach Arena (Both Win/loss based and Performance based) over any of the aforementioned systems.  With Arena you could

  • Not see who you were playing until you were in voting screen, which dashboarding netted you a quit. (in Performance, an instant 8th place..in Win/loss a high potential loss)
  • searching in 3s or 4s required you matching another team of 3 or 4.
  • The higher rank you achieved, you actually matched those in either your division or a division above or below you.
  • Your rank reset after every season, making it a challenge to achieve Onyx again.
  • Each division had a percentile to determine where you stood within them, unlike LeaguePlay with arbitrary subdivisions.

I don't need to explain myself with Halo 2 and 3 ranking.  Those worked as they should've.  

TL:DR Why praise this guy?  Anybody else with me on this?

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I guess I never understood why this guy gets so much praise...Taking a look at his accomplishments, it's mind-boggling to me.  I've only heard goods things about SC2 ranking so nothing to be said regarding that.  It's his work on consoles that, for me he doesn't live up to the hype.  In Blops2, we had league play.  However, the only reason it was really highly respected, was because it was the first in cod.  It had plenty of problems

  • teams of 4 matching singles
  • Once you achieved a Master in any season, you essentially had to go thru your promos, regardless of your win rate and win a single game after that.  Then you were back to master
  • Endless amounts of "Sub-divisions" that seemed to have no rhyme or reason why you got placed in a certain one.
  • ability to easily dashboard out of challenging matches with no penalty
  • Masters could match irons, but it was not extremely frequent.

Just to name a few, I could think of.  The next project he worked on was Halo4 ranking system

  • Ranks only visible on Halo Waypoint
  • Could achieve a 50 in 10 games if you did well enough
  • No skill restrictions whatsoever
  • Every playlist had "ranks", so you could achieve a 50 playing guests.
  • Could back out in lobby to avoid a challenging match
  • see opponents before locks

The next project was MCC.

  • Still absolutely no skill restrictions
  • Can quit games and level up
  • the skill progression is not even close to as challenging as "Halo 2 ranking"
  • Massive level drops or even resets
  • Can search 4s and rank up playing solos
  • see who you're playing before it locks

I appreciate what the guys tried to do for these games, but I don't get what has he really done.  I would rather have Reach Arena (Both Win/loss based and Performance based) over any of the aforementioned systems.  With Arena you could

  • Not see who you were playing until you were in voting screen, which dashboarding netted you a quit. (in Performance, an instant 8th place..in Win/loss a high potential loss)
  • searching in 3s or 4s required you matching another team of 3 or 4.
  • The higher rank you achieved, you actually matched those in either your division or a division above or below you.
  • Your rank reset after every season, making it a challenge to achieve Onyx again.
  • Each division had a percentile to determine where you stood within them, unlike LeaguePlay with arbitrary subdivisions.

I don't need to explain myself with Halo 2 and 3 ranking.  Those worked as they should've.  

TL:DR Why praise this guy?  Anybody else with me on this?

He didn't work on MCC.

His ranking system in BLOPS2 basically kicked off CoD Competitive. It get's over 200K at main events.

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TL:DR Why praise this guy?  Anybody else with me on this?

Most of the issues you listed where problems with game design and not so much his work. For the record, he didn't work on MCC's ranks. CSR wasn't a bad system per say, it just had a lot of exploits because it wasn't possible to implement it in-game and had to be done on the website alone (design mistake on 343's part #NotEnoughBandwidth), which left room for exploits until the data did end up reaching the site.

 

Stuff that you listed would have easily been fixed if information was sent server side as soon as players get locked in a game (before you even see who you're being matched up against and can vote on the map). This way, even if they quit out before it does start, they will be penalized as the game registered them "in" and it can be recorded as a DNF. If information isn't sent to the server until the game starts (or ends), that's when it leaves room for exploits.

 

Long story short, you should blame the developers who work on Matchmaking systems and not so much Menke. He's done amazing work and he's extremely knowledgeable about what he does. In that sense, Bungie were also light years ahead of anyone else when it game to tracking in-game data online looking back at Bungie.net when Halo 2 came out, and figured out how to prevent cheesy exploits before they actually hit the game because they're intelligent developers, despite all the shit they get. 

 

Sure they might not have competitive in mind when designing stuff, but they still know what they're doing compared to a lot of other developers out there.

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I guess I never understood why this guy gets so much praise...Taking a look at his accomplishments, it's mind-boggling to me.  I've only heard goods things about SC2 ranking so nothing to be said regarding that.  It's his work on consoles that, for me he doesn't live up to the hype.  In Blops2, we had league play.  However, the only reason it was really highly respected, was because it was the first in cod.  It had plenty of problems

  • teams of 4 matching singles
  • Once you achieved a Master in any season, you essentially had to go thru your promos, regardless of your win rate and win a single game after that.  Then you were back to master
  • Endless amounts of "Sub-divisions" that seemed to have no rhyme or reason why you got placed in a certain one.
  • ability to easily dashboard out of challenging matches with no penalty
  • Masters could match irons, but it was not extremely frequent.

Just to name a few, I could think of.  The next project he worked on was Halo4 ranking system

  • Ranks only visible on Halo Waypoint
  • Could achieve a 50 in 10 games if you did well enough
  • No skill restrictions whatsoever
  • Every playlist had "ranks", so you could achieve a 50 playing guests.
  • Could back out in lobby to avoid a challenging match
  • see opponents before locks

The next project was MCC.

  • Still absolutely no skill restrictions
  • Can quit games and level up
  • the skill progression is not even close to as challenging as "Halo 2 ranking"
  • Massive level drops or even resets
  • Can search 4s and rank up playing solos
  • see who you're playing before it locks

I appreciate what the guys tried to do for these games, but I don't get what has he really done.  I would rather have Reach Arena (Both Win/loss based and Performance based) over any of the aforementioned systems.  With Arena you could

  • Not see who you were playing until you were in voting screen, which dashboarding netted you a quit. (in Performance, an instant 8th place..in Win/loss a high potential loss)
  • searching in 3s or 4s required you matching another team of 3 or 4.
  • The higher rank you achieved, you actually matched those in either your division or a division above or below you.
  • Your rank reset after every season, making it a challenge to achieve Onyx again.
  • Each division had a percentile to determine where you stood within them, unlike LeaguePlay with arbitrary subdivisions.

I don't need to explain myself with Halo 2 and 3 ranking.  Those worked as they should've.  

TL:DR Why praise this guy?  Anybody else with me on this?

 

 

Where did you get this information that he worked on Halo 4 and Halo MCC ranking system?  And if he did, was he allowed to implement what he wanted to implement?  And if you can't find this information, please don't spread misinformation.

 

And for the BOps2 ranking system....

  • To4 matching singles here and there is completely fine, If singles win, it allows them to rank up a lot faster.
  • This is a beauty.  Playing solo on new accounts would take me about 100-200 games to get Master.  Each season after that was Master after the first 5 games, which I loved.  No reason to match a Master-level player with lower levels since it is a waste of time.  Rather, match them with Masters and if they lose de-rank them to the lower division.
  • This was just to break down the population and allow people to reach Master 1 which a lot of people aimed for.
  • Only Pussies back out.
  • This is perfectly fine like to4 matching singles.  It allows Irons to level up quicker and it puts pressure on Masters to not lose, if Masters lose you derank faster for that game.

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Where did you get this information that he worked on Halo 4 and Halo MCC ranking system?  And if he did, was he allowed to implement what he wanted to implement?  And if you can't find this information, please don't spread misinformation.

 

And for the BOps2 ranking system....

  • To4 matching singles here and there is completely fine, If singles win, it allows them to rank up a lot faster.
  • This is a beauty.  Playing solo on new accounts would take me about 100-200 games to get Master.  Each season after that was Master after the first 5 games, which I loved.  No reason to match a Master-level player with lower levels since it is a waste of time.  Rather, match them with Masters and if they lose de-rank them to the lower division.
  • This was just to break down the population and allow people to reach Master 1 which a lot of people aimed for.
  • Only Pussies back out.
  • This is perfectly fine like to4 matching singles.  It allows Irons to level up quicker and it puts pressure on Masters to not lose, if Masters lose you derank faster for that game.

 

 ..  I looked at his timeline and he retweeted this https://twitter.com/mcstrongside/status/499243450559373312 ...so I kinda assumed that's what his role was...So still my question really hasn't been answered as to what he is praised for...Let's be clear, I'm not hating on this guy, I just don't get it.  Which is why I'm asking you guys. (Not sure why the link to a tweet isn't posting, I'm dumb) https://twitter(.)com/mcstrongside/status/499243450559373312

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He's designed or frame-worked some of the best ranking systems we've saw in video games. 

 

Fairly simple

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..  I looked at his timeline and he retweeted this...so I kinda assumed that's what his role was...So still my question really hasn't been answered as to what he is praised for...Let's be clear, I'm not hating on this guy, I just don't get it.  Which is why I'm asking you guys.

 

Yeah and we all know that Halo 4's and MCC's ranking system is not his ranking system in the way he does or wants to do a ranking system.  Halo 5's ranking system is all his and we will see in 11 days what his view of a ranking system is.

 

He is praised for the Starcraft II ranking system... (Which H5 is getting a similar version of).  

 

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Yeah and we all know that Halo 4's and MCC's ranking system is not his ranking system in the way he does or wants to do a ranking system.  Halo 5's ranking system is all his and we will see in 11 days what his view of a ranking system is.

 

He is praised for the Starcraft II ranking system... (Which H5 is getting a similar version of).  

 

Fair enough,  if people are saying he didn't do the ranking for MCC, then who did?  And why when they say "exact same ranking as Halo2", do they mean not at all like Halo2?  I really hope you're right with saying "H5 is getting a similar version of SC2" even if the game is awful.  I've only heard good things, but personally never played it.  So, it's hard to have hope when I haven't played any rewarding matchmaking since 2011 possibly 2012.

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Fair enough,  if people are saying he didn't do the ranking for MCC, then who did?  And why when they say "exact same ranking as Halo2", do they mean not at all like Halo2?  I really hope you're right with saying "H5 is getting a similar version of SC2" even if the game is awful.  I've only heard good things, but personally never played it.  So, it's hard to have hope when I haven't played any rewarding matchmaking since 2011 possibly 2012.

 

We'd have to ask 343 on who the designer for H4 and MCC ranking system is.  For all we know is that Josh Menke was just overseeing someone else's idea being implemented.  Also, MCC ranking system really hasn't had the time to be working as it is due to the MCC problems.  I haven't passed level 10 since launch since I really haven't played due to the MCC issues, which is also the same for other players.  So right now, we have a good amount of potential 40-50 players stuck at level 1-10 which doesn't really showcase the ranking system in place.

 

Once MCC stabilizes and people can play and rank up, then we can see if it really is difficult to rank up or now.  It may be easy now to rank up to level 50 due to no one really being a level 50.  Once more people fill in the level 40-50 levels, the ranking system will take that into consideration and make it harder to rank up.

 

Just hold judgements until you play it yourself honestly.  I don't know if H5 will be good or not, or if the ranking system will actually work for Halo like it worked for SC2.  We will just have to wait and see in 11 days.

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I am quite happy that he left for Blizzard Activision. Place is basically his home.

 

What I find interesting is that he put his Employer as Activision and not Blizzard specifically.  This means we may see a ranking system for Destiny 2 and future CoD titles (AW ranking system is poop).

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Do you think he'll be back for H6 or nah

If 343 needs him, probably. Sounds like he stays just long enough to finish his work and leaves for another job. Doesn't seem like he left on a bad note with 343 either.

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What did he mean don't read into it?

 

I think he means that he's not leaving because 343 sucks, which is probably everybody's first thought when seeing the news of him leaving.

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