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Was Sprint The Real Issue In HR and H4?

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It's been like 2 tournaments in.  I think you overestimate the actual player base of the competitive scene.  If we had a competetive playerbase of LoL or Dota there would be a lot more parity in the top teams.  Right now there are probably only maybe 8 teams that actually practice and play enough to compete at the high level.  There is just no incentive to spend the amount of time required to create a team and practice enough to be at the top level.

Complete truth.

 

After Semi's pretty much vanished after Halo 3, the pro's continued to play and play while the rest of the community dropped off, leaving a huge gap in skill between the rest since not many others were still putting in the games or time to challenge that upper echelon.

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Honestly I HATE when people blame Sprint like its satan. Sprint wasn't this get out of free card people make it out to be, you're loud (making sneaky plays impossible) you are less maneuverable (only being able to go in a straight line with a wide turn), you're guns down (having your gun is kinda important in a FPS), and lastly you're slowed down when shot! And now in H5 your shields don't recharge! Halo 4 and especially Halo (Sucks nuts, most broken Halo Game ever made fuck this shit) Reach

 

Reaches Bloom made the game virtually a coin flip 90% of the time, almost all of the AA where broken, Elite Roll to melee lunge the broken ass armour lock, Heal Shield, I Literally was playing and complaining about every map and my Nefew goes "Which map do you like?" And my reply "Forge" Halo reach had virtually not a single map, and it's compitive maps sucked just as bad! the bland colour pallet made everything kind of blend together on forge maps making it harder tell depth. The grenades where stupid powerful, and stupid easy to use.

 

Halo 4 was fun, a lot of the elements which Reach soured where tweaked and made bearable. Really 4 outside of minor issues (infinite Sprint shouldn't exist in any game period, grenade boost and auto pickup of flags, and ball flinging) was a good game, it introduced a lot of weapons that are extremely competitive (Scatter Shot on LAN, Promethean Nades). Halo 4s main issue was the nip picking and bitching the community did. It made the game unfun, only hearing about how broken it is. The legit issue I have is the map selection but that was changed with DLC.

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<p>

 

Erm... Yes you can. LoL, Dota, CS, Hearthstone and CoD have varying degrees of randomness implemented.

 

OT -

 

Reach

  • No real system for motivation, arena was a very poor substitute
  • No real punishment for leaving games
  • Specifically the difference in effectiveness of Sprint vs base movement speed
  • The implementation of bloom (longest effective kill times) vs increased movement speed

Halo4

  • Literally no system for motivation
  • No real punishment for leaving games
  • Back out glitch ruining games before they even begun
  • Join in progress compounded by the above problems
  • Specifically the difference in effectiveness of Sprint vs base movement speed
  • The worst map selection at launch - awful variety
  • The worst follow up DLC strategy given the launch problems and feedback
  • Boltshot / PP on loadout
If you look at the above lists Sprint is the only game breaking issue that appears to be lingering:

 

Halo5

  • Ranking system confirmed
  • Punishment within ranking experience expected
  • Systems around such as JiP / lobby backout expected to be tightened up - could be legitimized or removed
  • Map selection looks OK, already better than H4 if they just released with beta maps
  • DLC is out of our hands, again beta maps already better than H4 / arguably Reach
  • Loadouts if they're featured shouldn't contain such OP options given the previous lessons learned
  • Bloom if implemented will not be as detrimental given previous lessons learned

I am astonished that anyone today continues to share any positive information from 343 as though it were even remotely resembling fact.

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,..

Yes there's still sprint in it, but what's being told to us is the game is being made with eSports in mind which really never has been said since the beginning of Halo.

Please put this in perspective. What or who is the source of that information?

 

They answered the most important question regarding sprint, WHY. That answer showed us they didn't know what they were doing to make a competitive arena game. Then they retracted.

 

They told us exactly as we remembered... Then gave us PC versions instead.

 

They told us dedis and we discover dedis only when avail.

 

They say a lot of things but I have learned to take everything they say like anyone here who might just guess.

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Please put this in perspective. What or who is the source of that information?

 

They answered the most important question regarding sprint, WHY. That answer showed us they didn't know what they were doing to make a competitive arena game. Then they retracted.

 

They told us exactly as we remembered... Then gave us PC versions instead.

 

They told us dedis and we discover dedis only when avail.

 

They say a lot of things but I have learned to take everything they say like anyone here who might just guess.

 

Yeah, i guess this has repeated itself in the past. Well i say go a long with what's known so far from what they have said until after the beta. If they show they can respond well to our feedback then maybe we have a chance. If they show very little communication with us then i don't see much happening. I'll just keep playing SF and eventually pick up MCC. It'll probably be patched up by the time i get an X1.

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Scatter Shot on LAN

I pretty much disagree with the entirety of your H4 > Reach position, but want to thank you for the little gem I quoted causing me to have a good laugh over my lunch break.

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Halo 4 was fun, a lot of the elements which Reach soured where tweaked and made bearable. Really 4 outside of minor issues (infinite Sprint shouldn't exist in any game period, grenade boost and auto pickup of flags, and ball flinging) was a good game, it introduced a lot of weapons that are extremely competitive (Scatter Shot on LAN, Promethean Nades). Halo 4s main issue was the nip picking and bitching the community did. It made the game unfun, only hearing about how broken it is. The legit issue I have is the map selection but that was changed with DLC.

Halo 4 was a travesty and was not competitive in comparison to other halo's, this isn't even a debate every pro universally agrees with this and has openly stated it in fact, they all agreed halo 4 was not competitive and not fun

 

Next halo 4 was completely broken, in every single facet the game was flawed and i'd love to know what minor issues your referring to

 

  1. the inability to knock people out of scope -
  2. the huge amount of aim assist
  3. the fact grenades don't kill people when they are no shields - look at the last halo 4 tournament it happens virtually every game
  4. the fact the ordinance can come down can kill you - doesn't reward map movement  
  5. the enormous maps - only half decent one was haven and skyline 
  6. the addition of sprint 
  7. the fact two traditional and COMPETITIVE GAME TYPES were ruined
  8. the removal of active camo as a power up 
  9. no ranks
  10. no spectator mode

 

are they the minor issues you were referring to? as they are pretty darn glaring in my opinion, that is not nit picking that is stating a fact and the fact is the game wasn't competitive it wasn't fun and it wasn't halo which can be proven by the tiny population, countless threads and you tube videos from a variety of pro's 

 

reach had two main issues apart from awful maps and no visible ranks (both present in halo 4)which were bloom and sprint which 343 took out of the game in 2012 which made the game skillful halo 4 was anything but

 

also id like to add the very inclusion of sprint means maps have to be enlarged - dont believe me look at midship its larger than it was previously why do you think that it is? therefore this argument of it gets you into the action quicker is flawed as the maps have to be enlarged to accommodate it, the only playlist where sprint is bearable and somewhat useful is btb but since halo is supposed to be an arena shooter i.e 4v4 competitive it has no place. oh and btw since sprints inception the base movement speed has been significantly reduced so again that argument is flawed.

 

Additionally sprint cannot work as the kill times in halo are too slow, in both games where sprint has appeared to date it is possible to escape a situation were you should die thus increasing the kill time - this is also not competitive. As other people have said sprint causes so much more problems than it solves and is virtually impossible to accommodate in halo so it should not be included as it detracts from the game

 

there is no benefit to it being in the game PERIOD! oh and i hope you have a nice day and a splendid evening.

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Halo 4 was a travesty and was not competitive in comparison to other halo's, this isn't even a debate every pro universally agrees with this and has openly stated it in fact, they all agreed halo 4 was not competitive and not fun

 

Next halo 4 was completely broken, in every single facet the game was flawed and i'd love to know what minor issues your referring to

 

 

  • the inability to knock people out of scope -
  • the huge amount of aim assist
  • the fact grenades don't kill people when they are no shields - look at the last halo 4 tournament it happens virtually every game
  • the fact the ordinance can come down can kill you - doesn't reward map movement  
  • the enormous maps - only half decent one was haven and skyline 
  • the addition of sprint 
  • the fact two traditional and COMPETITIVE GAME TYPES were ruined
  • the removal of active camo as a power up 
  • no ranks
  • no spectator mode
 

are they the minor issues you were referring to? as they are pretty darn glaring in my opinion, that is not nit picking that is stating a fact and the fact is the game wasn't competitive it wasn't fun and it wasn't halo which can be proven by the tiny population, countless threads and you tube videos from a variety of pro's 

 

reach had two main issues apart from awful maps and no visible ranks (both present in halo 4)which were bloom and sprint which 343 took out of the game in 2012 which made the game skillful halo 4 was anything but

 

also id like to add the very inclusion of sprint means maps have to be enlarged - dont believe me look at midship its larger than it was previously why do you think that it is? therefore this argument of it gets you into the action quicker is flawed as the maps have to be enlarged to accommodate it, the only playlist where sprint is bearable and somewhat useful is btb but since halo is supposed to be an arena shooter i.e 4v4 competitive it has no place. oh and btw since sprints inception the base movement speed has been significantly reduced so again that argument is flawed.

 

Additionally sprint cannot work as the kill times in halo are too slow, in both games where sprint has appeared to date it is possible to escape a situation were you should die thus increasing the kill time - this is also not competitive. As other people have said sprint causes so much more problems than it solves and is virtually impossible to accommodate in halo so it should not be included as it detracts from the game

 

there is no benefit to it being in the game PERIOD! oh and i hope you have a nice day and a splendid evening.

I had fun with the game period. I Can't say the same for Reach. And as for those things you picked, yeah they're issues, but guess what, I would rather play with them, then an utterly unplayable mess. Not only that,mouth this community enjoys making mountain out of mole hills. Look H2A Bitching about minor issues, that are being ironed out, it's four games with four multiplayer a glitches should be expected. At least it's playable online, it's not Battlefield 4

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I pretty much disagree with the entirety of your H4 > Reach position, but want to thank you for the little gem I quoted causing me to have a good laugh over my lunch break.

 

Reach sucks

 

Halo 4 is atleast somewhat skill based. It's not spam your shots, and throw mini nukes and hope for the best.

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Indie devs usually make the game for themselves in hopes people will like it. It's the same way except they have to follow some guidelines because they're making a triple A title for Microsoft. 

 

I took another look at Midship. Maybe i didn't notice the size too much because of a sprint. But i still don't think it's crazy big or anything. it definitely is bigger though. In that game play video somebody on Str8 Rippin tries to sprint from (what it looks like to be) blue base to P2(was it P2?). And Snipedown got the 4 shot on him before he got to p2. Imagine if those shot actually made him stop sprinting. He for sure wouldn't be able to just sprint to P2 from one of the bases. 

 

 

Edit: I also think top mid should have as much as it does. It should be a good place to want to be, but i think it is a little big. You should only have about one person top mid and should not have as much cover making it difficult to keep the better position. But within in reason. The person should have some type of chance like on Onslaught. 

 

Why bring up indie devs when it's completely different? They should be making the game for the consumers, not what they want to play in the studio based on personal preference.

 

I will reiterate again, there's no point in trying to nerf Sprint to "make it work" when it's obvious that removing it is a much better solution. 

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As for No Sprint No Bloom

 

That ain't Halo Reach, Halo Reach is the game with Bloom, and all the shitty Armour Abilities. The game that the general populace plays. That's Halo Reach!

 

No arguing No Sprint No Bloom was better then 4 but that was a stripped down version of the game, not only that, but needles rifle suddenly becomes a god gun

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I had fun with the game period. I Can't say the same for Reach. And as for those things you picked, yeah they're issues, but guess what, I would rather play with them, then an utterly unplayable mess. Not only that,mouth this community enjoys making mountain out of mole hills. Look H2A Bitching about minor issues, that are being ironed out, it's four games with four multiplayer a glitches should be expected. At least it's playable online, it's not Battlefield 4

wait wait wait hold on you think h2a is a minor issue?

 

H2A released with with countless issues - this is a AAA game  i do not care that there is 4 games in one that was their decision their obstacle to overcome not ours there inability to release a functional game is a failure and is not acceptable, i think it was three weeks in before people could find a game on a semi frequently basis 

 

and before you say it the game still has issues evident by the fact they are repeatedly releasing patches , and yes bravo to them on that  but all of this should have been done prior so people are within their full rights to complain 

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wait wait wait hold on you think h2a is a minor issue?

 

H2A released with with countless issues - this is a AAA game  i do not care that there is 4 games in one that was their decision their obstacle to overcome not ours there inability to release a functional game is a failure and is not acceptable, i think it was three weeks in before people could find a game on a semi frequently basis 

 

and before you say it the game still has issues evident by the fact they are repeatedly releasing patches , and yes bravo to them on that  but all of this should have been done prior so people are within their full rights to complain

 

wait wait wait hold on you think h2a is a minor issue?

 

H2A released with with countless issues - this is a AAA game  i do not care that there is 4 games in one that was their decision their obstacle to overcome not ours there inability to release a functional game is a failure and is not acceptable, i think it was three weeks in before people could find a game on a semi frequently basis 

 

and before you say it the game still has issues evident by the fact they are repeatedly releasing patches , and yes bravo to them on that  but all of this should have been done prior so people are within their full rights to complain

 

There are four games with four engines, you can't predict every thing that's gonna happen! Yes you can load test, and attempt to find every glitch and coding issue! But you can't, they're doing the best they can with continous patches. And they're doing a good job, we can get online and play, yes getting kicked and not finding games is there but they're fixing it!

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It's been like 2 tournaments in.  I think you overestimate the actual player base of the competitive scene.  If we had a competetive playerbase of LoL or Dota there would be a lot more parity in the top teams.  Right now there are probably only maybe 8 teams that actually practice and play enough to compete at the high level.  There is just no incentive to spend the amount of time required to create a team and practice enough to be at the top level.

 

Iron gaming Columbus had 41 teams. The first one had 186 teams. That's more than a decent-enough sample size to prove my point that the same people who were the best in HR-H4 are the best in H2A. 

 

And you're right, there's not enough incentive in competitive Halo right now... but that doesn't really make a good argument of why sprint can't work in Halo.

 

I think that if Halo ever got into the $1M per tournament prize pool range, we'd still see a ton of carryover from the current top pros along with a few new faces from international territories who now see competitive Halo as a real career option. Even with sprint, there would be enough of a skill gap to keep our current and past top pros in the top spots.

 

I'm sure of it.

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Complete truth.

 

After Semi's pretty much vanished after Halo 3, the pro's continued to play and play while the rest of the community dropped off, leaving a huge gap in skill between the rest since not many others were still putting in the games or time to challenge that upper echelon.

 

If no one else can compete in the upper echelon, even if they put in the games/time, then the skill gap is good... and it shows that sprint can work.

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I had fun with the game period. I Can't say the same for Reach. And as for those things you picked, yeah they're issues, but guess what, I would rather play with them, then an utterly unplayable mess. Not only that,mouth this community enjoys making mountain out of mole hills. Look H2A Bitching about minor issues, that are being ironed out, it's four games with four multiplayer a glitches should be expected. At least it's playable online, it's not Battlefield 4

I had fun with reach. I will never say that about h4 (except meta raid... Too funny).

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Reach sucks

 

Halo 4 is atleast somewhat skill based. It's not spam your shots, and throw mini nukes and hope for the best.

It started off with virtually no skill. Ordnance drop destroyed all map control and made it a tiring lap around the map. Rewiring the map was good but it was cheap low hanging fruit and way too late. H4 wound up being a dark footnote in halo history.

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Why bring up indie devs when it's completely different? They should be making the game for the consumers, not what they want to play in the studio based on personal preference.

 

I will reiterate again, there's no point in trying to nerf Sprint to "make it work" when it's obvious that removing it is a much better solution.

From a logical perspective you are correct.

 

From a political perspective you absolutely need to defend it if it was your suggestion and the maps are already set.

 

You would never want to hear you subordinate say "I told you so."

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From a logical perspective you are correct.

 

From a political perspective you absolutely need to defend it if it was your suggestion and the maps are already set.

 

You would never want to hear you subordinate say "I told you so."

But the maps can just be scaled down using the resources they have in the studio. This is what annoys me most about it, Sprint can be removed from H5 in an instant if Josh Holmes says so.

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The whole immersion thing seems like a horrible excuse for game design anyway.  In CS I don't actually want to feel like a CT or T... I just want to kill the other team and complete my objective.  Same argument can be made for SC2, DotA, LoL, etc...

 

It also implies that realistic immersion is the only way to "immerse" a player in a video-game. I guess everyone playing Starcraft, SSB, Mario, TF2, Zelda, WoW, LoL, ect.. are not "immersed" by the universe/gameplay of those games because they are not based on realistic concepts. It really is a total BS answer used to justify making a game more generic. 

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Why bring up indie devs when it's completely different? They should be making the game for the consumers, not what they want to play in the studio based on personal preference.

 

I will reiterate again, there's no point in trying to nerf Sprint to "make it work" when it's obvious that removing it is a much better solution. 

Yeah, but they're still people and they have creative thoughts themselves.  

 

You can keep saying that all you want, but in the end sprint is going to be in the game. There's not much of an argument when 343i seems keen on keeping sprint in it. Regardless of whether or not it's better without it. It's a waste of energy and time to try and get sprint removed from H5g. Focus on making h5 better with sprint or just not worry about H5 and play MCC because if i was still playing Halo everyday that's what i would do. 

 

It would be nice if sprint wasn't in the game, but it is. It would also be nice if we stopped saying "no sprint" and instead worked on making sprint play better since sprint is definitely going to be in H5. 

 

Hitzel already came up with one idea that would help out with the concept of being able to shoot when ever while sprint still existing. He used Murder Miners as an example. It's ideas like these that we need to come up with instead of continuing to preach "NO SPRINT". It's more efficient imo.

 

 

 

 

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Yeah, but they're still people and they have creative thoughts themselves.  

 

You can keep saying that all you want, but in the end sprint is going to be in the game. There's not much of an argument when 343i seems keen on keeping sprint in it. Regardless of whether or not it's better without it. It's a waste of energy and time to try and get sprint removed from H5g. Focus on making h5 better with sprint or just not worry about H5 and play MCC because if i was still playing Halo everyday that's what i would do. 

 

It would be nice if sprint wasn't in the game, but it is. It would also be nice if we stopped saying "no sprint" and instead worked on making sprint play better since sprint is definitely going to be in H5. 

 

Hitzel already came up with one idea that would help out with the concept of being able to shoot when ever while sprint still existing. He used Murder Miners as an example. It's ideas like these that we need to come up with instead of continuing to preach "NO SPRINT". It's more efficient imo.

They have put their creative ideas into the game in the form of Ground Pound and other new features. There's nothing creative about slapping Sprint in there just because it was in the last two games, especially when there's been so much backlash about it.

 

I will fight until the end for no Sprint. I won't bend over backwards for them. If everyone just said "Oh, it's in the beta, just leave it be", 343 would think everyone is content with it and not change anything. We need to voice our concerns if we want to make change. Being silent and accepting it does nothing.

 

I don't know why you're trying to defend Sprint so much. The beta is for changing things after all. They didn't make it one year from launch for the fun of it. It's so that changes can be made.

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Yeah, but they're still people and they have creative thoughts themselves.  

 

You can keep saying that all you want, but in the end sprint is going to be in the game. There's not much of an argument when 343i seems keen on keeping sprint in it. Regardless of whether or not it's better without it. It's a waste of energy and time to try and get sprint removed from H5g. Focus on making h5 better with sprint or just not worry about H5 and play MCC because if i was still playing Halo everyday that's what i would do. 

 

It would be nice if sprint wasn't in the game, but it is. It would also be nice if we stopped saying "no sprint" and instead worked on making sprint play better since sprint is definitely going to be in H5. 

 

Hitzel already came up with one idea that would help out with the concept of being able to shoot when ever while sprint still existing. He used Murder Miners as an example. It's ideas like these that we need to come up with instead of continuing to preach "NO SPRINT". It's more efficient imo.

 

 

 

 

If sprint is in the game, the game is going to suck. Period. 

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If sprint is in the game, the game is going to suck. Period.

You're opinion.

 

Murder Miners has sprint and i have fun playing that game. I have more fun playing Murder Miners than H4 or Reach. I think it's as good as H3, well to a certain extent. H3 is still better considering ranks, graphics, population, etc. But Murder Minders is a game i still have fun with, i don't really run into the problems of H4 or Reach because the things that are implemented in Murder Miners or more balanced out. There was more thought putting those mechanics in the game.

 

They have put their creative ideas into the game in the form of Ground Pound and other new features. There's nothing creative about slapping Sprint in there just because it was in the last two games, especially when there's been so much backlash about it.

 

I will fight until the end for no Sprint. I won't bend over backwards for them. If everyone just said "Oh, it's in the beta, just leave it be", 343 would think everyone is content with it and not change anything. We need to voice our concerns if we want to make change. Being silent and accepting it does nothing.

 

I don't know why you're trying to defend Sprint so much. The beta is for changing things after all. They didn't make it one year from launch for the fun of it. It's so that changes can be made.

True. Putting sprint isn't that creative or original, but it's still their creativity in a sense that they want sprint in Halo considering Halo didn't use to have sprint in the game.

 

You're not listening. I never said "let it be" I said work on it.

 

I'm not for sprint. I've just accepted reality. I believe that constantly saying "no sprint" is a waste of time. It would be more productive to try and have sprint work in the game than trying to have it removed considering 343i has shown us that they are adamant on sprint being in the game. Even though it's hard for you to see sprint working in the game. It's more likely sprint could work in this new Halo than sprint being removed.

 

 

You're right, the beta is for changing things. But something like sprint isn't something they're willing to remove(so it seems). They've made maps around the idea of sprint it.

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You can name 100 things wrong with any Halo besides sprint, However, if you remove sprint no one will give a fuck about the other 100 things. I'm sure that at least 50 of those problems will fix themselves with the removal of sprint.

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