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Was Sprint The Real Issue In HR and H4?

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Erm... Yes you can. LoL, Dota, CS, Hearthstone and CoD have varying degrees of randomness implemented.

 

OT -

 

Reach

  • No real system for motivation, arena was a very poor substitute
  • No real punishment for leaving games
  • Specifically the difference in effectiveness of Sprint vs base movement speed
  • The implementation of bloom (longest effective kill times) vs increased movement speed

 

Halo4

  • Literally no system for motivation
  • No real punishment for leaving games
  • Back out glitch ruining games before they even begun
  • Join in progress compounded by the above problems
  • Specifically the difference in effectiveness of Sprint vs base movement speed
  • The worst map selection at launch - awful variety
  • The worst follow up DLC strategy given the launch problems and feedback
  • Boltshot / PP on loadout

If you look at the above lists Sprint is the only game breaking issue that appears to be lingering:

 

Halo5

  • Ranking system confirmed
  • Punishment within ranking experience expected
  • Systems around such as JiP / lobby backout expected to be tightened up - could be legitimized or removed
  • Map selection looks OK, already better than H4 if they just released with beta maps
  • DLC is out of our hands, again beta maps already better than H4 / arguably Reach
  • Loadouts if they're featured shouldn't contain such OP options given the previous lessons learned
  • Bloom if implemented will not be as detrimental given previous lessons learned

 

Great list btw!! :D

 

But what do those games have in it that is "Random" The bloom is reach was random because if you spammed the gun it would not make the same spread every time. If you are going to compare that to CS then that would not make sense because each gun has a specific spray pattern that is the exact same every time.

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The fact that NBNS Reach was literally a ten times better game speaks to sprint being one of, if not the biggest issue. Obviously bloom was on par with it, but it wasn't in 4 and Sprint was, and it was almost a worse game out of the box. Apart from bloom, sprint was the MAIN thing that made Reach bad. I personally don't give a fuck about "bland and boring color pallets", never have, never will. I didn't mind Onslaught or other forge maps as long as the gameplay was good. Sure, there were other minor issues, but hands down sprint is the biggest problem. 

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Great list btw!! :D

 

But what do those games have in it that is "Random" The bloom is reach was random because if you spammed the gun it would not make the same spread every time. If you are going to compare that to CS then that would not make sense because each gun has a specific spray pattern that is the exact same every time.

There's no point getting off topic too far but every single bullet fired in CS has a random element to it. The first shot fired from any gun, even from static, even if crouched will be randomized. Subsequent shots fired become less accurate / more randomized following a particular pattern but there is still enough deviance to be game affecting. Then you add on increased randomness for movement / jumping e.t.c.

 

It's an active balance mechanic that plays a part in every round of every game (weapon values). Given the way the mechanics interact it is functional but it is absolutely random.

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There's no point getting off topic too far but every single bullet fired in CS has a random element to it. The first shot fired from any gun, even from static, even if crouched will be randomized. Subsequent shots fired become less accurate / more randomized following a particular pattern but there is still enough deviance to be game affecting. Then you add on increased randomness for movement / jumping e.t.c.

 

It's an active balance mechanic that plays a part in every round of every game (weapon values). Given the way the mechanics interact it is functional but it is absolutely random.

From a certain range yes I agree that it is random. But my point was that the predictability for bloom was more random and there was no pattern to it.

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Oh there should not be any doubt that Sprint was THE BIGGEST factor that  destroyed Halo completely, followed closely by things like Flinch, Bloom, No Ranks etc etc.

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Halo 4 was a bad game because there was no reason whatsoever to play it. Not gonna play a boring game for "fun". It was boring because it was unbalanced, had boring maps, had no ranks, no decent progression system (except Doritos and Mountain Dew) and a bunch of other shit that was questionable.

Reach was also doomed the minute Bungie tried to give MP maps a single player meaning. It left us with almost no symmetric maps, which would mean it required amazing balance with competition in mind, which Bungie just didn't care about. The mechanics also nerfed individual players in the sense that you were slow, everything felt heavy and sluggish, randomness and unpredictability was written over every single thing. Arena had some design flaws at the top level and made it boring for good players.

MCC is the proof that a good core can keep people going even if there's no external motivation aside from being good. People love playing just for the sake of playing when the game is great and fun. I could play CE for days and not really care what happens next, I just always seek to improve in ways I can.

Sprint in itself isn't that bad, but it causes a lot of secondary effects on the game, which all put together, deteriorate the experience in a significant way. Could a game be good and competitive with sprint? Yes. But it makes the job a lot harder (requiring better and more experienced development, which 343 isn't) and also takes away from the Halo feel. Choosing to implement it when it's a lot easier not to is a recipe for disaster.

It's overshooting when you should just settle for less and still make it work just fine. MCC proved that wanting too much at once will just cause issues and backlash, and knowing this, 343 still does it the same with Halo 5.

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They really haven't "tried" though. That's something that people aren't taking into consideration, not even a little bit. They didn't "try" to get sprint to work, they just put it in there and that was that lol. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again i'm not saying i want sprint in the game or that it will work. I'm just pointing out some things people don't seem to be taking into consideration at all. 

If you honestly think that Bungie and 343 put Sprint into HR and H4 in the last minute and didn't try and design the game with Sprint in mind then you're very mistaken.

 

They have tried it, maybe not as much for Reach due to it only being an AA option and not a base mechanic like H4's, but it was still planned to be in there.

 

We have tried it for two games. The backlash has been huge against Sprint since the start and now they want us to suffer with it in a third game.

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If you honestly think that Bungie and 343 put Sprint into HR and H4 in the last minute and didn't try and design the game with Sprint in mind then you're very mistaken.

 

They have tried it, maybe not as much for Reach due to it only being an AA option and not a base mechanic like H4's, but it was still planned to be in there.

 

We have tried it for two games. The backlash has been huge against Sprint since the start and now they want us to suffer with it in a third game.

I honestly think Bungie had a lack of interest about whether or not sprint was going to break the map. After all there were things like jetpacks in there as well.

 

343i's Kevin Franklin who is a noob, didn't have the same team as before and the same goals. They've pubicly admitted what their goals were in H4.

 

I think the competitive community has proven that balance and a skill gap is important. I don't think we proved sprint can't work. As we never had the option to try nerf sprint either, but only remove it(which at the time was obviously the better decision anyways).

 

They didn't "try". With the way the games turned out you can't believe they though about the game play like we did. Bungie clearly designed the game to take the advantage away from us and 343i wanted everyone to have "fun".

 

it's just not the same story. It might have the same ending, but so far it's been a different story. Yes there's still sprint in it, but what's being told to us is the game is being made with eSports in mind which really never has been said since the beginning of Halo.

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Yes there's still sprint in it, but what's being told to us is the game is being made with eSports in mind which really never has been said since the beginning of Halo.

 

They say it's being made with eSports in mind but I think that means something different than you seem to think.

 

What I think 343's idea of what "eSports in mind" means - based on what they've shown and said.

 

-Spectator Mode

-League based Ranks

-Seasons (with rank resets)

-Dev Support (cash and awareness)

-Flashy moves like Ground Pound

-Bravo as community liason

-Hiring so called "pro-team"

 

Not one of these is a gameplay improvement but all still can be said to increase the eSports appeal.

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I honestly think Bungie had a lack of interest about whether or not sprint was going to break the map. After all there were things like jetpacks in there as well.

 

343i's Kevin Franklin who is a noob, didn't have the same team as before and the same goals. They've pubicly admitted what their goals were in H4.

 

I think the competitive community has proven that balance and a skill gap is important. I don't think we proved sprint can't work. As we never had the option to try nerf sprint either, but only remove it(which at the time was obviously the better decision anyways).

 

They didn't "try". With the way the games turned out you can't believe they though about the game play like we did. Bungie clearly designed the game to take the advantage away from us and 343i wanted everyone to have "fun".

 

it's just not the same story. It might have the same ending, but so far it's been a different story. Yes there's still sprint in it, but what's being told to us is the game is being made with eSports in mind which really never has been said since the beginning of Halo.

Sprint has hardly been nerfed in H5, though. Yes, your shields don't recharge when you sprint but it's now unlimited use. 

 

They don't need to "try" and make it work in Halo because the same issues will just keep arising. Sprint will NEVER work in Halo. I will repeat this until I'm blue in the face.

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They say it's being made with eSports in mind but I think that means something different than you seem to think.

 

What I think 343's idea of what "eSports in mind" means - based on what they've shown and said.

 

-Spectator Mode

-League based Ranks

-Seasons (with rank resets)

-Dev Support (cash and awareness)

-Flashy moves like Ground Pound

-Bravo as community liason

-Hiring so called "pro-team"

 

Not one of these is a gameplay improvement but all still can be said to increase the eSports appeal.

Right, but they're on the right track then. Now all they need to is work on balancing the game. They have a year.

 

What they need to do with the beta is listen to casuals on whether or not they like the new mechanics(because we know we're not going to be the ones to convince them to completely remove something).

That's the only thing 343i should really listen to from the casuals. Because the casuals will only know if they think it's cool or not. They aren't worried whether or not something is fair because they won't notice all of that.

 

So if the casuals do end up liking these features were stuck with them. Now 343i has to listen to us and figure out a way to make them balanced.

 

So what i mean is, the casual aspect should be fairly simple. It should all be yes or no questions.

 

With us it should a lot more detailed than that. They should be asking questions like "how can we improve on this or what's wrong with it"? And on our side our answers have to be thought out with idea of the mechanics staying in the game because they aren't going to listen to "remove it". They've proven that already.

 

After the beta end we'll find out how much they'll actually listen to us. If it turns out, that yeah they're a bunch of arrogant pricks. Then i'll probably just MCC when i actually by an X1.

 

I don't mind MCC being the game to use for the competitive scene. But i think if H5 can become a lot bigger considering it's an AAA title and it'll most likely sell well(at least more than MCC).

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Sprint has hardly been nerfed in H5, though. Yes, your shield don't recharge when you sprint but it's now unlimited use. 

 

They don't need to "try" and make it work in Halo because the same issues will just keep arising. Sprint will NEVER work in Halo. I will repeat this until I'm blue in the face.

What do you mean it has unlimited use? It's always been like that. You mean there's no wait time to use it again? That would make sense if you could get shot out of sprint. Which is why they really need to throw that in nerf in there.

 

I can see that it can work. Imagine your team has map control on midship. With the paths being slightly longer they wont be able to just sprint under cover. They'll for sure get shot out of sprint first and then they'll be punished for sprinting out there like an idiot instead of playing classic Halo. If the pros were to play with a nerfed sprint like that you would not see players sprinting around every where.

 

Actually not that i think about it more. I think maybe even a little more nerfing could do that trick to teach people not just sprint every where is have a slight cool down time before sprinting again. Nothing significant, but enough to make you think "i probably shouldn't rely on my sprint to get to another part of the map".

 

With nerfs, i think it won't 'cause a problem. Considering the maps have been adjusted. I don't think they're THAT big either. I have not seen one map that looks bigger than The Pit and there was no sprint on H3 or ZBNS. The Pit is definitely one of the bigger maps we've used too and regardless of your opinion that map it worked to at least a certain extent and was reused for Reach.

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What do you mean it has unlimited use? It's always been like that. You mean there's no wait time to use it again? That would make sense if you could get shot out of sprint. Which is why they really need to throw that in nerf in there.

 

I can see that it can work. Imagine your team has map control on midship. With the paths being slightly longer they wont be able to just sprint under cover. They'll for sure get shot out of sprint first and then they'll be punished for sprinting out there like an idiot instead of playing classic Halo. If the pros were to play with a nerfed sprint like that you would not see players sprinting around every where.

 

Actually not that i think about it more. I think maybe even a little more nerfing could do that trick to teach people not just sprint every where is have a slight cool down time before sprinting again. Nothing significant, but enough to make you think "i probably shouldn't rely on my sprint to get to another part of the map".

 

With nerfs, i think it won't 'cause a problem. Considering the maps have been adjusted. I don't think they're THAT big either. I have not seen one map that looks bigger than The Pit and there was no sprint on H3 or ZBNS. The Pit is definitely one of the bigger maps we've used too and regardless of your opinion that map it worked to at least a certain extent and was reused for Reach.

Yes, I mean no wait time.

 

So many factors of the game get worse when Sprint is present. Map design is one major one. Just because Sprint is in there, no matter how nerfed it is, still stretches maps out which are just horrible to play on in a 4v4.

 

Why keep trying to nerf Sprint when it just doesn't work and it could be taken out? I don't understand what a really nerfed Sprint is actually doing to benefit the game? Please answer that.

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Yes, I mean no wait time.

 

So many factors of the game get worse when Sprint is present. Map design is one major one. Just because Sprint is in there, no matter how nerfed it is, still stretches maps out which are just horrible to play on in a 4v4.

 

Why keep trying to nerf Sprint when it just doesn't work and it could be taken out? I don't understand what a really nerfed Sprint is actually doing to benefit the game? Please answer that.

Because they want it in there. It's their game. If they want it in there, they can do as they please.

 

I think were facing with life problems and that is "life isn't always fair" and that "you don't always get what you want".

 

I understand that it would be the more simple decision to have it completely removed, but they aren't. So i'm trying to think of ways to make it work instead of trying to argue against something that's not going to happen no matter how much you argue it.

 

Anyways, i think you're only imagining Halo as it was in Reach and H4. You're not picturing a Halo where the maps have been better thought out and a greatly reduced sprint.

 

As is, the game definitely needs work. There's no argument there. Whether are not it could be won't be seen until 343i shows that they'll actually listen to us which i hope they prove they will after the beta.

 

If not fuck h5g lols. At least there's MCC.

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Because they want it in there. It's their game. If they want it in there, they can do as they please.

 

I think were facing with life problems and that is "life isn't always fair" and that "you don't always get what you want".

 

I understand that it would be the more simple decision to have it completely removed, but they aren't. So i'm trying to think of ways to make it work instead of trying to argue against something that's going to happen no matter how much you argue it.

 

Anyways, i think you're only imagining Halo as it was in Reach and H4. You're not picturing a Halo where the maps have been better thought out and a greatly reduced sprint.

 

As is, the game definitely needs work. There's no argument there. Whether are not it could be won't be seen until 343i shows that they'll actually listen to us which i hope they prove they will after the beta.

 

If not fuck h5g lols. At least there's MCC.

But who are they making it for? This was Bungie's mistake as a Halo developer as time went on. They kept making Halo's for them and not for the people who actually gave them all a pay check.

 

You don't design a game for your own studio, you design it for fans because they are the customers. A chef in a restaurant doesn't cook food that he likes, he cooks food that the customers will like.

 

I've seen H5 footage and the maps look enormous for 4v4, especially Midship. You can't design a map with Sprint without messing it up and making it huge. It's completely detrimental to the game, that is why I and many others are so against it because you simply can't balance it in a game where the kill times aren't instant.

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03n5szV.jpg

 

The whole immersion thing seems like a horrible excuse for game design anyway.  In CS I don't actually want to feel like a CT or T... I just want to kill the other team and complete my objective.  Same argument can be made for SC2, DotA, LoL, etc...

 

I totally thought about making this meme a few days ago.  Well done.

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bloom was a good idea. it stopped people from just mashing the trigger. it made crouch a lot more useful, especially in gametypes with no radar.also you had to focus on more than just aiming and how fast you could pull the trigger was based on how close you were. the dmr was a good weapon with cross mapping abilities. sprint isn't a bad idea but thats as far as halo should go with mobility. as long as the sprint isnt unlimited and your slowed while sprinting and taking damage, especially running towards the damage (like gears of war). halo 4 could have been good, but along with the sprint they put in a bunch of other changes. cant drop flags, throw oddball way to far, ordnance drops (a big part of halo is to control power weapons). the only things that should not be ever changed is how power weapons are obtained, 4 shot kill, default loadouts, and objective stuff listed above. btw halo 4 slayer on mcc is actually enjoyable, they changed most of that

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03n5szV.jpg

 

The whole immersion thing seems like a horrible excuse for game design anyway.  In CS I don't actually want to feel like a CT or T... I just want to kill the other team and complete my objective.  Same argument can be made for SC2, DotA, LoL, etc...

good gameplay keeps players, immersion, like graphics, won't matter after a day of playing.

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Well, I preface this by saying, I don't care for Sprint, but I don't absolutely hate it either. I don't feel it's as game breaking as some put it, but it needs to be limited. I'm only speaking from my POV and Halo playing preference, so I'm sure it won't reflect a majority opinion on anything. After playing Halo 4 for a couple of years, and even with MCC problems, playing with no sprint just feels so much better, and I, of course, like it more with no sprint. 

 

But, I think the main problems, as far as population drops and such, lie with no in-game ranks and map selection. When I switch my Xbox from my monitor to my TV for split screen in Halo 4, you literally could only play a handful of maps without the frame rate issues and nearly all the big maps just felt laggy. It got boring quick, especially when Haven was the only good map out of the bunch, but that gets old quick, it's sad when you pray to play Abandon. Same with Reach, I only liked Countdown, and the rest were shit. I never played Halo 2 online during its heyday, but Halo 3's slayer rotation was a lot better, and it didn't feel like it was getting old, you nearly always had a new map to play on. Maps are only part of it, I primarily play H2A even with limited map selection, because of ranks. 

 

Now, ranks, to me, the biggest issue. I only like to play ranked playlists, because without a rank, it just feels empty. That's why, even though H1 and H2C feel so much better than H2A, I still primarily only play that because it's ranked right now. It gives me something to shoot for. It promotes repeat play, and coming back to "get your 50". Even with Reach, the settings and maps sucked, but I still primarily played arena, because it was a league based ranking system, no matter how bad it was instituted. I liked getting my Onyx badge, although it wasn't really too hard to accomplish even with someone with average skill, like myself. 

 

Now back to sprint and all the other crap like custom loadouts that 343 & Bungie obviously brought over from COD, and it's the same argument with the ADS in Halo 5(which I will play the beta) but I will not buy it under any circumstance, because I'm not playing Halo with a smart scope, ADS whatever you want to call it, I'll stick with MCC. If it's toggle-able to the real Halo scope, I may consider it. Either way, a 343 employee(I believe) posted on here not too long ago, and he was very right on a couple of things. Mainly, the expectation of Sprint and other crap being included in the game. I've only known Halo starting in FPS games besides the Goldeneye days in N64, but as far as online it's been Halo. So, like many of you, I don't care for sprint and all the other crap that's added. BUT, we're not the majority anymore, and for 343 to really make a dent in the COD population, they have to make it like it. Kids these days grew up on COD, and ARE expecting to be able to 'run' and choose their own weapon. I know this from personal experience. My cousin and his friends came by to try out MCC, and several of them kept asking me "How come I can't run" "How come I can't change my class" " How come I can't customize". 

 

For Halo's population to survive, it needs that 'casual' crowd that are expected all this other crap to be included, whether it says Halo on the box or not, they don't care, but they have an expectation. 343 knows, they have all the die-hards, whether we like the game or not is of no consequence, we're going to buy the game, and if we don't like it, we will just complain and hope the next one will be the one to 'save' us. So, I can understand why they included sprint and all the other BS in the first place. It's purely business, not because the don't get it. Doesn't mean I like it either, just that I understand why, and basically expect it to be in all future Halo's. 

 

So Sprint, for better or worse, might as well be taken off the table, it's basically a non-argument, because no matter how much hell we raise, they're going to do what they want to do, and Sprint is here to stay.

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it made crouch a lot more useful

Why is that good? Players should be encouraged to move to speed up the game, not to stop moving thus slowing the game pace.

 

Bloom was awful. It turned gun fights into a coin toss.

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But who are they making it for? This was Bungie's mistake as a Halo developer as time went on. They kept making Halo's for them and not for the people who actually gave them all a pay check.

 

You don't design a game for your own studio, you design it for fans because they are the customers. A chef in a restaurant doesn't cook food that he likes, he cooks food that the customers will like.

 

I've seen H5 footage and the maps look enormous for 4v4, especially Midship. You can't design a map with Sprint without messing it up and making it huge. It's completely detrimental to the game, that is why I and many others are so against it because you simply can't balance it in a game where the kill times aren't instant.

Indie devs usually make the game for themselves in hopes people will like it. It's the same way except they have to follow some guidelines because they're making a triple A title for Microsoft. 

 

I took another look at Midship. Maybe i didn't notice the size too much because of a sprint. But i still don't think it's crazy big or anything. it definitely is bigger though. In that game play video somebody on Str8 Rippin tries to sprint from (what it looks like to be) blue base to P2(was it P2?). And Snipedown got the 4 shot on him before he got to p2. Imagine if those shot actually made him stop sprinting. He for sure wouldn't be able to just sprint to P2 from one of the bases. 

 

 

Edit: I also think top mid should have as much as it does. It should be a good place to want to be, but i think it is a little big. You should only have about one person top mid and should not have as much cover making it difficult to keep the better position. But within in reason. The person should have some type of chance like on Onslaught. 

 

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Sprint was an issue but I don't think it was the biggest issue with the previous titles, I felt like was the biggest issues of reach were bloom, bleed-over, and map design.

 

Halo 4 had more issues than reach did in my honest opinion, reach added in all this 'cheese' and Halo 4 built upon it, too many insta-kill weapons in the sandbox, the removal of descope which also lowered the skillgap, and adding in all these perks and things which started to complicate the simple formula that was the legacy prior. Sprint was strong at launch because of these issues and also the bad map and weapon balance, which took 6 months and more to "Fix" to where the game became playable (Somewhat) 

 

The problem with a lot of games lately is the effort is "Too little, too late" 

 

No Beta's, which has really lowered the amount of feedback people have been able to give until the game is already out and irritating people. 

 

When there is feedback, the companies react to it so slow or don't react at all. (And by the time they do, people have already ditched it.) 

 

With that all being said, I think 343i is at least trying with this Beta for Halo 5 and maybe, just maybe... IF we complain enough during it, we might be able to help them forge an amazing game by the time it actually releases. If not? The Division will be out soon. 

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For all of you who say there is no way sprint can work in Halo - how do you explain the fact that EVERY Halo game with sprint had pretty much all the same top placing players as we're seeing in h2a?

Forget about the retired pros who came back, and the ones who got hired at 343.

HCS is showing us that people who were at the top in HR and H4 are also at the top in H2A. How does that translate into not working?

If it didn't work, random-ass teams would be getting top placings but that was obviously not the case.

So while many of you do not prefer sprint, it is actually indeed not much more than a preference. So why can't we just admit that?

The fact is that it not only can sprint work, but the past 3-4 years of tournament placings proves THAT IT ALREADY DOES.

I challenge this forum to show me ONE major tournament across HR-H4 where a random unknown team snuck into a top 4 placing because of sprint.

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For all of you who say there is no way sprint can work in Halo - how do you explain the fact that EVERY Halo game with sprint had pretty much all the same top placing players as we're seeing in h2a?

 

Forget about the retired pros who came back, and the ones who got hired at 343.

 

HCS is showing us that people who were at the top in HR and H4 are also at the top in H2A. How does that translate into not working?

 

If it didn't work, random-ass teams would be getting top placings but that was obviously not the case.

 

So while many of you do not prefer sprint, it is actually indeed no much more than a preference. So why can't we just admit that?

 

The fact is that it not only can sprint work, but the past 3-4 years of tournament placings proves THAT IT ALREADY DOES.

 

I challenge this forum to show me ONE major tournament across HR-H4 where a random unknown team snuck into a top 4 placing because of sprint.

 

 

These are really my thoughts when someone try's to bring up the skill gap argument. My K/D has basically been the same 1.3-1.4 across all the Halo's with it being a touch higher in Halo 3 and trending downward. The same few players won at Halo 4 as they did before it. 

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For all of you who say there is no way sprint can work in Halo - how do you explain the fact that EVERY Halo game with sprint had pretty much all the same top placing players as we're seeing in h2a?

 

Forget about the retired pros who came back, and the ones who got hired at 343.

 

HCS is showing us that people who were at the top in HR and H4 are also at the top in H2A. How does that translate into not working?

 

If it didn't work, random-ass teams would be getting top placings but that was obviously not the case.

 

So while many of you do not prefer sprint, it is actually indeed not much more than a preference. So why can't we just admit that?

 

The fact is that it not only can sprint work, but the past 3-4 years of tournament placings proves THAT IT ALREADY DOES.

 

I challenge this forum to show me ONE major tournament across HR-H4 where a random unknown team snuck into a top 4 placing because of sprint.

 

 

It's been like 2 tournaments in.  I think you overestimate the actual player base of the competitive scene.  If we had a competetive playerbase of LoL or Dota there would be a lot more parity in the top teams.  Right now there are probably only maybe 8 teams that actually practice and play enough to compete at the high level.  There is just no incentive to spend the amount of time required to create a team and practice enough to be at the top level.

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