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Was Sprint The Real Issue In HR and H4?

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No, not at all. It definitely was one of the causes though. 

I think the biggest issue was the developer's mind set. There was a lack of thought when implementing new mechanics and even old mechanics.  The games were overall poorly designed. 

I've said this already. Bungie wasn't looking to make the most competitive game, nor were they really thinking about MLG because, i mean the majority of maps that were in the game were all shit like Sword Base and Boardwalk. 

 

343i told us straight up that they wanted to make Halo accessible to everyone. They did it by sacrificing balance, competitiveness and game play. They were more concerned with making it "cool" and "fun"(like balance and fun can't coexist lol). It seems like they weren't really thinking about the consequences of putting this garbage in. It was the wrong approach.

 

Now they are trying it a little different. They still want to make this game "cool" and "fun" for the casuals, but they also want to make the game have a skill gap(or so it seems). It seems if they implement something like sprint they are considering how they cam make it work in the game instead of just throwing it in and telling us to "deal with it". I mean somewhat they are still doing that by putting sprint in, but they're a AAA title. Every AAA FPS has sprint in it. They're a business that works for MSFT. They believe it needs to stay in the game. So they're trying to balance sprint in the game. That means not being able to charge your shields while sprinting, being shot out of sprint before you hit top speed( really think you should stop sprinting regardless of what speed you're at).  

343i sees that "eSports" is something can make money off. They are considering the spectators by putting spring and Spartan abilities in the game, but also considering the competitor by nerfing sprint, being punished for incorrectly using SAs(actually i don't know whole lot about the SAs i only know of what Goldenboy said about them in those game play videos). 

I don't think sprint is the worst thing that can happen to this new "Halo". With sprint in the game i still think this game can be competitive. It's a possibility. I'm not saying it WILL, but i'm imagining a game where you can punish kids for using and abusing sprint. 

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I still don't know why you are so closed minded though. :/ Not trying to be rude but saying sprint doesn't work and will never work is not a way to go about things. So far it looks like the maps are built around the abilities that the Spartans have and I don't think we will be able to get rid of them but altering them is always possible. The other 2 games that included sprint had MANY problems with them and that included sprint because in H4 and Reach it wasn't balanced and in Reach it was a pickup and not a core ability.

 

The fact that you are going into the H5 with the statement "Sprint will never work" is not a good sign. You should give everything a chance before you assume it will be bad. You can't go off videos, you can't go off hear say, you have to play the game for the amount of time we have our hands on it and make a fair assessment. I don't know how you feel about the other abilities but I think it adds a new meta to the game in my opinion

He's not being closed minded.

 

The problem here is we're playing with the word sprint. When you say sprint are you talking about a mechanic which increases speed and lowers weapons? Then we know it will always be bad for Halo because there is an inherent problem when those characteristics are part of the mechanic.

If you're talking about sprint in a vague sense where it could be changed so much that it wouldn't even be recognisable as the mechanic we currently refer to as "sprint", then you're not really talking about the same mechanic any more.

 

And I completely disagree with this idea that we can't judge any particular mechanic until we've played the game. It's a simple formula: do we know how we want the game to play? Check. Do we know enough about the mechanic to know whether or not it will maintain how we want the game to play? Check.

Playing the game is not necessary when we know the specifics of the feature. Do I need to play Halo before I know that an invincibility perk (that one has to purchase through Waypoint) would be bad far Halo? Of course not.

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What I find silly about people wanting Sprint, or any other mechanic, is it because it is "natural" or "realistic" (this was on Waypoint, obviously). Seriously, who would want realism to be in Halo?

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He's not being closed minded.

 

The problem here is we're playing with the word sprint. When you say sprint are you talking about a mechanic which increases speed and lowers weapons? Then we know it will always be bad for Halo because there is an inherent problem when those characteristics are part of the mechanic.

If you're talking about sprint in a vague sense where it could be changed so much that it wouldn't even be recognisable as the mechanic we currently refer to as "sprint", then you're not really talking about the same mechanic any more.

 

And I completely disagree with this idea that we can't judge any particular mechanic until we've played the game. It's a simple formula: do we know how we want the game to play? Check. Do we know enough about the mechanic to know whether or not it will maintain how we want the game to play? Check.

Playing the game is not necessary when we know the specifics of the feature. Do I need to play Halo before I know that an invincibility perk (that one has to purchase through Waypoint) would be bad far Halo? Of course not.

Yes I can see your point here but the Invincibility perk is a little extreme and I believe everyone thought it was stupid when we used armor lock in Reach haha

 

But the game is very different when you add in all the other abilities as well. What is your stance on them being in the game?

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Realistically speaking, blaming any one element in a blanket attempt at identifying the issue is a poor attempt at logic at best.

 

However, ideally speaking, such an element, which we have determined to have a negative impact on the game itself, existing at all should be identified as a problem to be rectified, not as something to be overlooked merely because it wasn't alone.

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Yes I can see your point here but the Invincibility perk is a little extreme and I believe everyone thought it was stupid when we used armor lock in Reach haha

 

But the game is very different when you add in all the other abilities as well. What is your stance on them being in the game?

The whole point of using an extreme example is to make the principle obvious to someone who isn't seeing it with a more subtle example. The point being that it's entirely possible to know that a mechanic is bad without playing the game, as long as you know how it will impact the game. An invincibility perk is a perfect example because it's immediately obvious how it would impact the game.

 

My stance on the other abilities is basically this:

Ground Pound - I think I'd like it if it only worked on direct contact and had some other changes to it

Clamber - Severely reduces importance of good jumping skill, and I think jumping is important for Halo

Stabilizers - Hand holding in the same way that ADS does in CoD, only the reduced movement is vertical. Not good

Smart-Scope - Ugly and covers the screen unnecessarily. I don't think it will even achieve its goal of "getting all the CoD kids on board so we can all play Halo together and live happily ever after!"

Charge - I don't see why a player should get increased lunge range (and automatic homing in on the enemy) at the click of a button as a default trait. More gimmicky hand-holding. Could be argued that Ground Pound isn't much different, but the difference for me is that Ground Pound at least requires the player to aim and carries quite a hefty price for failure

Sprint - The balancing mechanic makes it a little better and I'm happy about that, but it doesn't fix all of sprint's problems

Thruster - I like this but I think it needs to have a longer cool-down time

Slide - I'm completely fine with this

 

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The whole point of using an extreme example is to make the principle obvious to someone who isn't seeing it with a more subtle example. The point being that it's entirely possible to know that a mechanic is bad without playing the game, as long as you know how it will impact the game. An invincibility perk is a perfect example because it's immediately obvious how it would impact the game.

 

My stance on the other abilities is basically this:

Ground Pound - I think I'd like it if it only worked on direct contact and had some other changes to it

Clamber - Severely reduces importance of good jumping skill, and I think jumping is important for Halo

Stabilizers - Hand holding in the same way that ADS does in CoD, only the reduced movement is vertical. Not good

Smart-Scope - Ugly and covers the screen unnecessarily. I don't think it will even achieve its goal of "getting all the CoD kids on board so we can all play Halo together and live happily ever after!"

Charge - I don't see why a player should get increased lunge range (and automatic homing in on the enemy) at the click of a button as a default trait. More gimmicky hand-holding. Could be argued that Ground Pound isn't much different, but the difference for me is that Ground Pound at least requires the player to aim and carries quite a hefty price for failure

Sprint - The balancing mechanic makes it a little better and I'm happy about that, but it doesn't fix all of sprint's problems

Thruster - I like this but I think it needs to have a longer cool-down time

Slide - I'm completely fine with this

 

Ok but what if sprint is not there? The entire game would change correct?

 

Clamber-  would still work

Stabilizers- Would still work

Ground Pound- Would be easy to hit people because they can't run. I guess they could thrust so maybe it isn't so bad

Charge- Wouldn't really make sense now

Thruster- Would still work

Slide- Would be awkward without the run

 

Again I am not promoting sprint but just showing that the game is built with it in mind and they will not take it out because it would screw up the system that they have been trying to build

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Bloom and Sprint in Reach yes,

Sprint in 4 yes. 

 

Obviously the games had other negative factors, but so did halo 3 and I still had a good time on that, bloom and sprint RUINED halo for me. 

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I have always thought sprint was an ok mechanic and my preferred load out. I have seen jet pack as a necessary evil for one or two maps but even then sprint was good enough most times. Armor lock was nasty.

 

But sprint had negative impact on how maps were large; and though I loved it as a super lunge and a handy escape that made me more confident to try different pushes, I can see how much better the game can play without sprint.

 

Personally I see sprint as not the killer issue. I see its affects as more of an issue (larger maps) but still not the killer. Reach did well though not as well as h3.

 

OD and too many carelessly created weapons killed halo 4. The game depth came to a sudden stop. There wasn't any at all. The games became boring after the first minute. Sprint I think had little to do with killing h4. The map sizes had more impact. The quality of map had even more killing impact on the game.

 

But I am convinced random ordnance made the game a complete boring lap around the track. Who would stick around a boring experience?

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Bloom and Sprint in Reach yes,

Sprint in 4 yes. 

 

Obviously the games had other negative factors, but so did halo 3 and I still had a good time on that, bloom and sprint RUINED halo for me. 

I really think you're overlooking many features by blaming it mainly on sprint and bloom. The melee system was also the dumbest melee system in history of Halo. No matter how many shots you put on the opponent, if they still had shields your melee would only break their shields. THEN the next melee would kill. You spawned with multiple choices of Armour Abilities, kill times were slow, poor map design, poor ranking system. Of course bloom was a HUGE reason too. The game was clearly designed to take away the advantage of the better player. H4 had those same problems, but i don't think they were exactly trying to take away the advantage, but definitely tried to make it fair for everyone by trying something different.

 

Even with what MLG and the rest of the community tried doing with Reach's custom options, the game was still garbage. Those other flaws still existed. Melee system, bloom, slow kill times, , maps, etc. It wasn't till 343i gave us those options in customs and we were able to make a better Reach, a game more like Halo. I didn't start playing again til the MLG has ZBNS. I had to re-buy it because i sold me first copy. 

 

I know people like to blame sprint, but it was the combination of all of the flaws in those games that made Halo: Reach and H4 suck. It wasn't just sprint. 

 

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The only way sprint can work in an arena shooter is if you can be knocked out of it by being shot at followed by a cooldown penalty.

 

Otherwise, sprint will never be anything but detrimental to an arena shooter.

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The only way sprint can work in an arena shooter is if you can be knocked out of it by being shot at followed by a cooldown penalty.

 

Otherwise, sprint will never be anything but detrimental to an arena shooter.

 

That is a good idea.

 

You should post that as feedback when the beta launches in 2 weeks.

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Sprint is the real issue with Halo 5.

 

Sprint may draw out engagements by being used as a crutch, and it may stretch maps out to BTB proportions but it's main problem for me is that it highlights that 343 doesn't give a shit what the fanbase wants.

 

It might not have been the main cause for the decline in HR or H4 but so far it's responsible for a decline in a game that isn't even out yet.

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Sprint is the real issue with Halo 5.

 

Sprint may draw out engagements by being used as a crutch, and it may stretch maps out to BTB proportions but it's main problem for me is that it highlights that 343 doesn't give a shit what the fanbase wants.

 

It might not have been the main cause for the decline in HR or H4 but so far it's responsible for a decline in a game that isn't even out yet.

 

That is a good point. Your focus is keen. Screw the game play, it's the fact that we are love with a game and the guardians of that game don't care at all about us. I can see how that feeling alone can do more damage to the game than large maps, get out of jail free, etc.

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Ok but what if sprint is not there? The entire game would change correct?

 

Clamber-  would still work

Stabilizers- Would still work

Ground Pound- Would be easy to hit people because they can't run. I guess they could thrust so maybe it isn't so bad

Charge- Wouldn't really make sense now

Thruster- Would still work

Slide- Would be awkward without the run

 

Again I am not promoting sprint but just showing that the game is built with it in mind and they will not take it out because it would screw up the system that they have been trying to build

But slide can go too, ya?

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Sprint itself is pretty lame, but the real issue is that it impacts other areas of the game.

I could argue that many of the other things people hate are directly or indirectly caused by sprint.

 

 

 

Ground Pound- Would be easy to hit people because they can't run.

 

The Rocket Launcher in Halo 4 had buffed projectile speed so it could compete at the newly increased ranges.

We could do the exact opposite for Ground Pound, make it slower.

 

 

 

But slide can go too, ya?

 

I had an idea.  Maybe (probably) a stupid idea, but I'm throwing it out there.

If we removed slide, couldn't we just make it so crouching after moving retains momentum for longer than it does now?

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He's not being closed minded.

 

The problem here is we're playing with the word sprint. When you say sprint are you talking about a mechanic which increases speed and lowers weapons? Then we know it will always be bad for Halo because there is an inherent problem when those characteristics are part of the mechanic.

If you're talking about sprint in a vague sense where it could be changed so much that it wouldn't even be recognisable as the mechanic we currently refer to as "sprint", then you're not really talking about the same mechanic any more.

 

And I completely disagree with this idea that we can't judge any particular mechanic until we've played the game. It's a simple formula: do we know how we want the game to play? Check. Do we know enough about the mechanic to know whether or not it will maintain how we want the game to play? Check.

Playing the game is not necessary when we know the specifics of the feature. Do I need to play Halo before I know that an invincibility perk (that one has to purchase through Waypoint) would be bad far Halo? Of course not.

 

I'd agree with him and say some of these people are being close minded. They are so stuck on making it like "classic" Halo they can't picture a different style of shooter. 

 

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I still don't know why you are so closed minded though. :/ Not trying to be rude but saying sprint doesn't work and will never work is not a way to go about things. So far it looks like the maps are built around the abilities that the Spartans have and I don't think we will be able to get rid of them but altering them is always possible. The other 2 games that included sprint had MANY problems with them and that included sprint because in H4 and Reach it wasn't balanced and in Reach it was a pickup and not a core ability.

 

The fact that you are going into the H5 with the statement "Sprint will never work" is not a good sign. You should give everything a chance before you assume it will be bad. You can't go off videos, you can't go off hear say, you have to play the game for the amount of time we have our hands on it and make a fair assessment. I don't know how you feel about the other abilities but I think it adds a new meta to the game in my opinion

I'm not being close minded, it's been tried twice now. It doesn't work so idk why it would suddenly make Halo good in a 3rd time, especially now that it's unlimited.

 

I was never talking about H5, either, just specifically about HR and H4 due to your thread title. For H5 beta, I will try it for sure, but I'm 99% sure that it won't work because I have years of first hand experience with Sprint in Halo.

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Sprint ruined Halo. Most other awful aspects that emerged, emerged from sprint being added. It fundamentally changed the core halo experience. End of story. Mark my words that Halo 5 will go the same rough 4 and reach went. The populations will decline sharply after 3 months or less. I would also like to mention that shitty ass ranking systems also ruined halo and I bet this new ranking sytem in 5 will fail as well. I am just praying that they fix the MCC so I can just play that forever and run customs, that's all i need. They are trying to appeal to new kids but why play a shitty clone of COD when you can just pay the real thing...? Makes no sense to me, and most people will realize it soon after launch.

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I'm not being close minded, it's been tried twice now. It doesn't work so idk why it would suddenly make Halo good in a 3rd time, especially now that it's unlimited.

 

I was never talking about H5, either, just specifically about HR and H4 due to your thread title. For H5 beta, I will try it for sure, but I'm 99% sure that it won't work because I have years of first hand experience with Sprint in Halo.

They really haven't "tried" though. That's something that people aren't taking into consideration, not even a little bit. They didn't "try" to get sprint to work, they just put it in there and that was that lol. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again i'm not saying i want sprint in the game or that it will work. I'm just pointing out some things people don't seem to be taking into consideration at all. 

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Sprint is the real issue with Halo 5.

 

Sprint may draw out engagements by being used as a crutch, and it may stretch maps out to BTB proportions but it's main problem for me is that it highlights that 343 doesn't give a shit what the fanbase wants.

 

It might not have been the main cause for the decline in HR or H4 but so far it's responsible for a decline in a game that isn't even out yet.

I don't even know why we expect much support from the developers. Haven't we lacked communication with developers since the beginning of the series? We have little history working with the developers. Why would you think they all of a sudden should feel obligated? I mean don't get me wrong they should since we are buying the game, but i mean they are making a AAA title. It's like trying to tell Hollywood how to make a good movie. It's a little different when it comes to games, but that same thing happens in the video game industry. 

 

With that said i do expect more support because THEY'RE the ones who are talking about making the "eSports in mind". If they want to do that they should definitely listen to the community. Because we're the ones who were about "eSports" this whole time.

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Bloom was such a huge problem on so many different levels that I think it out weighs the sprint for the game. You can't add "random" factors into a game and have it be competitive.

Erm... Yes you can. LoL, Dota, CS, Hearthstone and CoD have varying degrees of randomness implemented.

 

OT -

 

Reach

  • No real system for motivation, arena was a very poor substitute
  • No real punishment for leaving games
  • Specifically the difference in effectiveness of Sprint vs base movement speed
  • The implementation of bloom (longest effective kill times) vs increased movement speed

 

Halo4

  • Literally no system for motivation
  • No real punishment for leaving games
  • Back out glitch ruining games before they even begun
  • Join in progress compounded by the above problems
  • Specifically the difference in effectiveness of Sprint vs base movement speed
  • The worst map selection at launch - awful variety
  • The worst follow up DLC strategy given the launch problems and feedback
  • Boltshot / PP on loadout

If you look at the above lists Sprint is the only game breaking issue that appears to be lingering:

 

Halo5

  • Ranking system confirmed
  • Punishment within ranking experience expected
  • Systems around such as JiP / lobby backout expected to be tightened up - could be legitimized or removed
  • Map selection looks OK, already better than H4 if they just released with beta maps
  • DLC is out of our hands, again beta maps already better than H4 / arguably Reach
  • Loadouts if they're featured shouldn't contain such OP options given the previous lessons learned
  • Bloom if implemented will not be as detrimental given previous lessons learned
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