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Was Sprint The Real Issue In HR and H4?

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I posted this in the Halo 5: Multilayer Beta Thread but I want to get some real responses for this question and would like to know everyone's opinion on it because I am very interested to see what the community thinks.

 

Droid, on 15 Dec 2014 - 3:16 PM, said:snapback.png

I'm speaking on what I see. Do you believe that a majority of these forums are excited that Halo 5 is even farther from classic Halo? We have had two Halo titles step away from the formula and it is FACT that the general Halo population has dropped dramatically since the release of these titles. Maybe third's time the charm, but I'm going off what we can observe, and that is Halo 5 is not going to be received well.

 

VinFTW, on 15 Dec 2014 - 3:31 PM, said:snapback.png

And you have a right to an opinion that should be respected. I just think the way you are wording things makes it sound like you already know the future and your opinion is fact. 

 

I'm gonna keep an open mind.

 

Sprint is not ideal sure, but who knows if that was the real and ONLY reason behind Halo's decline. There are SO many other things that made Reach and 4 bad too. 

I actually firmly agree with this statement. All of us point to how sprint in Reach and Halo 4 killed the game but what about the other changes?

 

Reach for example had terrible maps for competitive play compared to H3's. You also have to take into consideration the game looked very bland when it came to color pallet and style they used. If the game looks boring and unappealing, that has an impact on people watching and playing.

 

Then you also had sprint along with other armor abilities. Sprint was not originally supposed to be for everyone to have off the start of the game so that actually has an impact on how the maps were designed.

 

Finally the last two issues where bloom and no ranking system (Arena doesn't count). Bloom added randomness to the game and that is so bad for competitive play. Also there was no reason to play any playlist besides "Arena." There was no incentive for me to get on and play the "MLG playlist." Nothing happened when you quit in game and you could never guarantee that you wouldn't get a random person playing the game FOR THE FIRST TIME! That was so frustrating.

 

Yes the game was great with no sprint and no bloom but remember the maps were originally designed for people without sprint to still be able to get around because as I stated before, the game was not built with the "Everyone has sprint off the start" in mind. So that is a reason why the maps still worked when we took away sprint.

 

Even though Halo 4 was a terrible game. I still think it could have been good even with sprint if they would have stuck to actual halo mechanics that not only make the game have a higher skill gap but more competitive and fun to watch. I listed the biggest problems below.

 

+Ranks

+4 shot BR,

+"Better Maps",

+No auto pickup of ball or flag, Being able to drop flag, No flag indicator when you held the flag,

+Being able to play KOTH, Not being able to throw oddball ALL THE WAY across map,

+Descope, and of course ordinance drops for weapons and power-ups killing you (well to be honest.... just them being there was a problem).

 

So, yes these games were very bad in the eyes of our community but was it just sprint that was the problem? I feel like we are so focused on sprint that we are over looking some of the other major problems that plagued those games.

 

What do you guys think?

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I definitely feel like the player is dwarfed by the map size in both games, Reach by far is the worst in terms of map size. Who else felt the compulsion to quit out of a Spire match?

 

The average map size, in Halo Reach, is about a Campaign Segment -- because several of them ARE campaign level chunks, even Reflection and definitely Spire, Sword Base. Trying to combine the two isn't original nor is it functional. Having any AA's that make you invincible for any amount of time should never happen, Armor Lock be damned. Sprint is a major contributor, and detracts from strategy.

 

Halo 4's maps have bad control factors, too many areas that promote idling without any real strategy. Take Adrift and Vortex for example. Halo 4's Map Geometry is worse than Halo Reach's. Spartan Ops' was an abomination and felt more like a Fire Fight ripoff. Vehicles are made of tissue paper, and never got buffed outside of specialization perks. Again Sprint is a major contributor, and having unlimited Sprint accessible at all is just as game breaking.

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Yes, sprint was the real issue - it's effects run much deeper than "get out of jail free card".

 

It will still be a problem in H5 but to a much lesser extent due to the strong penalization. I still think it shouldn't be unlimited though.

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Yes, sprint was the real issue - it's effects run much deeper than "get out of jail free card".

 

It will still be a problem in H5 but to a much lesser extent due to the strong penalization. I still think it shouldn't be unlimited though.

You really think the main issue was sprint and not the glaring issues I mentioned?

 

 

None of the Halos were bad for just one reason, but sprint is a big one. 

But why? The biggest changes came from many different angles. Why is sprint the only one we are really focusing on?

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Poor map/weapon design, mediocre MM, piss poor ranking/progression system, lack of options, and some horribly implemented mechanics.

 

Sprint is stupid, but not Satan.

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Reach had worse problems (Armor Lock, not a single good disk map, bloom, killtimes), but sprint was definitely a problem especially in the MLG settings.

 

In H4 it was one of the top 3 issues, and the fact that it was impossible to remove without modding the game (thanks Obama 343i) was an absolute joke.

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Poor map/weapon design, mediocre MM, piss poor ranking/progression system, lack of options, and some horribly implemented mechanics.

 

Sprint is stupid, but not Satan.

That is what I am trying to say. I know the game would be better built w/o sprint but if that is the only big complaint..... I am fine with it as long as it is balanced to the best of its ability. I know it is not the ideal position but I hope the game is fun and competitive when we play the beta. The maps and campaign are built around sprint so I don't think they will remove it but from what we have seen so far.....

 

+descope is back

+Way harder to aim

+A league based rank system........ that is awesome

 

I wish we could have seen some objective games but I hope juggling the flag is there, KOTH works haha, Oddball is playable, and to be honest I hope Extraction is in here because that is the only great thing to come out of H4 xD

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But why? The biggest changes came from many different angles. Why is sprint the only one we are really focusing on?

Sprint completely altered the way halo was played, as a consequence of sprint being played the following alterations had to be made:

 

  • Maps were increased to allow this increased movement speed making them less competitive and essentially turning a traditional 4v4 game into a 6v6 as the maps were by in large not able to incorporate 4v4 style gameplay, 
  • It made kill times have to be faster like in 4 as in reach they were ridiculously long  as people could now just run away before youd get near killing them  
  • The radars distance has also been increased to incorporate sprint to where you can see a player coming on your radar far more than you could in older halos making it more difficult to makle flanks and be sneaky                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             But that's not all sprint was also introduced in reach without a balancing mechanic i.e people could sprint full speed whilst being shot making the game far less strategic and ruining map positioning. It also gave players a get out of jail free card and reduced the skill gap significantly as a result. This was was some what resolved in halo 4 although they introduced a perk where players could sprint indefinitely which just ruins map flow as they can traverse competitive maps like skyline in seconds which makes objective game modes like ctf extremely chaotic . 

sprint also i wont say destroyed close quater combat but significantly reduced it as people can now sprint double melee and sprint away (in both games there are ways to do this without being stopped or slowed down by bullets and in h4 kill times werent altered till have way through the game meaning this was extremely effective)

 

emmm lets see what else does sprint effect: well i suppose you could say spawns but that more reflects 343's incompetence as in h4 you could die respawn and kill the person who killed you before their shields had even recharged but again thats 343 being 343 

 

There are other ways sprint has negatively effected halo some which i simply cannot recall due to tiredness but there are countless forum threads about the subject these are just the main ones for me 

 

But your right it wasnt the only problem however i feel sprint causes more problems than it solves as halo with such "long" kill times cannot accommodate sprint without drastic changes to game-play 

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My argument against sprint in halo 5 will forever be why work hard to try and balance something that doesn't improve gameplay but makes it worse? Logically it should be left out.

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I would call sprint the primary issue and then bloom and flinch as the respective secondary issues.

 

Maps, ranking systems, etc are all window dressing in comparison.

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Primary issue yes, but when the dev team think that it's acceptable to put Sprint in Halo in any shape or form, other bad ideas will obviously make their way in. The games design is flawed when the person calling the shots doesn't understand Halo properly. 

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The real issue of HR and H4 was that the game did not function like a Halo game should. The biggest part of this was in how movement works because map control and movement are central to how Halo works and what sets it apart from games that are designed to just be random run and guns like CoD. 

 

Sprint destroys structure in map movement, meaning it destroys how movement works in Halo, meaning it causes Halo to not function like a Halo game should. 

 

So yes

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Primary issue yes, but when the dev team think that it's acceptable to put Sprint in Halo in any shape or form, other bad ideas will obviously make their way in. The games design is flawed when the person calling the shots doesn't understand Halo properly. 

My question is "Is it possible to have sprint and still be a good Halo game?"

 

If you look at HR and H4. Both of these games had many more problems than just sprint being there and I don't think you can say "Sprint was the cause of poor map design or it was the cause of people not playing for very long." There are many factors that go into map design that I do not have a full understanding of but it should be possible.

 

What I am saying is that we have a different team working on Halo 5 than the previous Halo 4. Yes there are new abilities and what not but everything else is there that makes Halo.... Halo

 

We have not had an actual good Halo game that had mechanics from H1-H3. All we have had is half-a**ed games that don't have the feel of Halo. We point our fingers at sprint because it is easy to do to be honest. It is the "biggest change" in most eyes of the community but what if the game is good with sprint though?

 

Most are saying that it is not possible but what if it is and we just don't know it?

 

Did people leave HR and H4 because of sprint? I know a lot of my friends didn't and they left because

A. Nothing to play for (Ranks)

B. Terrible Bloom System and awful weapon balancing/ no descope/ terrible OBJ.

C. Almost no good maps in either game. Halo 3,in my opinion, had some of the best designed maps from an aesthetic prespective.

 

I know I am going to be hated for this but I feel like it should be asked... what if it works? 

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Sprint wasnt the main problem in either game, it was actually the other mechanics that they put around sprint that didnt mesh well together. In Halo Reach we eventually took sprint out ourselves because it was dumb for a player to make a bad decision or mistake and you couldnt punish them for it because they only way to shoot somebody sprinting away was to literally sprint after them. The bloom was a mechanic that it took till the end of 2010 to get taken out.

 

In halo 4 it was a combination of sprint, no descope, and shitty maps that were not competitive. There is a way to make sprint work in a Halo game but the developers would literally have to change the whole mechanic field of Halo just to get sprint to work and at that point its not even really Halo anymore.

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My question is "Is it possible to have sprint and still be a good Halo game?"

I think it's very possible to have Sprint and still be a great game, just not a Halo game.

 

Case in point: Reach on the MLG circuit in '11, was IMO, the closest you can get to barebones Halo + Sprint (I guess Bloom was still in but eh). The gameplay you could tell was just... wrong. Less map control, less predictability, less significant decision-making.

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The lack of fair starts was a large factor. Halo 5 is fixing this (which I do give 343 credit for), but sprint is definitely the most vital factor. It ruins maps and once the map is out, there's no way of fixing that.

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Biggest Issues:

Reach: Bloom, Sprint, Armor Abilities, and no good maps (sprint)

Halo 4: Armor Abilities, Loadouts, Sprint, No Flag Drop, No Descope, and almost no good maps (sprint)

 

Change isn't bad, not when the change is an improvement or refining the gameplay. The above do not do that and break the core of Halo. there were other issues as well.

 

edit: forgot ranks.

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I think it's very possible to have Sprint and still be a great game, just not a Halo game.

 

Case in point: Reach on the MLG circuit in '11, was IMO, the closest you can get to barebones Halo + Sprint (I guess Bloom was still in but eh). The gameplay you could tell was just... wrong. Less map control, less predictability, less significant decision-making.

Bloom was such a huge problem on so many different levels that I think it out weighs the sprint for the game. You can't add "random" factors into a game and have it be competitive.

 

Biggest Issues:

Reach: Bloom, Sprint, Armor Abilities, and no good maps (sprint)

Halo 4: Armor Abilities, Loadouts, Sprint, No Flag Drop, No Descope, and almost no good maps (sprint)

 

Change isn't bad, not when the change is an improvement or refining the gameplay. The above do not do that and break the core of Halo. there were other issues as well.

 

edit: forgot ranks.

You can't say that the maps were bad because of sprint. That is a cop-out and they were just poorly designed from the start and as someone said before "taken from the campaign." You can't do that when designing xD

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Bloom was such a huge problem on so many different levels that I think it out weighs the sprint for the game. You can't add "random" factors into a game and have it be competitive.

 

You can't say that the maps were bad because of sprint. That is a cop-out and they were just poorly designed from the start and as someone said before "taken from the campaign." You can't do that when designing xD

It was a contributing factor. I'm not saying that's the only reason. It mostly applies to Halo 4. Even Haven was too big.

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It was a contributing factor. I'm not saying that's the only reason. It mostly applies to Halo 4. Even Haven was too big.

 

It was too big, because even with Sprint, you moved far too slow. Walking speed was painful. 

 

That is Sprint's biggest problem. It slows down your Spartan's overall base speed.

 

H5 seems to have rectified that somewhat, but I am still cautious.

 

The maps in H5 seem a lot smaller and better designed compared to 4 also.

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My question is "Is it possible to have sprint and still be a good Halo game?"

Absolutely not, I thought this was well known since the introduction of Sprint in Halo. Take any good Halo game, put Sprint in and the map plays like chaos due to Sprint. Players can get into positions of power with much more ease on OBJ games. Getting 3/4 down doesn't mean as much any more. Slayer games will just be a mess with people getting away from bad positioning etc.

 

Sprint will never work in Halo, period. No question about it.

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Absolutely not, I thought this was well known since the introduction of Sprint in Halo. Take any good Halo game, put Sprint in and the map plays like chaos due to Sprint. Players can get into positions of power with much more ease on OBJ games. Getting 3/4 down doesn't mean as much any more. Slayer games will just be a mess with people getting away from bad positioning etc.

 

Sprint will never work in Halo, period. No question about it.

I still don't know why you are so closed minded though. :/ Not trying to be rude but saying sprint doesn't work and will never work is not a way to go about things. So far it looks like the maps are built around the abilities that the Spartans have and I don't think we will be able to get rid of them but altering them is always possible. The other 2 games that included sprint had MANY problems with them and that included sprint because in H4 and Reach it wasn't balanced and in Reach it was a pickup and not a core ability.

 

The fact that you are going into the H5 with the statement "Sprint will never work" is not a good sign. You should give everything a chance before you assume it will be bad. You can't go off videos, you can't go off hear say, you have to play the game for the amount of time we have our hands on it and make a fair assessment. I don't know how you feel about the other abilities but I think it adds a new meta to the game in my opinion

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