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Batchford

Halo and it's Competitive Future

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I sometimes wonder why anyone would sign up to make game sequels. You make one awesome thing, you might as well abandon it and start a fresh new IP every time.

 

Otherwise you get people who will constantly nag about how the game changed or stayed the same. I cant think of a single competitive fps that people havent complained about. CoD, Halo, Counter Strike, Battlefield, UT. All you can hope is for bigger sales, because your fanbase will turn to s--- after every release.

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For Halo to have a competitive future, it first needs to be a game found to be extremely fun and well presented (Halo 2 or 3) by most people- not just the people on this forum. Otherwise, the community doesn't grow, it's just the same already small amount of people interested in competitive play. If a lot of people are playing the game, then more people become interested in the competitive side of Halo and seep into the community.

I do not intend to turn this into a Halo CE argument thread, but something like a  Halo CE clone wouldn't work. It is not considered extremely fun and well presented by the majority of people. Some of us find it fun, most don't.

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For Halo to have a competitive future, it first needs to be a game found to be extremely fun and well presented (Halo 2 or 3) by most people- not just the people on this forum. Otherwise, the community doesn't grow, it's just the same already small amount of people interested in competitive play. If a lot of people are playing the game, then more people become interested in the competitive side of Halo and seep into the community.

I do not intend to turn this into a Halo CE argument thread, but something like a  Halo CE clone wouldn't work. It is not considered extremely fun and well presented by the majority of people. Some of us find it fun, most don't.

Did you even read the OP?

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Can anyone see competitive Halo improving from H2A? If so, how? Is it simply maps? I don't think we can ever get a game that is more competitive than H2A in the future because that's what our series has regressed to. Halo CE's shift into Halo 2 had shifted the focus of individual skill to team skill, and the 05 season was a rather funny season to watch. Teamwork was pathetic back then, and it took a solid year to see the shift of a 4v4 match with 8 individually talented players to seeing a 4v4 where each team had huge amounts of teamwork. Even from then (06) did they push it to a new extreme in the 07 season. During that time, there was still a balance of team skill/individual skill. From there the series cut whatever individual skill was left in H2 (which honestly wasn't a whole lot besides button glitching) and forced us into a completely team oriented game. I mean, literally forced us.. as in we couldn't even shoot across the map. This regression included weapons/power-ups spawning at slower rates, and left us with some pretty simple areas of "skill" that could shine in Halo. Teamwork was based on positioning, team-shooting, and baiting and switching.. while individual skill seems like it really only rewarded positioning and who shot first. There was no individual way to dominate a game in H3, and really doesn't seem like any way in the current Halo. Yeah, there are plenty of tournaments where one player goes huge in a match, and you can argue that it had a huge effect on the game, but I would disagree. Most matches I can think of are long and drawn out, even with that one player going huge. If anything it kept that team in the game longer...

 

 

 We're playing H2A, a 10 year old version of Halo 2 that has less individual skill required than the classic version. There just isn't any diverse strategies or meta that can come maps that have been played for the last 10 years, in a game that requires low individual talent. Please don't use CS as a comparison because a single player can decimate the entire enemy team, and although each map starts the same, the numbers game alone can create slightly different strategies throughout the game. Halo's is rather constant.

 

To get more specific, I don't see our community growing by following this trend. We can't grow by being completely stagnant, (forging the same classic maps into each version of Halo, fundamentally taking out anything we would need to re-learn) especially when each of the following games in the series take less and less skill.

 

TL;DR competitive halo CAN'T improve unless we allow the game to get deeper than teamshooting and playing peak-a-boo.

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Really depends what you mean by competitive future.

 

If you mean increased events, viewership and competition then HCS will surely force this growth over the next few years. The degree to which this will happen is uncertain, I'd personally guess we'll top Halo MLG numbers based on the increased interest in esports. If you mean competitive future insofar as satisfying the competitive community from a theoretical / mechanical standpoint then that won't happen - plain and simple.

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For Halo to have a competitive future, it first needs to be a game found to be extremely fun and well presented (Halo 2 or 3) by most people- not just the people on this forum. Otherwise, the community doesn't grow, it's just the same already small amount of people interested in competitive play. If a lot of people are playing the game, then more people become interested in the competitive side of Halo and seep into the community.

I do not intend to turn this into a Halo CE argument thread, but something like a  Halo CE clone wouldn't work. It is not considered extremely fun and well presented by the majority of people. Some of us find it fun, most don't.

Bullshit. As someone who sucks, CE is much more fun. Most of my friends who have only played a bit of each game prefer CE. The weapons can actually kill in a decent amount of time, nades are god-tier, vehicles are useful, IT'S FUN AS FUCK FOR N00BS TOO!

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Did you even read the OP?

Yeah. I don't know why you're asking. Did you read the OP?

 

edit: Just noticed you wrote it :lol:

 

Bullshit. As someone who sucks, CE is much more fun. Most of my friends who have only played a bit of each game prefer CE. The weapons can actually kill in a decent amount of time, nades are god-tier, vehicles are useful, IT'S FUN AS FUCK FOR N00BS TOO!

 

Ehhh, maybe...it's hard to say for sure because CE in itself feels so dated and clunky, not as polished as the games released today. Perhaps a game with similar mechanics to CE but polished as a modern game is would be moderately successful. I still guarantee it wouldn't be as successful as a game closer in essence to Halo 2 or 3.

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H2A is a chore to watch (for many reasons)

 

 

so if h5 isn't good it's all over 

I used to be excited watching Halo tournament streams. Even the AGL tournaments were exciting. Now I feel like its punishment to do so.

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Ehhh, maybe...it's hard to say for sure because CE in itself feels so dated and clunky, not as polished as the games released today. Perhaps a game with similar mechanics to CE but polished as a modern game is would be moderately successful. I still guarantee it wouldn't be as successful as a game closer in essence to Halo 2 or 3.

The only thing unpolished about CE is the graphics, and even then they are better than Halo 4's textures.

I can bet my nuts that a game like CE would sell, as it would have Halo in the name mainly.

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I can see your point, but what I'm saying is that I feel Black Tusk has a different design methodology than 343 based on how they've been reacting to and communicating with the Gears fanbase from day 1. Falloutt was moderately critical of Epic's design decisions afaik (mantling, retro lancer OP, etc.), so they could have chosen a more brown-nosing player if they wanted to. BT appears to be more interested in what the players are expecting, at least for now, than they are interested in how they can change it to make sure we all know that it's their game now and not Epics (read: 343 and Halo 4)

 

It is still too early to tell anything, of course. But if the convos that Jack Felling have had with the community are any indication, then they have ears to the fanbase far more than 343 ever has--and far sooner. Also, Rod Ferguson is on board. He was the brains of the original 3 Gears along with Cliffy.

 

EDIT: Dug up a fantastic article on why I believe Gears 4 will be great: http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/1/5958879/gears-of-war-black-tusk-rod-fergusson

It feels like halo

Trust us

Competitive in mind

Pre release MLG tourney

Arena roots

Classic gameplay

Patched reach but still made halo 4. More of the same

Pro hires

Halo fest

 

All the things/buzzwords 343 used. You are buying into black tusk the same as many did with 343. They need to suck upto the fans since judgement and 3 killed off that series.

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It feels like halo

Trust us

Competitive in mind

Pre release MLG tourney

Arena roots

Classic gameplay

Patched reach but still made halo 4. More of the same

Pro hires

Halo fest

 

All the things/buzzwords 343 used. You are buying into black tusk the same as many did with 343. They need to suck upto the fans since judgement and 3 killed off that series.

 

Judgement killed the series. Only thing wrong about 3 was the Retro and Sawed Off.

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Ehhh, maybe...it's hard to say for sure because CE in itself feels so dated and clunky, not as polished as the games released today. Perhaps a game with similar mechanics to CE but polished as a modern game is would be moderately successful. I still guarantee it wouldn't be as successful as a game closer in essence to Halo 2 or 3.

Clunky? It's the fastest halo game, and the smoothest. The ensuing games feel choppy, as reticle magnetism is too high. 

 

And you know what waypoint people complain about? BR starts. In both H2 & H3, the only weapons worth picking up with BR starts are Sniper & Rockets, which everybody hates... you had a reason to pick up any weapon in CE, even with Pistol starts. Fuck, AR had a 1.1 second kill time.

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Competitive Future:

 

National level

- Competition will sustain throughout MCC, but will die with h5. Looks like a fun game, but it is an injustice to call it halo. 

 

Regional Level

- About 2- 3 years of good competitive events. I am from NJ and we have a pretty large scene here in the tri-state. 

 

 

The reason why halo, at least MCC competition, will die is the same reason why ZBNS died- It had no time to prosper- the following game (h4) game out to soon....H5 comes out in less than a year 

 

 

On a side note, i totally disagree with the competitive format for MCC- I hate the fact they only use h2a.

 

I wish they used gametypes from all of the halos- h1,h2a, h2c, and h3.  My envision with the release of MCC is "the ultimate halo player"- i will smack you around in 1, 2, or 3 - They all have their pros and cons, but that is what makes each one unique. 

 

The fact that competitive settings only use h2a is limiting the potential of competitive play and the spectator experience tremendously.... 

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I do not intend to turn this into a Halo CE argument thread, but something like a  Halo CE clone wouldn't work. It is not considered extremely fun and well presented by the majority of people. Some of us find it fun, most don't.

Agreed, barely anyone found Halo CE fun and it never really took off as a big xbox game at all. The kids that do like it ruin the community too.

 

 

 

 

.it's hard to say for sure because CE in itself feels so dated and clunky, not as polished as the games released today.

Yeah, its amazing that a game that came out in 2001 is not as polished as 2014 standards we have today, what were they thinking?

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Can anyone see competitive Halo improving from H2A? If so, how? Is it simply maps? I don't think we can ever get a game that is more competitive than H2A in the future because that's what our series has regressed to. Halo CE's shift into Halo 2 had shifted the focus of individual skill to team skill, and the 05 season was a rather funny season to watch. Teamwork was pathetic back then, and it took a solid year to see the shift of a 4v4 match with 8 individually talented players to seeing a 4v4 where each team had huge amounts of teamwork. Even from then (06) did they push it to a new extreme in the 07 season. During that time, there was still a balance of team skill/individual skill. From there the series cut whatever individual skill was left in H2 (which honestly wasn't a whole lot besides button glitching) and forced us into a completely team oriented game. I mean, literally forced us.. as in we couldn't even shoot across the map. This regression included weapons/power-ups spawning at slower rates, and left us with some pretty simple areas of "skill" that could shine in Halo. Teamwork was based on positioning, team-shooting, and baiting and switching.. while individual skill seems like it really only rewarded positioning and who shot first. There was no individual way to dominate a game in H3, and really doesn't seem like any way in the current Halo. Yeah, there are plenty of tournaments where one player goes huge in a match, and you can argue that it had a huge effect on the game, but I would disagree. Most matches I can think of are long and drawn out, even with that one player going huge. If anything it kept that team in the game longer...

 

 

 We're playing H2A, a 10 year old version of Halo 2 that has less individual skill required than the classic version. There just isn't any diverse strategies or meta that can come maps that have been played for the last 10 years, in a game that requires low individual talent. Please don't use CS as a comparison because a single player can decimate the entire enemy team, and although each map starts the same, the numbers game alone can create slightly different strategies throughout the game. Halo's is rather constant.

 

To get more specific, I don't see our community growing by following this trend. We can't grow by being completely stagnant, (forging the same classic maps into each version of Halo, fundamentally taking out anything we would need to re-learn) especially when each of the following games in the series take less and less skill.

 

TL;DR competitive halo CAN'T improve unless we allow the game to get deeper than teamshooting and playing peak-a-boo.

H2A has pretty much been disliked as a spectator experience by most here. 

 

Im not saying "use CE", but a game where an individual has a huge amount of power and ability to individualize his playstyle is a FAR FAR greater spectator experience (all the biggest esports prove this) rather than watching teamshooting BRs for 15 minutes with very little variation. This is a key reason to why, simply put, Halo in modern times is just not as engaging to watch as other games out there, which has been shown by its viewership (this even dates to 2009/10 days)

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Heres a random thing.

 

343 should be doing their best to expand Halo/the comp scene in regions not called America/UK, kinda helps with that viewership thing.

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MCC killed all of my hype for Halo. I still have a hell of a time when I play the game with my buds, but I am not obsessed with the series any more. I don't want to become a pro, I don't particularly enjoy watching it anymore, and I don't exactly like playing it solo. When you get older you have to choose your free time much more wisely. There are so many other games that get 'most' of it right, to wait for this game to work.

 

Before MCC, I was one of those people worried about a 1 year lifespan. I wanted it to be longer. But now, I wish Halo 5 really was coming out in December.  

I agreed with everything you said except the part about wanting H5 now. Definitely not... 

 

MCC's situation sucks. It totally ruined the hype. I can't believe things still aren't fixed yet, and we're coming up on a whole month of the game being out. They shouldn't have tried to pump it out so quickly, and anyone who throws out the "M$ was pushing them" card... I don't care. You don't agree to do something when you know it isn't doable. It's on 343 just as much as it is M$ that the game was nothing more than a turd with a donut hole inside a green case. 

 

I wish it wasn't so, but I think H5 is going to kill the series. If the beta sucks and there are a lot of suggestions of what to change, and we get word that they aren't listening to feedback, I'm selling my box and completely moving on with stuff that actually matters in life. Halo is a great hobby for me, but if the games are total ass there's no reason for it to have any significant part of my life anymore. 

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It feels like halo

Trust us

Competitive in mind

Pre release MLG tourney

Arena roots

Classic gameplay

Patched reach but still made halo 4. More of the same

Pro hires

Halo fest

 

All the things/buzzwords 343 used. You are buying into black tusk the same as many did with 343. They need to suck upto the fans since judgement and 3 killed off that series.

 

Yeah, true (except the GoW 3 bit--it was polarizing, but far from killing off the series). Well, we have no reason not to be excited for BT's Gears, since they are a completely different company from 343. Cautiously optimistic at this point, as everyone should be. Just because 343 can't get it right doesn't mean we have to be pessimistic about ALL franchise hand changes--after all, KI season 2 is very well done  so far after getting swapped from DH to IG. And the KI reboot itself is incredibly good, although when it first released it lacked modes and characters.

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Uh, you realize why Halo died in the first place, right? 

That really depends on what you mean by Halo dying.  If your talking about the competitive community in which I'm assuming you are there are various reasons why.  If your talking about Halo dying as the premium multiplayer online console shooter, that's very easily explained by just two words, "easier competition".  Majority of players are of course going to play easier games that allow them to not lose as much.  That's common sense.  

 

Competitive Halo's community has died in most part because it generally expected newer Halo's to stay competitively viable when at least the smarter or "leader" individuals of the Halo community should of realized from other older shooters experiences that changes was going to happen to make games more "accessible" to other players and thus slowly take away over time the competitive merit of the game.

 

Good example would be Quake.  Quake Live the current iteration of the Quake franchise is mostly dead since the new patch adding loadouts etc.  The communities response is of course just to abandon the game and move on to either CS or some other relevant shooter.  What should of happened is Quake pro's and other important individuals to rally the community under a single banner and actually try to form a real community built around the love of the older title Quake 3.

 

MLG also didn't help matters for Halo taking so long to accept the ZB ruleset for tournaments when the abomination of Reach was on the circuit.  Someone at MLG or the community should of foreseen since H3's changes that Halo at a competitive level wasn't going to last.  Hell, even I suspected this that every new Halo was just going to get worse and worse.  Just like any other multiplayer driven game I have ever played in general.  Starcraft, Warcraft, Total War, Quake, UT, BF, etc.

 

Competitive Halo died because of both the developers wanting to pander to casuals as much as possible and the competitive community just generally not wanting to pick up the slack and just stick with the older titles that won't change.  Melee's community dealt with TO's losing money, people risking their rent, Melee pro's living worse than minimal wage, and others making huge sacrifices to keep competitive Melee alive after MLG abandoned them after the 06 season.  And they dealt with this until 2013.  That's 8 years of hard brutal bullshit.  The competitive Halo community I don't ever see having the will to do this personally.  I would probably have a heart attack seeing halo players risk rent and bills to help fund and setup tournaments.

 

I can sit here and list a thousand individual reasons why competitive Halo died.  But its not just the developers who are at fault, it's us.  We the community are responsible for not trying to choose our own path that yes of course would be much harder and yes would of required us to make sacrifices.  We are the ones who are ultimately to blame for not making the harder decisions a lot sooner before it was too late. 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I'm a huge fan of your old Halo videos.  But it's not just the developers fault.  The players should of realized that Halo like the vast majority of other online multiplayer games was going to get rid of competitive merit for money.

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You always say that "pros should risk rent" and "sleep in their cars" and stuff

 

I just find that really really odd

 

I agree with everything else you said but c'mon man, that's a little ridiculous

 

That is so unrealistic

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What should of happened is Quake pro's and other important individuals to rally the community under a single banner and actually try to form a real community built around the love of the older title Quake 3.

i think you mean quake world

 

really as much as i love quake i'd rather it die than cling to its dead corpse. it's the only way people will actually be open to moving on

 

as for halo, it should've died about 10 years ago and everyone should've joined the master race. it's not too late

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I hear a lot of people saying Halo CE is the most competitive Halo for individuals. This opinion was just echoed by Walshy, who spoke about his "favorite Halo" in his twitch stream. Now, I played CE when it came out, but never followed the competitive scene, so I don't entirely understand what makes it the best "1v1 and 2v2" Halo, as Walshy put it. So I suppose my question is, does Halo 5 look like it will have ANY of that "a single player's skill can make/break a match"?

 

If not, what would have to change? Might as well realize it now so I can look for it in the beta.

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