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Do we Need Sprint in Halo 5?

Do we Need Sprint in Halo 5?  

328 members have voted

  1. 1. Do we Need Sprint in Halo 5?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      256
    • Waiting to play the Beta
      68


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Who will be the first to vote yes? I feel like I"m waiting for the one dislike on a good youtube vid. 

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NOTE: before the pitchforks come out let it be known that I do not believe that Sprint i.e. that specific implementation of a stamina system is perfect, or even good for that matter. I am simply addressing some of the problems I see with how generally increased movement options are percieved.

 

#1 - Predictability of Enemy Movement.

 

Halo players have a sense of how fast the other team's players will move. Off spawn you immediately know how long it will take someone to go P2 on Midship, or if you're getting pushed you know how quickly your team can be at your side. Sprint completely screws this up. You have a stop-start mechanic of two discrete speeds that your team and the enemy team can travel at, and your ability to actually predict who will be where goes way down.  If you have no idea what I mean by this, check out this video of what happens when you introduce bunnyhopping to Counter-Strike. Predictability goes out the window.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0

What you've linked is the absolute extremes of abuse of the mechanic, a player that is notorious for being accused of cheating due to his fluency with the bunnyhop mechanic. In the vast number of players you experience in game, he is an anomaly which is why it is so effective.

 

It should be pointed out however that if you were to ask any hardcore 1.6 / Source player they would think less of you for trying to remove the mechanic on this basis alone. That is because when weighed up the general complexity of movement that is brought to the game by the mechanic far outweighs the isolated instances of 'abuse' (very loose term given that what he's doing is legitimate, he's just doing it really well). The best illustration of the skill gap created by this complexity is in the video below with two professional taking on a jump map followed by a skilled jumper:

 

Despite CSGO being more rigid and limiting with its movement there are still opportunities every round of every game for players to gain an advantage by practically implementing the movement skills they have developed. There in lies the root cause of Halos need to depart from 'classic', in that there is only so much you can do (in relation to freedom / creativity e.t.c.) with the bare minimum.

 

#2 - Expansion of Maps.

 

Map design is inevitably balanced around sprint. If you have a small arena map and people are sprinting around, the map will feel cramped and gameplay feels artificially fast and chaotic. So you make the map bigger. Now you have a larger map, but with the consequence that it feels empty and vast whenever people are not sprinting. Add in the fact that larger maps = larger engagement range, and you lose some of that immediacy of the combat. This can be countered to some extent by having accurate weapons (so you still feel like you can hit with power at long ranges) but it has never been fully balanced.

The fact maps are poorly designed around Sprint instead of the base movement speed is the issue here. I can play Aerowalk both as a rookie that doesn't know the first thing about bunnyhopping, right up to the most movement relient pro and the map doesn't break down. Then I can play the ported design over multiple versions of Halo with varying killtimes and movement speeds including Sprint yet the map still doesn't break down. Solid design (verticality, control of flow e.t.c.) alongside appropriate map motivation is really what is required more than anything else. 

 

Quake TDM typifies the issues you bring up with Sprint, yet it works splendidly - how is this possible given that the movement options mean players can be almost anywhere at any time and there is a huge discrepancy between base movement speed and increased movement speed?

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If they could give us like 3 days out of the entire Beta without sprint id love to see how much better the game would play #GroundPound.

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you can not just take sprint out for a game designed around sprint

 

the game is being designed around sprint. i think the decesion needs to be made early in development if sprint is going to be included. 

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People like to say sprint is worthy because it is "the norm" in shooter games now. I think they're idiots.

 

But to be more constructive, sprint is one of the major reasons Halo Reach began as crap. A large number continued loving the fuck out of call of duty and made 343/Msoft think sprint should continue being crow-barred into halo. Although Halo 4 was "the most successful Halo yet," it should be pretty obvious sprint played more of a role in keeping the overall population low rather than boosting Halo 4's initial sales. That said, sprint isn't needed in Halo by any means.

 

While the most apparent issue with sprint is running away like a wuss, there's more to it than that. Much of it has been stated multiple times, but why not repeat it?

  • Predictability of movement - Nading someone around the corner or sniping somebody around the corner is a common reward of predicting movement well. Sprint detracts from this skill by making movement much less predictable. If you expect to meet someone around the corner, are you supposed to know if they activate sprint before you find line of sight? They can sprint any time they're not exhausted, it adds an element of randomness to the game.
  • Map Design - "Hey dudes! I like sprint because it takes FOREVER to get across the map without it!"   .......................... "Hey dudes! We have to make our maps larger so they can accommodate sprint!" .............. So, you want to stretch pathways so sprint isn't too quick, consider SaLoT's Pit remake on Halo Reach. Did sprint suddenly solve issues with the bisecting wall? HAHA nope.  ......... Oh, and do you want to scale maps larger to make sprint a necessity?  Go ahead, just remember you're fucking the normal movement speed over. Why would you want to encourage people putting their gun down, turning around, and fleeing like hell, when you can use map memory to back away towards cover, and put shots on the enemy at the same time? THAT is second nature for halo players, and it becomes less potable when maps are scaled larger than they need to be.    Bottom line - Sprint compromises map design no matter how you do it. If there's any secondary movement speed, let it be a well-implemented speedboost powerup.

The only two things I feel like bringing up, but there is also no-radar assassinations, enhanced herp-a-derping in Halo 5, and probably more. Everything about it is simply idiotic.

 

But hey, it's the norm. I guess it's also the norm to ship your product even though it doesn't fucking work whatsoever.

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...

Despite CSGO being more rigid and limiting with its movement there are still opporyunities every round of every game for players to gain an advantage by practically implementing the movement skills they have developed. There in lies the root cause of Halos need to depart from 'classic', in that there is only so much you can do (in relation to freedom / creativity e.t.c.) with the bare minimum.

 

...

One could argue that sprint complicates prediction rather than destroys it. But camber reduces the skill in jumps as opposed to giving us more skills to discover and grow, wouldn't you agree?

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  • Predictability of movement - Nading someone around the corner or sniping somebody around the corner is a common reward of predicting movement well. Sprint detracts from this skill by making movement much less predictable. If you expect to meet someone around the corner, are you supposed to know if they activate sprint before you find line of sight? They can sprint any time they're not exhausted, it adds an element of randomness to the game.

This is quite easily the dumbest argument against sprint possible. Allowing the player to engage in unpredictable behavior is not random. Things like bullet spread, crits, and literally random weapon/powerup spawns are examples of bad random behavior in a competitive game.

 

I don't think sprint ever got a fair shake in the MLG days. It got added to the settings then immediately yanked before the tournament started up again. A lot of forge kids ignored the MLG settings and played 120 sprint customs anyway, because games with sprint were less likely to hit stalemate positions. I have trouble understanding the arguments against sprint, but I never bothered playing Halo 4, so maybe that's what I'm missing.

 

H2A from what little we've seen so far is very slow paced. I'm pretty sure 343's goal is to make it as difficult as possible for a team to acquire a small lead and simply defend for the rest of the game. Is a bunch of new movement mechanics the right way to solve the problem? I don't honestly know, but my oldfag Quaker instincts tell me that Halo's slow movement speed relative the large size of the maps isn't helping. An obtuse mechanic like strafe jumping will never be accepted in any next gen game, so the best you can do is simplify the general idea of how it works into a single button press. All I can tell you for sure, is that Halo is dead in the water as a esport if this problem isn't solved.

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This is quite easily the dumbest argument against sprint possible. Allowing the player to engage in unpredictable behavior is not random. Things like bullet spread, crits, and literally random weapon/powerup spawns are examples of bad random behavior in a competitive game.

 

I don't think sprint ever got a fair shake in the MLG days. It got added to the settings then immediately yanked before the tournament started up again. A lot of forge kids ignored the MLG settings and played 120 sprint customs anyway, because games with sprint were less likely to hit stalemate positions. I have trouble understanding the arguments against sprint, but I never bothered playing Halo 4, so maybe that's what I'm missing.

 

H2A from what little we've seen so far is very slow paced. I'm pretty sure 343's goal is to make it as difficult as possible for a team to acquire a small lead and simply defend for the rest of the game. Is a bunch of new movement mechanics the right way to solve the problem? I don't honestly know, but my oldfag Quaker instincts tell me that Halo's slow movement speed relative the large size of the maps isn't helping. An obtuse mechanic like strafe jumping will never be accepted in any next gen game, so the best you can do is simplify the general idea of how it works into a single button press. All I can tell you for sure, is that Halo is dead in the water as a esport if this problem isn't solved.

 

Sprint makes maps stretched, base movement lower and anything that is used to balance it eliminates the point of it ie Halo 5

 

Sprint is bad, m'kay?

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Sprint makes maps stretched, base movement lower and anything that is used to balance it eliminates the point of it ie Halo 5

 

Sprint is bad, m'kay?

OR

 

You simply implement sprint into the game and leave maps the same size and leave the base ground speed alone

 

If you go adding sprint to the game then double the size of every map, then yeah there's no point. But that's simply bad map design, that has nothing to do with sprint.

 

That's like complaining you bought a car and moved out the city, but now you can't walk to work anymore because of the car. It's not the car's problem, why did you bother moving so far? They have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

 

Like careh was saying about Aerowalk earlier, Aerowalk works at all levels of play because it's a good map. In fact, at the time Aero was designed, none of the movement glitches were discovered let alone possible because you needed a high and steady framerate to do them until this bug was finally fixed in Quake Live. Only certain Quake 3 maps were designed around strafe jumping, and as a little bit of trivia, only 1 mapper at id (the guy who made Campgrounds) intentionally took it into account.

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Obviously no, it isn't needed.

 

In terms of fixing it, removing it and increasing movement speed is the only way. I've seen some sprint supporters say that they'd be fine with this and it's probably because some think Halo is too slow. There's also the misconception of "sprint speeds up gameplay" but being able to move faster doesn't mean gameplay is faster. I remember a 1v1 on Dispatch where I got OS and my opponent just ran away for a minute because it's way too easy to do that in Halo 4. Faster movement =/= faster kill times in the case of sprint. There's also the good point above about how big maps feel empty due to sprint.

 

You have the argument of "every FPS game these days have sprint so halo should too!" but I don't think it's even worth arguing with these people.

 

Halo worked without sprint and Halo 2 and 3 were the top games on their systems until the Xbox servers shut down and Reach came out. We had two bad games and that just about killed halo for a while. Population charts and majornelson.com prove this. If people think you need sprint to attract new fans, that doesn't exactly help (halo 4). Halo 5 will sell millions anyways so they don't need to ruin the gameplay to attempt to sell more.

 

The biggest reason imo why it doesn't belong is because it changes the core so much. We had a game that worked. It played just fine. Other than Halo 3 where movement was pretty slow, Halo really didn't need movement to be drastically changed like this. idk how to explain it but even playing casually I just hate having everyone run around. Like sprint or no sprint I can easily beat bad players but when they're all running around it just makes it more annoying trying to kill them. Still easy but I'd rather not have to chase them around the map. This has been said many times before but it's a get out of jail free card and helps out people with bad positioning. I can give most of the things they're adding to H5 a chance but sprint will always be unneccesary and annoying. Hell, they can put sprint in campaign and I won't mind. Just leave it out of multiplayer if Halo 5 is actually going to be "arena gameplay".

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OR

 

You simply implement sprint into the game and leave maps the same size and leave the base ground speed alone

 

If you go adding sprint to the game then double the size of every map, then yeah there's no point. But that's simply bad map design, that has nothing to do with sprint.

 

That's like complaining you bought a car and moved out the city, but now you can't walk to work anymore because of the car. It's not the car's problem, why did you bother moving so far? They have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

 

Like careh was saying about Aerowalk earlier, Aerowalk works at all levels of play because it's a good map. In fact, at the time Aero was designed, none of the movement glitches were discovered let alone possible because you needed a high and steady framerate to do them until this bug was finally fixed in Quake Live. Only certain Quake 3 maps were designed around strafe jumping, and as a little bit of trivia, only 1 mapper at id (the guy who made Campgrounds) intentionally took it into account.

What would the point be of implementing sprint without stretching the maps? Pretty much none, as you would die as soon as you would do it.

Even in H5, barely anyone sprinted as it's so punishing, which is why I question it even being in the game in the first place.

Sprint does not belong in Halo.

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Not at all halo has never needed it and the worst games in the franchise have sprint. 

Halo works without it, and if we have to compromise on anything ill take thruster pack with the same shield recharge drawback that sprint would have.

Plus sprint always causes maps to be big which is bad for movement.

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If they could give us like 3 days out of the entire Beta without sprint id love to see how much better the game would play #GroundPound.

This is honestly my favorite idea ive read

 

try out both, poll which is better.

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This is quite easily the dumbest argument against sprint possible. Allowing the player to engage in unpredictable behavior is not random. Things like bullet spread, crits, and literally random weapon/powerup spawns are examples of bad random behavior in a competitive game.

 

Thanks for enlightening me, I'm not an idiot. Even if unpredictability =/= randomness, does that mean it's competitively warranted? This reminds me so much of the "forge kids" logic about having the more routes on a map the better (Countdown and its Tri-lift is a good disc map example). It's unpredictable because you don't immediately know which freaking path he'll choose if there is more than one path that accomplishes the same thing. And like with sprint, you don't know when someone you can't see is going to sprint, when they're exhausted, etc. Basically, you have to predict movement with two movement speeds that switch back and fourth on command. It's best to keep mechanics simple (at a balance, moreso). That's what go Halo so far since the beginning.

 

I don't think sprint ever got a fair shake in the MLG days. It got added to the settings then immediately yanked before the tournament started up again. A lot of forge kids ignored the MLG settings and played 120 sprint customs anyway, because games with sprint were less likely to hit stalemate positions. I have trouble understanding the arguments against sprint, but I never bothered playing Halo 4, so maybe that's what I'm missing.

 

I commend you for not playing Halo 4; good choice. If you want to know the difference between Halo 4's and Reach's sprint, basically you sprint slower, sprint longer, and IIRC there is some stopping power as well. Anyways, I'm sorta confused on how sprint didn't get a fair shake. Wasn't it used from v2 - v6? That sounds like more of a fair shake, unless you mean it got yanked right after the introduction of ZBNS. Still though, it was well worth it IMO.

 

H2A from what little we've seen so far is very slow paced. I'm pretty sure 343's goal is to make it as difficult as possible for a team to acquire a small lead and simply defend for the rest of the game. Is a bunch of new movement mechanics the right way to solve the problem? I don't honestly know, but my oldfag Quaker instincts tell me that Halo's slow movement speed relative the large size of the maps isn't helping. An obtuse mechanic like strafe jumping will never be accepted in any next gen game, so the best you can do is simplify the general idea of how it works into a single button press. All I can tell you for sure, is that Halo is dead in the water as a esport if this problem isn't solved.

 

I haven't seen any full gameplay of H2A yet, so I can't comment much on that specifically. While I can agree Halo is getting slower, I'm pretty certain sprint isn't gonna help much, especially if you can run away (Shield timer delay slows things down too). I just wish members of Certain Affinity knew how to design a map at all. A majority of maps are linear, flat, and full of clutter. I have played barely any quake, but I have seen many maps on there through gameplays and they are exactly what Halo needs.

 

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@@Zanno You are mistaken. Sprint was not immediately taken out of competitive settings. It was used for the entire 2011 season versions 2-6. A game resulting in a stalemate isn't no sprint's fault, but rather the how map works.

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I can't wait for the day MCC finally works so I don't ever have to worry about these debates again because i'll be playing H1/H2.

 

This is my opinion of course but i feel a few months after Halo 5's release the population will settle down evenly with the MCC because people will not be interested in abilities and sprint like the newer Halo's seem to offer.

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There is no point in comparing Halo Reach and Halo 4 sprint to Halo 5 sprint. They all functioned differently and they all were or will be played on different maps.

 

Sprint doesn't neccesarily need streched out maps or huge maps either you could have less cover, less duration, sprint with the gun out, etc.

 

Sprint also doesn't have to slow down base movement speed sprint could be implemented in a way where you move 5%, 10%, 20% of base player speed.

 

I don't like comparing Halo Reach to Halo 4 to Halo 5 and having and using a blanket statement like it doesn't belong in Halo 5 because of x,y, or z. You really need to go more in depth. Default Reach had it to where you picked out your AA so you would have to give up your spring for something more powerful like armour lock, jet pack, or camo. MLG Reach however messed with the formula making other AA's pick ups and sprint. The melee system and Halo 2 maps in Reach made sprint worse.

 

Tldr; Just saying sprint doesn't work because of the past two Halos and should  be cut from all future titles with out going more in depth of why they didn't work and in theory why it won't work in Halo 5 is just as silly as grunt with an energy sword. Especially considering how different every Halo has played from one another. Halo CE plays different from Halo 2 and Halo 2 plays way different then Halo 3.

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Unfortunately, they aren't going to take out sprint at this point anyway. Do you really think they would sacrifice not one but TWO new mechanics (slide and charge)? No they wouldn't. The best we can hope for is a competitive playlist with no sprint and modified settings, and we all know how good that kind of thing is population wise.

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