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Cursed Lemon

Halo 1: Final

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Camo and rocks on Priz are a mosh pit of grenades if you're playing guys who know what they're doing. It's still all about creeping your way back up top without necessarily brute forcing it.

Yeah. There is also more than one way up (dere's teleporters, for instance) such as the zyos jumps or the PR nade jump that don't put you in so much risk they're not even worth it like the dere nade jump

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That's an idiotic stance for someone to take because one could say the exact same thing about Prisoner, it's a "bullshit" map but nobody complains about it for some reason. 

 

People don't complain about Prisoner because it flows the same in nearly every skill range. Once players reach a certain level of teamwork and individual ability Derelict becomes almost a completely different map. It's easy to call it a broken, imbalanced map when the team with control is shooting people who aren't even looking at them and running around collecting free powerups.

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Take rocket out and put snipe in tunnel. Also put one in the opposite tunnel, and in both on bottom.

So 4 snipes?

 

 

Yeah. There is also more than one way up (dere's teleporters, for instance) such as the zyos jumps or the PR nade jump that don't put you in so much risk they're not even worth it like the dere nade jump

 
Dere nade jump can be clutch, as long as OS is available/about to spawn, you know the enemy not contending OS is on the other side of top or is dead, your teammate is distracting, and you're really quick at doing it. Lol so basically it's extremely situational, but few things are more satisfying than sneakily grabbing a long-charge OS right in front of someone and then killing them both.
 
It's worth practicing, anyway.
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I don't disagree. In the context of comparing the maps to each other, its not too far fetched to conclude that the version of derelict that Insidious and cT created has more in common with prisoner than any other map has with another. 

 

Keep in mind, my goal with expressing these sorts of ideas is not to discourage people from critiquing the original maps. I have just been in more situations than i would like where players have refused to play derelict or dismissed a loss on it because they view it as an 'illegitimate' map. I feel that the opinions expressed by some of the people on competitive halo boards is at least partially to blame for this idea.

This is why I try to accept all the maps for what they are, despite their flaws. I didn't like Derelict for a long time, but after watching top-level players have good games on it, I'm trying harder to learn it and appreciate it.

 

CE has never been about a perfectly-balanced matrix of map and gametype elements. Just look at the pistol. Look at the player spawning system. Almost every aspect of the game is exploitable to some degree. So why does it bother people that some maps are exploitable too?

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People don't complain about Prisoner because it flows the same in nearly every skill range. Once players reach a certain level of teamwork and individual ability Derelict becomes almost a completely different map. It's easy to call it a broken, imbalanced map when the team with control is shooting people who aren't even looking at them and running around collecting free powerups.

I know we've talked about this before, but I have to ask a few questions. I'll preface this by saying that I'm not one that believes that Derelict is broken, just that it could be better than it currently is. My question to you is: do you think the current state of derelict is the best it could be? From a competitive standpoint, should a map really be considered the best it can possibly be when games with evenly matched teams routinely start off with one team getting 15+ uncontested kills? To me, that sounds like the first few instants of the game are so influential, that they can not possibly be manipulated by even the most talented of players. In this scenario of roughly evenly matched teams, with one team starting out with a 15 kill streak, what else could that be attributed to other than randomness? Randomness of the starting spawn, etc.

 

Keep in mind, I'm just talking about the starting run of the game; obviously over the course of the game, talented players are given plenty of chances to overcome any bad luck they may have encountered in the beginning of the game. The point I'm trying to address is: is this aspect of Derelict really the signature of a highly competitive map? Or as CT said, is Derelict competitive (due to the mechanics of Halo 1) despite its design? Before I posted this, I decided to look up some high level Derelict gameplay just to sort of see if it matched my analysis. This was the first video I found.

 

 

Again, I don't think that the imbalance (as I would call it) is insurmountable: [spoilers] They end up winning the match[/spoilers]. Just questioning whether it's current balance is a good/neutral/bad quality.

 

Another issue I have with Derelict is the bipolar nature of the gameplay. In general (again, in my scrubby experience, and from what I've seen in top level play), I would assert that there aren't many (if any) valid reasons to choose to go to the bottom of the map if you are already on the top of the map. Of course, if you're about to die but can live if you drop down, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm speaking of scenarios where going to the bottom of the map will give you some competitive advantage over the opposing team. Based off of everything I've seen about Derelict gameplay, I would state that going to the bottom is generally only a choice you make when you don't have any other options.

 

In Competitive Theory, there is the concept of a "Dominant Strategy". When given the set of rules of a game, a Dominant Strategy is defined as a set of actions which will always give the most optimal result. Similarly to Chess, Halo 1 tends to not have any Dominant Strategies, unlike later Halo games for instance (See H2 Lockout BR Setup). However, I still believe that the style of play in Derelict is the closest to a Dominant Strategy as possible in Halo 1. A large portion of the skill in Halo 1 is the need to be able to recognize all offensive options, and choose the most optimal one for that specific scenario. Given this, we can conclude that a map with more offensive options is objectively more competitive than one with a more narrow subset of offensive options (all else being equal). Thus, when you give a player incentive to leave the top of Derelict, you objectively make the map more competitive.

 

Overall, I don't think Derelict is broken, just that it could play better than it does now.

 

Edit: Can any H1 people critique this post please? I wrote this based off my current understanding of the H1 meta. If I'm misunderstanding or misrepresenting anything, I'd be interested in learning. @@Cujjer @@ThreeShotPistol @@chaosTheory @@Missingno @@BigShow36

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If there was a way we could force both teams to spawn in opposite bottom tunnels in the beginning of the game, Derelict would be a lot less of a coin flip map.

 

However, the map does play A LOT better once you are comfortable with nading down camo quickly, and knowing how to spawn your partner top from a lot of different places. Grabbing sniper through the floor is also really helpful (one of the spawns is right in front of it).

 

Taking back top control on Derelict is immensely satisfying, and the feeling that your top control might be slipping away is equally gut wrenching, because you know how dire the consequences can be. There's nothing like retaking top control when the enemy has 45+ kills and riding that huge comeback.

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I know we've talked about this before, but I have to ask a few questions. I'll preface this by saying that I'm not one that believes that Derelict is broken, just that it could be better than it currently is. My question to you is: do you think the current state of derelict is the best it could be? From a competitive standpoint, should a map really be considered the best it can possibly be when games with evenly matched teams routinely start off with one team getting 15+ uncontested kills? To me, that sounds like the first few instants of the game are so influential, that they can not possibly be manipulated by even the most talented of players. In this scenario of roughly evenly matched teams, with one team starting out with a 15 kill streak, what else could that be attributed to other than randomness? Randomness of the starting spawn, etc.

 

Keep in mind, I'm just talking about the starting run of the game; obviously over the course of the game, talented players are given plenty of chances to overcome any bad luck they may have encountered in the beginning of the game. The point I'm trying to address is: is this aspect of Derelict really the signature of a highly competitive map? Or as CT said, is Derelict competitive (due to the mechanics of Halo 1) despite its design? Before I posted this, I decided to look up some high level Derelict gameplay just to sort of see if it matched my analysis. This was the first video I found.

 

 

Again, I don't think that the imbalance (as I would call it) is insurmountable: [spoilers] They end up winning the match[/spoilers]. Just questioning whether it's current balance is a good/neutral/bad quality.

 

Another issue I have with Derelict is the bipolar nature of the gameplay. In general (again, in my scrubby experience, and from what I've seen in top level play), I would assert that there aren't many (if any) valid reasons to choose to go to the bottom of the map if you are already on the top of the map. Of course, if you're about to die but can live if you drop down, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm speaking of scenarios where going to the bottom of the map will give you some competitive advantage over the opposing team. Based off of everything I've seen about Derelict gameplay, I would state that going to the bottom is generally only a choice you make when you don't have any other options.

 

In Competitive Theory, there is the concept of a "Dominant Strategy". When given the set of rules of a game, a Dominant Strategy is defined as a set of actions which will always give the most optimal result. Similarly to Chess, Halo 1 tends to not have any Dominant Strategies, unlike later Halo games for instance (See H2 Lockout BR Setup). However, I still believe that the style of play in Derelict is the closest to a Dominant Strategy as possible in Halo 1. A large portion of the skill in Halo 1 is the need to be able to recognize all offensive options, and choose the most optimal one for that specific scenario. Given this, we can conclude that a map with more offensive options is objectively more competitive than one with a more narrow subset of offensive options (all else being equal). Thus, when you give a player incentive to leave the top of Derelict, you objectively make the map more competitive.

 

Overall, I don't think Derelict is broken, just that it could play better than it does now.

 

Edit: Can any H1 people critique this post please? I wrote this based off my current understanding of the H1 meta. If I'm misunderstanding or misrepresenting anything, I'd be interested in learning. @@Cujjer @@ThreeShotPistol @@chaosTheory @@Missingno @@BigShow36

 

I'm not going to get too much into if I think Derelict is better with any changes or not.  The first thing I did when I found out about Arsenic was switch health pack and camo spawn in Derelict, to have 2 versions.  I believe CT's version was something similar, I had it too eventually, but I just can't remember.

 

Point being, in 2016, the people that still LAN this game are generally not open to any change.  I would say I'm in that crowd too.  There is an established meta and as silly as Dere can seem sometimes, generally people don't want any change.  As for people playing PC version, or lanning with their friends I say play whatever you want.  When I lived in TN, I will readily admit I played new maps over Hang 'Em and Derelict.  I love playing Hang 'Em and Derelict, and while they can be frustrating, I thought the idea of new maps was too fun to pass up.  I was lucky - I had a LAN group and I lived in a place where there wasn't much to do.  We had plenty of time to play.  But for guys that may get to LAN 2 - 3 times a year at best, they don't want change.  They want to play H1 as they have always played it.  They don't have the time or desire to mix things up, and I can't say I blame them.  This is one of the reasons I believe more people do not try the new maps, which is a shame because they are great.

 

I have had some H1 players try new maps with me and they IMMEDIATELY have complaints about the maps.  I heard once in Exhibit "there are not enough guaranteed randoms in this map."  There is exactly one more random than Prisoner and as many as Chill Out.  Also about Exhibit, "This map is too big."  After the game we had no problem throwing up a host in the enormous Hang 'Em High.  What I'm trying to say is, if Derelict was released as a "new" map in 2011 with Halo 1.5, it would have been laughed out of a LAN.  "Wait a second rockets spawn every 30 seconds and all the powerups are up top?  I'm not playing this stupid shit."  People have just played the game so long, that any issues with the original maps are just part of the metagame at this point.  For better or worse, Derelict is what it is.  I like the map and look forward to playing.  It feels like anything can happen there. 

 

I do agree that starting spawns can be super rough in Derelict.  Against really good players, starting spawns can be rough in any map - just not to the extent that they are in Derelict.

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I'm not going to get too much into if I think Derelict is better with any changes or not. The first thing I did when I found out about Arsenic was switch health pack and camo spawn in Derelict, to have 2 versions. I believe CT's version was something similar, I had it too eventually, but I just can't remember.

 

Point being, in 2016, the people that still LAN this game are generally not open to any change. I would say I'm in that crowd too. There is an established meta and as silly as Dere can seem sometimes, generally people don't want any change. As for people playing PC version, or lanning with their friends I say play whatever you want. When I lived in TN, I will readily admit I played new maps over Hang 'Em and Derelict. I love playing Hang 'Em and Derelict, and while they can be frustrating, I thought the idea of new maps was too fun to pass up. I was lucky - I had a LAN group and I lived in a place where there wasn't much to do. We had plenty of time to play. But for guys that may get to LAN 2 - 3 times a year at best, they don't want change. They want to play H1 as they have always played it. They don't have the time or desire to mix things up, and I can't say I blame them. This is one of the reasons I believe more people do not try the new maps, which is a shame because they are great.

 

I have had some H1 players try new maps with me and they IMMEDIATELY have complaints about the maps. I heard once in Exhibit "there are not enough guaranteed randoms in this map." There is exactly one more random than Prisoner and as many as Chill Out. Also about Exhibit, "This map is too big." After the game we had no problem throwing up a host in the enormous Hang 'Em High. What I'm trying to say is, if Derelict was released as a "new" map in 2011 with Halo 1.5, it would have been laughed out of a LAN. "Wait a second rockets spawn every 30 seconds and all the powerups are up top? I'm not playing this stupid shit." People have just played the game so long, that any issues with the original maps are just part of the metagame at this point. For better or worse, Derelict is what it is. I like the map and look forward to playing. It feels like anything can happen there.

 

I do agree that starting spawns can be super rough in Derelict. Against really good players, starting spawns can be rough in any map - just not to the extent that they are in Derelict.

I find it really interesting to hear you talk about CE's meta as it developed and how people didn't like change. It makes me wonder just how much you must have hated Halo 2 after it came out.

 

(Not bashing either, its understandable)

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@@Missingno @ @@Hootspa

 

It's an interesting subject, getting people to accept change and new maps. It's a constant challenge for map-makers like myself and many others in the community. The problem is that for a map to truly shine for high-level play, people want to know exploitable aspects. Nade tricks, player spawn points, randoms, weapon spawn times, etc.

 

Otherwise it's exhausting just thinking about how long it will take to learn these things just from experience and trial & error. And what happens if the map doesn't offer much in terms of exploitable aspects? If the player spawns positions don't allow for any interesting scenarios, or if no useful nade tricks are possible? Then players have wasted valuable time looking for something that isn't there. Most maps aren't made with this sort of thing in mind, and it's what separates the okay custom maps from the great ones.

 

It's obviously not going to be possible to release detailed information on the level of halospawns.com, but any maps that I release will come with a sort of starter-guide so people can skim through it and immediately know some randoms and nade tricks and stuff. It's required or people won't even consider the maps.

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@@Missingno @ @@HootspaIt's an interesting subject, getting people to accept change and new maps. It's a constant challenge for map-makers like myself and many others in the community. The problem is that for a map to truly shine for high-level play, people want to know exploitable aspects. Nade tricks, player spawn points, randoms, weapon spawn times, etc.Otherwise it's exhausting just thinking about how long it will take to learn these things just from experience and trial & error. And what happens if the map doesn't offer much in terms of exploitable aspects? If the player spawns positions don't allow for any interesting scenarios, or if no useful nade tricks are possible? Then players have wasted valuable time looking for something that isn't there. Most maps aren't made with this sort of thing in mind, and it's what separates the okay custom maps from the great ones.It's obviously not going to be possible to release detailed information on the level of halospawns.com, but any maps that I release will come with a sort of starter-guide so people can skim through it and immediately know some randoms and nade tricks and stuff. It's required or people won't even consider the maps.

You'd think it'd be the opposite; truth be told I like the H1 maps but too much of the same thing becomes boring personally

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You'd think it'd be the opposite; truth be told I like the H1 maps but too much of the same thing becomes boring personally

Well, no - that's the point I'm trying to make. People are still playing the stock maps after all this time because there's so much more to the maps that's been discovered over all the years. You throw people a new map and they're just like "well it's cool but I don't know any randoms, any nade tricks, nothing" and they drop it because it would take years of playing the map and trial & error to establish a metagame for the map.

 

But if maps were released with that information readily available, I think it would make the maps more accessible to players that seek more depth than just a cool layout or aesthetics.

 

I can especially see newer players adopting custom maps as long as that sort of info is accessible, since they're already hopefully in the habit of using external resources (halospawns.com, youtube videos, etc) to learn map tricks. What's another few maps? Easy

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Well, no - that's the point I'm trying to make. People are still playing the stock maps after all this time because there's so much more to the maps that's been discovered over all the years. You throw people a new map and they're just like "well it's cool but I don't know any randoms, any nade tricks, nothing" and they drop it because it would take years of playing the map and trial & error to establish a metagame for the map.But if maps were released with that information readily available, I think it would make the maps more accessible to players that seek more depth than just a cool layout or aesthetics.I can especially see newer players adopting custom maps as long as that sort of info is accessible, since they're already hopefully in the habit of using external resources (halospawns.com, youtube videos, etc) to learn map tricks. What's another few maps? Easy

Yeah, i see your point. Only issue I have(?) is that the beauty of map design is a meta that reveals overtime; if you give them that info straight up, it somewhat ruins that.

 

On the other hand if you design your map well, i guess that really isnt a factor

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Yeah, i see your point. Only issue I have(?) is that the beauty of map design is a meta that reveals overtime; if you give them that info straight up, it somewhat ruins that.

 

On the other hand if you design your map well, i guess that really isnt a factor

Nah I don't think that's worth considering. You're talking about an immeasurable abstract notion of charm while a map develops its metagame naturally? Sure I guess memories of discovering certain map tricks can hold a certain emotional value, but only for the players that were around at the time of its discovery. No one's got time to wait for that sort of thing to develop naturally.

 

That's like telling new players "no you don't need halospawns.com, you'll discover all the randoms and spawn points through experience instead it'll be much more rewarding."

 

I can't speak for everyone but I'm fairly certain it's more rewarding for a player to be able to immediately start playing at a high level by knowing as many map tricks as possible, rather than learning stuff the hard way in order to appreciate the "beauty of map design."

 

Besides, even the map creator won't be aware of all the possible tricks on his own map. New meta will develop over time regardless. I just think that as long as players are provided with some base knowledge for new maps, those new maps will gain significant, immediate replay value because they can be played on a similar level as the stock maps.

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The meta develops much faster when experienced players play the maps.  When we started playing the new maps in TN, we didn't know a thing, but we knew how to play H1.  It was much easier to think "oh what happens when I stand here" for spawns in new maps.  Or "oh what happens if I bounce a nade here."  But the meta, it was all organic.  We were literally the first people to play some of the maps (Pwnytar's.)  He didn't even get to play the maps until he came to my house.  He didn't know what to expect and had no idea how to play the maps.  

 

@ I didn't have an Xbox when H2 came out, only played at friends.  I also didn't get heavily into H1 until way later...2007, and didn't time until 2008 or 2009.  I was way behind.  I definitely did not like H2 though, at the time.

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The meta develops much faster when experienced players play the maps.  When we started playing the new maps in TN, we didn't know a thing, but we knew how to play H1.  It was much easier to think "oh what happens when I stand here" for spawns in new maps.  Or "oh what happens if I bounce a nade here."  But the meta, it was all organic.  We were literally the first people to play some of the maps (Pwnytar's.)  He didn't even get to play the maps until he came to my house.  He didn't know what to expect and had no idea how to play the maps.

Ok but would you agree that providing information about nade tricks, spawn tricks, etc with the release of the new map isn't detrimental to a map's replay value or the development of its meta? Like I said, it's certain that players will find new tricks as time goes on, for organic development of meta.

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Ok but would you agree that providing information about nade tricks, spawn tricks, etc with the release of the new map isn't detrimental to a map's replay value or the development of its meta? Like I said, it's certain that players will find new tricks as time goes on, for organic development of meta.

I think some people who are really shut out would say "oh, well now I know everything, the map will get stale"

 

New CE maps are always a good thing to me

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Ok but would you agree that providing information about nade tricks, spawn tricks, etc with the release of the new map isn't detrimental to a map's replay value or the development of its meta? Like I said, it's certain that players will find new tricks as time goes on, for organic development of meta.

 I don't think that would be detrimental.  

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I don't think that would be detrimental.

 

So if new maps ever did come to Halo 1 final / to the OG box, would you play them if you had background info on them? Or do you feel that there's no need to add new ones?

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unless a map is absolute perfect I don't see any new maps being added. and there's a long road to get a map to be tried. the map will have to start on pc. 

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unless a map is absolute perfect I don't see any new maps being added. and there's a long road to get a map to be tried. the map will have to start on pc.

 

No map is perfect....thats why people gotta step out of their comfort zones sometimes

 

I'd LOVE to see new CE maps, its just quality is hard to find

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So if new maps ever did come to Halo 1 final / to the OG box, would you play them if you had background info on them? Or do you feel that there's no need to add new ones?

I would play them if I had time and people to play with.  I can't say I would care either way if there was background info or not.  I don't see how it would hurt having something like that though. 

 

There just isn't a big community willing to play new maps.  Like I said earlier, the only reason I was able to play the 1.5 maps as much as I was, was because of the situation at the time.

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I would play them if I had time and people to play with.  I can't say I would care either way if there was background info or not.  I don't see how it would hurt having something like that though.

If you have your box modded, how hard is it to just install a map as long as it's in the correct format?

 

I'd be thrilled if your group would play a map of mine (when it's ready) but I wouldn't want to ask anyone to jump through hoops or anything just to play it

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I would play them if I had time and people to play with. I can't say I would care either way if there was background info or not. I don't see how it would hurt having something like that though.

 

There just isn't a big community willing to play new maps. Like I said earlier, the only reason I was able to play the 1.5 maps as much as I was, was because of the situation at the time.

Understandable, real life needs and shit sucks haha.

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Nah I don't think that's worth considering. You're talking about an immeasurable abstract notion of charm while a map develops its metagame naturally? Sure I guess memories of discovering certain map tricks can hold a certain emotional value, but only for the players that were around at the time of its discovery. No one's got time to wait for that sort of thing to develop naturally.

 

That's like telling new players "no you don't need halospawns.com, you'll discover all the randoms and spawn points through experience instead it'll be much more rewarding."

 

I can't speak for everyone but I'm fairly certain it's more rewarding for a player to be able to immediately start playing at a high level by knowing as many map tricks as possible, rather than learning stuff the hard way in order to appreciate the "beauty of map design."

 

Besides, even the map creator won't be aware of all the possible tricks on his own map. New meta will develop over time regardless. I just think that as long as players are provided with some base knowledge for new maps, those new maps will gain significant, immediate replay value because they can be played on a similar level as the stock maps.

 

I've always been curious to see how the general public would take to a Hang Em High where all the places you could stand to give a random were colored differently.  It'd be fun to watch them figure out what the colored areas mean, and it'd be an intuitive way to teach new players about spawning their teammate.

 

Edit: Also, our LAN group in Ohio is all about playing on some new maps.  We'd be thrilled to give it a shot.

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If you have your box modded, how hard is it to just install a map as long as it's in the correct format?

 

I'd be thrilled if your group would play a map of mine (when it's ready) but I wouldn't want to ask anyone to jump through hoops or anything just to play it

You just drag and drop the file using Filezilla or something like that.  It's not hard.  

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