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ThatTrueLegend

Why do a lot of people hate Halo?

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The longer kill times slow the game down. It diminishes the power of the individual player, forces a reliance on having multiple players target the same individual, and in the absence of a team-shot it affords the shot at player the chance to run. In essence, it lowers the skill gap and makes for a more forgiving game.

 

If one says that the game is too slow I disagree. If one says that it diminishes the power of the individual player, I don't see how, since 1v1 fire fights are equal combat regardless of the kill times. If one argues that it affords a player the chance to escape, then the only way to avoid that is approaching SWAT/CoD/ShotOnDrop, which as you all know I just don't have any interest in.

 

If one says that [reducing time to kill] lowers the skill gap, then that would be true only if you decreased the number of shots to kill, simply because you need to hold aim on the moving opponent for less shots. It simply takes less skill to achieve a kill.

 

If one advocates faster rate of fire, then you decrease the time to kill while increasing the skill gap, because not only must you maintain aim for the total number of shots, but you must do so "faster".

 

But in the end I find Halo 4 engagements fun as they are. I don't want to see them get any faster, because I prefer the ability to move about during the engagement, and I prefer to move back and around corners to draw my opponent into the open as he chases after me. I enjoy having team engagement so I want the fire fights to last longer so that my team can help each other. I am more of a team guy than an individualist. I guess that is why I love Invasion and CTF.

 

You can argue that this contradicts the argument I made in the first paragraph of 1v1, but remember that each player is afforded the same team support.

 

If one argues that longer kill times slow the game down, I would have to disagree. The game for me is not the kill, but the engagement itself. Running or escaping is engagement without firing a shot. For me the pace of the game is the amount of engagement versus the amount of time between engagements. I don't care how long it takes to win a fire fight, I only care that the engagements are not too much that there is no breather to recharge shields, or that there are too few engagements making the game feel slow.

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If one says that the game is too slow I disagree. If one says that it diminishes the power of the individual player, I don't see how, since 1v1 fire fights are equal combat regardless of the kill times. If one argues that it affords a player the chance to escape, then the only way to avoid that is approaching SWAT/CoD/ShotOnDrop, which as you all know I just don't have any interest in.

 

If one says that it lowers the skill gap, then that would be true only if you decreased the number of shots to kill, simply because you need to hold aim on the moving opponent for less shots. It simply takes less skill to achieve a kill.

 

If one advocates faster rate of fire, then you decrease the time to kill while increasing the skill gap, because not only must you maintain aim for the total number of shots, but you must do so "faster".

 

But in the end I find Halo 4 engagements fun as they are. I don't want to see them get any faster, because I prefer the ability to move about during the engagement, and I prefer to move back and around corners to draw my opponent into the open as he chases after me. I enjoy having team engagement so I want the fire fights to last longer so that my team can help each other. I am more of a team guy than an individualist. I guess that is why I love Invasion and CTF.

 

You can argue that this contradicts the argument I made in the first paragraph of 1v1, but remember that each player is afforded the same team support.

 

If one argues that longer kill times slow the game down, I would have to disagree. The game for me is not the kill, but the engagement itself. Running or escaping is engagement without firing a shot. For me the pace of the game is the amount of engagement versus the amount of time between engagements. I don't care how long it takes to win a fire fight, I only care that the engagements are not too much that there is no breather to recharge shields, or that there are too few engagements making the game feel slow.

 

Fair enough, to each their own. I respect that. All the same, it's my personal opinion that longer kill times slows down the game as the duration of engagements are extended, and barring the assistance of a team mate, the likelyhood of a player escaping death also is increased; thus creating a heavier reliance on team-shotting, which in essence diminishes the individual players power. Of course that latter most of that bit also ties in to aim assist and bullet magnetism mechanics...

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Most of you have interesting view points, and I am aware that YouTube comments for the most part are almost always negative, but it still blows my mind how many people actually hate this game and etc.

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I've heard "It's unrealistic", "I can't spawn with a Sniper Rifle if I want", "I want to put attachments on my guns", "it takes too long to kill people" (which is okay to say but they want an AR to kill someone as if it were CoD), "you jump too high" (about Reach), "no killstreaks", "having a shield makes it too easy", and a few other things. I heard most of these while Halo 3 was still big.

 

Most people I know now IRL don't hate Halo, but they're disinterested because of Reach and/or Halo 4.

What. Reach has the lowest jump height in the Halo series, lol.

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Oh, you didn't hear? Halo doesn't have ADS and you don't kill Russians, so it's shit.


Whenever I hear someone say "ugh I hate Halo", it's almost always a youngster who doesn't know anything other than Call of Duty, and therefore doesn't like anything that doesn't resemble that type of game. I wish I had a more interesting answer than that, but that's honestly what I've observed.

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1. Takes at least 2 weeks for a new player to get acclimated to Halo's unique aiming, maps, and movement. 

  • Players have to suck in order to get good. 

Also, I firmly believe TVs are a huge reason why people can not acclimate to the game.

  • Many people play video games on TVs with 5ms response time. You can get away playing games like COD, however it is impossible to play precision shooters on a 5ms, Most casual/new gamers are unaware of this and is the reason why "it takes to long to kill someone" or "It is too hard!"

 

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... "you jump too high" (about Reach)....

I agree with this across every title I have played. I have heard the ridiculous excuse that the jump was made possible by the armor. But the question remains is it a necessary element? For dodging shots in the vertical axis it is but it looks silly. Not unrealistic but silly.

 

And now CoD has a long jump mechanism for present day fire fights. It doesn't seem out of place due to the "technology ", but it does look silly.

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H1 kids hate H2.

H2 kids hate H3.

H3 kids hate Reach.

Reach kids hate H4.

 

What chance does Halo have of being seen in a favourable light, when even the players within the series hate the majority of the tiles within the franchise?

 

 

That's because every game is different. Everyone has their own opinion. It's not our community hurting Halo, it's the identity crisis. 

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Because halo is no longer the game for the current generation. Halo use to be the game that everyone who purchased an xbox brought, that game is now COD. When halo was > COD most halo players dumped on cod players so it's only expected that COD players dump on halo. Also sad to say, but halo has turned from a fun community to a toxic community. If you go into Mlg players tend to try and tear other players down.

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"it takes too long to kill people" is a perfectly valid complaint.

 

They just take it too far with CoD SWAT-esque kill times. The sad part is that CoD fanboys and dedicated h1 nerds like myself have been asking for faster kill times for years and it still isnt happening.

This is the next big thing we need to push for. I truly believe a lot of more casual players have realized sprint and AAs are bad as a result of our efforts. Now they need to learn about the importance of a faster kill time.

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Because halo is no longer the game for the current generation. Halo use to be the game that everyone who purchased an xbox brought, that game is now COD. When halo was > COD most halo players dumped on cod players so it's only expected that COD players dump on halo. Also sad to say, but halo has turned from a fun community to a toxic community. If you go into Mlg players tend to try and tear other players down.

 

Do we really need to bring up the old threads from the MLG forums again? 

 

But I will say, people didn't take shit as seriously back then. If you got trash talked on XBL, you didn't write a novella about it on the forums or hide in party chat for the rest of your days, that was just part of the game. If you got shit on 50-10  you're first time playing ranked TS, you didn't quit you found other people to play with and got better. If someone was super-bouncing in MM or if you got BxR'd most kids just accepted that as part of MM. Most people were oblivious to the issues of the game they just knew they loved it. Even Bungie didn't take themselves too seriously and have the huge ego's they have now from everyone telling them for years now their shit dont stink. As the general age group of Halo players has matured, so has their taste in games and standards I would say quite honestly. 

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If one says that the game is too slow I disagree. If one says that it diminishes the power of the individual player, I don't see how, since 1v1 fire fights are equal combat regardless of the kill times. If one argues that it affords a player the chance to escape, then the only way to avoid that is approaching SWAT/CoD/ShotOnDrop, which as you all know I just don't have any interest in.

 

If one says that it lowers the skill gap, then that would be true only if you decreased the number of shots to kill, simply because you need to hold aim on the moving opponent for less shots. It simply takes less skill to achieve a kill.

 

If one advocates faster rate of fire, then you decrease the time to kill while increasing the skill gap, because not only must you maintain aim for the total number of shots, but you must do so "faster".

 

But in the end I find Halo 4 engagements fun as they are. I don't want to see them get any faster, because I prefer the ability to move about during the engagement, and I prefer to move back and around corners to draw my opponent into the open as he chases after me. I enjoy having team engagement so I want the fire fights to last longer so that my team can help each other. I am more of a team guy than an individualist. I guess that is why I love Invasion and CTF.

 

You can argue that this contradicts the argument I made in the first paragraph of 1v1, but remember that each player is afforded the same team support.

 

If one argues that longer kill times slow the game down, I would have to disagree. The game for me is not the kill, but the engagement itself. Running or escaping is engagement without firing a shot. For me the pace of the game is the amount of engagement versus the amount of time between engagements. I don't care how long it takes to win a fire fight, I only care that the engagements are not too much that there is no breather to recharge shields, or that there are too few engagements making the game feel slow.

This is where the "Halo 1 versus everything else" argument really takes off.  What I'm going to present is the idea that faster kill times can increase the potential for teamwork.

 

"If one argues that it [longer kill times afford] a player the chance to escape, then the only way to avoid that is approaching SWAT/CoD/ShotOnDrop..."

The only way is to make kill times faster to the point where reaction time or first shot can be a decisive determinant of an individual battle.  But do not mistake this for "first shot wins"--the whole idea is to balance power with difficulty so that these things can happen sometimes, but do not happen all the time.  Most battles in CoD will grant first shooter the kill; it's not bad that this can happen, just that it happens a lot.  First shot should be an advantage, but it should also be surmountable.  Another saying of mine: do not limit the player without good reason.  Allow the player with first shot to get that decisive, clean victory so they can move on at full health if they earn it.  Halo is all about choice and execution.  Do not limit the choice; do not limit the number of ways you can screw up or be legendary.

 

"If one says that [a slow kill time] lowers the skill gap, then that would be true only if you decreased the number of shots to kill, simply because you need to hold aim on the moving opponent for less shots. It simply takes less skill to achieve a kill."

Time on target and number small factors in determining the skill of killing in minimum kill time, in the grand scheme of things.  Lowering the number of shots to kill (and the kill time as well) actually allows each shot to take more skill.  Halo is a console shooter, so aim assist is a given if the game is to move faster than a crawl.  If a 3SK gun takes x skill per shot and a 6SK gun takes x/2 skill per shot, then the 3SK gun still requires more skill.  As most of us know, the final headshot alone is the largest determinant of difficulty.  This is why single shot weapons are more skillful than those with burst fire; the killing shot is what matters, which leads into the next point.

 

"If one argues that longer kill times slow the game down, I would have to disagree. The game for me is not the kill, but the engagement itself. Running or escaping is engagement without firing a shot."

This a massive difference between Halo 1 and its successors.  Halo 1 really emphasized the importance of progressing the game through kills.  In the later games, getting Sniper or Rockets or a power up almost guaranteed control of the game for as long as they lasted.  In Halo 1, every kill needed to be earned, and the incentive items could conceivably be countered by a single individual.  In the later games, the presence of two enemy players will usually force retreat because of the inevitable kill times, which also emigrate retreat because of their non-lethality.  Faster and more skillful kill times prevent this issue, to a certain degree. (Obviously two with have an advantage over one, but in Halo 1 it is less).

 

Let me give you this idea.  If an individual player in one game can deal the same damage as two in another game in the same time frame, then the individual can effectively perform the tasks of two players in that other game.  That's twice the possible teamwork, multiplied by the number of players in the game.  Do not think that teamwork is limited to teamshot.. I mean, it sort of is right now, but it doesn't have to be.  Increasing the damage of each player increases the demand for teamwork input of each player, increasing the individual skill gap.  I agree that every action of the player influences the subjective speed of the game, but it's so much more when those actions actually mean something, when they can result in kills more often.

 

Just remember: balance power with skillfulness, or else Halo's meaning is lost.

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To a certain extent, I'm with Mr. Green on the killtimes.  I love CE most, but I also love every Halo MP for their own reasons.  I thought Halo 4 had a pretty good killtime after the weapon patch, but sprint ruined that.  You can have a TU Reach, v7 Reach, or H4 kill time and the game will still be very good.  You just CAN NOT add sprint to that, or you get people erasing bad plays with sprint, and you get the kids that sprint up and melee because they're not confident in their shot.  I feel like v7 Reach proves that modern Halo killtimes can still produce excellent gameplay, just so long as there are no gimmicks like sprint or AA's off spawn.

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To a certain extent, I'm with Mr. Green on the killtimes.  I love CE most, but I also love every Halo MP for their own reasons.  I thought Halo 4 had a pretty good killtime after the weapon patch, but sprint ruined that.  You can have a TU Reach, v7 Reach, or H4 kill time and the game will still be very good.  You just CAN NOT add sprint to that, or you get people erasing bad plays with sprint, and you get the kids that sprint up and melee because they're not confident in their shot.  I feel like v7 Reach proves that modern Halo killtimes can still produce excellent gameplay, just so long as there are no gimmicks like sprint or AA's off spawn.

I agree that something like v7 is still very good, but I think in order for Halo to move forward (improve), we need to have the perfect balance between skill to use and time to kill, all based on reaction time and static mechanics.  v7 is still in that easier, less powerful category for me.  If you increase damage by a certain amount in conjunction with difficulty, that's just a beautiful thing.

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I agree that something like v7 is still very good, but I think in order for Halo to move forward (improve), we need to have the perfect balance between skill to use and time to kill, all based on reaction time and static mechanics.  v7 is still in that easier, less powerful category for me.  If you increase damage by a certain amount in conjunction with difficulty, that's just a beautiful thing.

Maybe I'm just bad at v7, but I found that ZB DMR to be pretty difficult to use against that increased movement speed.  I've blown plenty of fights by someone turning on me, throwing out a ridiculous strafe, and 5'ing the shit out of me.  Then factor in the descope, and it was frequent to come back in long range fights by knocking the guy out of scope.  But if you could land perfect shots, that ZB DMR could really punish people quickly imo.

 

Ideally, I'd take a 4sk projectile DMR with no bloom.  But if it absolutely must be hitscan, I like the 5sk DMR in v7 quite a bit.

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I could never wrap my head around the people who said they disliked Halo and liked Call of Duty more because Call of Duty is a "realistic" game. Call of Duty is just about as far away from realistic as you can get. Sure it's modern warfare and it's human weapons, characters, etc but to say the gameplay is realistic...just no.

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H1 kids hate H2.

H2 kids hate H3.

H3 kids hate Reach.

Reach kids hate H4.

 

What chance does Halo have of being seen in a favourable light, when even the players within the series hate the majority of the tiles within the franchise?

Idk... I think H1, H2, H3 kids all agree.... Reach is fucking trash

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Maybe I'm just bad at v7, but I found that ZB DMR to be pretty difficult to use against that increased movement speed.  I've blown plenty of fights by someone turning on me, throwing out a ridiculous strafe, and 5'ing the shit out of me.  Then factor in the descope, and it was frequent to come back in long range fights by knocking the guy out of scope.  But if you could land perfect shots, that ZB DMR could really punish people quickly imo.

 

Ideally, I'd take a 4sk projectile DMR with no bloom.  But if it absolutely must be hitscan, I like the 5sk DMR in v7 quite a bit.

I myself find the aiming to be very straightforward, as hitscan usually is, but I will concede that people challenge and actually fight to win so much more than in BR Halo games.  Single shot for the win.  But ask yourself, if the kill time were to be at around 1 second, would the current difficulty work with it?  Obviously Reach doesn't have the type of strafe to support that short of a kill times, but even if it did, I think it could be more difficult.  And yeah, I would like projectile too, if possible.

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This is where the "Halo 1 versus everything else" argument really takes off.  What I'm going to present is the idea that faster kill times can increase the potential for teamwork.

 

"If one argues that it [longer kill times afford] a player the chance to escape, then the only way to avoid that is approaching SWAT/CoD/ShotOnDrop..."

The only way is to make kill times faster to the point where reaction time or first shot can be a decisive determinant of an individual battle.  But do not mistake this for "first shot wins"--the whole idea is to balance power with difficulty so that these things can happen sometimes, but do not happen all the time.  Most battles in CoD will grant first shooter the kill; it's not bad that this can happen, just that it happens a lot.  First shot should be an advantage, but it should also be surmountable.  Another saying of mine: do not limit the player without good reason.  Allow the player with first shot to get that decisive, clean victory so they can move on at full health if they earn it.  Halo is all about choice and execution.  Do not limit the choice; do not limit the number of ways you can screw up or be legendary.

 

I realized when reading this I made a mistake in using theword "it". You properly interpreted it to mean longer kill times but I actually meant shorter kill times. It was sort of late at night when I posted all that, because I thought it was a good opportunity to think this through a bit.

 

In general I tend to agree with you, but the word determinant bothers me. I don't want too much of it, really not a lot of it at all.

 

 

 

 

 

"If one argues that longer kill times slow the game down, I would have to disagree. The game for me is not the kill, but the engagement itself. Running or escaping is engagement without firing a shot."

This a massive difference between Halo 1 and its successors.  Halo 1 really emphasized the importance of progressing the game through kills.  In the later games, getting Sniper or Rockets or a power up almost guaranteed control of the game for as long as they lasted.  In Halo 1, every kill needed to be earned, and the incentive items could conceivably be countered by a single individual.  In the later games, the presence of two enemy players will usually force retreat because of the inevitable kill times, which also emigrate retreat because of their non-lethality.  Faster and more skillful kill times prevent this issue, to a certain degree. (Obviously two with have an advantage over one, but in Halo 1 it is less).

 

This is interesting. I will look for this distinction when I play MCC/H1.

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I realized when reading this I made a mistake in using theword "it". You properly interpreted it to mean longer kill times but I actually meant shorter kill times. It was sort of late at night when I posted all that, because I thought it was a good opportunity to think this through a bit.

 

In general I tend to agree with you, but the word determinant bothers me. I don't want too much of it, really not a lot of it at all.

 

 

 

This is interesting. I will look for this distinction when I play MCC/H1.

I see your problem with "determinant."  Keep in mind that perfect decisiveness only comes with perfect execution, which should be rare but still possible.

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Because halo is no longer the game for the current generation. Halo use to be the game that everyone who purchased an xbox brought, that game is now COD. When halo was > COD most halo players dumped on cod players so it's only expected that COD players dump on halo. Also sad to say, but halo has turned from a fun community to a toxic community. If you go into Mlg players tend to try and tear other players down.

Tbh every gaming community is toxic.

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I myself find the aiming to be very straightforward, as hitscan usually is, but I will concede that people challenge and actually fight to win so much more than in BR Halo games.  Single shot for the win.  But ask yourself, if the kill time were to be at around 1 second, would the current difficulty work with it?  Obviously Reach doesn't have the type of strafe to support that short of a kill times, but even if it did, I think it could be more difficult.  And yeah, I would like projectile too, if possible.

 

The way it is now?  No, you're right.  It would be too easy if the TTK was 1 second.  But if you made it projectile, with shorter time to kill but a longer rate of fire (meaning fewer shots to kill, but each shot does more damage, and misses mean more), then I think you'd have a perfect starting weapon.  

 

I'm starting to feel like v7 is perfect for 4v4, but something stronger would be better in 2v2's.

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I highly respect your opinion perhaps more than anyone else's here. When you explained to me why you hated h3 it opened my eyes to see an aspect of FPS I had not given much thought to.

 

But again I am confused. The kill times now for h4 or reach are fine. I couldn't imagine cutting them in half and have anything close to the entertaining engagement we have today.

 

If again you would be so kind as to enlighten me I would be most appreciative.

 

I haven't forgotten about this but I'm hiring a new guy and I've been stuck in a dozen meetings this week and haven't really had time to respond properly.

 

Then I remembered that I write about this every once in a while. This is a very small section of what I've been working on, talking about speed. It's not a direct answer to your question, but it will give you an idea of why I think the way I do. I can respond further to any other specific questions you may have, just let me know.

 

Speed

 

Giving the primary rifle sufficient range is an absolutely vital factor in maintaining the fairness that I spoke about earlier in this document. An equally important factor is how fast you are able to kill an opponent at any range. My opening paragraph in this section mentioned it might be contentious. Kill times are one of the most argued and disagreed upon topics in the ever-so fractured and divided Halo community. This again stems from the hugely different entry points to the Halo franchise, discussed in detail in the preface of this section.

 

Speed of a perfect kill is one of the most important things about a Halo game. It completely dictates the pace of the entire game. Equally important is the average kill time, which is influenced primarily by difficulty. Understanding how these two work together is vital. Average kill time will be expanded on in the Rifles section, where we can examine difficulty of shooting in more detail. A summary of it is that you want your average kill time to be significantly higher than the perfect times. The larger the disparity between the two, the more opportunities a player has to separate himself from his opponents. Let’s begin to by talking about perfect kill times, and what modifying them does to players who shoot very accurately.

 

Lowering the perfect kill times creates a dynamic that is more about shooting and less about mitigating and minimizing damage taken. This is intrinsically correlated to a person’s ability to react. The average human reaction time is about a quarter of a second. By my estimate they’d need about another half second to turn the thumbstick, aim, and start shooting back, which makes the average FPS counteraction is about 0.75 seconds.

 

In a game with a perfect kill time of roughly 1.4-1.7 seconds, a person cannot be killed with a primary rifle without time to think and react. The brain works very well at processing information for a fight or flight response and they can make this choice near-instantly.

 

If they choose to engage, they can hurt the aggressor to the point he will have to retreat to recharge shields or he will most certainly lose his next encounter. If they choose to evade, the aggressor may have to chase the kill and he will always lose the element of surprise no matter what happens. Most times they will choose to evade, especially if they have an effective method of doing so, such as sprint. Slow kill times coupled with viable and effective defensive measures utterly devalues intelligent movement and the ability to get the first shot. This makes the game focused entirely on teamshooting. When you halve the kill time via two people shooting at once, you can put someone down before they have a chance to react and evade or react and put shots on the aggressor. That is one of the reasons that teamshooting is so key in pretty much all of the Halo sequels. If you can bring back a time where a perfect kill is faster than an average person can react, you begin to reward smart play and not penalize the aggressor with being forced to chase or going into his next battle with half shields.

 

In a game with a perfect kill time below 1 second, you do not give a person adequate time to react. If the aggressor’s shots are perfect and unaware person doesn’t have time to react, they simply die. They are never presented with the option to engage or evade. They have no chance to run and no chance to weaken the aggressor. This creates the opposite situation. Awareness, accuracy and intelligent movement are consistently rewarded because perfect shots yield a kill without taking any damage and sometimes without even giving away the aggressor’s position. Again though, the formula only really works when the average kill time is much higher and the gun is difficult to use.

 

When perfects shots are something special, separation occurs more naturally. When perfect shots are commonplace, the game becomes much less interesting. You see many more of the rock, paper, scissors and checkmate scenarios that were discussed at length in Section One. Speed without difficulty does not a good Halo game make. Halo 4 has thirteen instant kill weapons (rocket, incineration cannon, fuel rod gun, sticky detonator, railgun, sniper, beam rifle, binary rifle, boltshot, shotgun, scattershot, sword and hammer). That isn’t even counting the SAW, which is the third most powerfully versatile weapon in the Halo franchise behind the Halo 4 beam rifle and the Halo 1 Pistol. It can be a very fast game, but unless you bring the primary rifles’ perfect kill times down and average kill times up, people still feel powerless.

 

I don’t understand how developers can look at the Call of Duty franchise, with incredibly quick kill times, destroy Halo in terms of sales and active players and just keep making the game slower and nerfing the rifles more and more. By doing this, they are alienating the Halo crowd and definitely not attracting the Call of Duty players. In my experience, a common complaint that CoD players have about Halo is that “It's not realistic” and "I shoot people and they don't die." Halo may never be realistic, but they could do a bit more to make enemies die more quickly.

 

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In a game with a perfect kill time below 1 second, you do not give a person adequate time to react. If the aggressor’s shots are perfect and unaware person doesn’t have time to react, they simply die. They are never presented with the option to engage or evade. They have no chance to run and no chance to weaken the aggressor. This creates the opposite situation. Awareness, accuracy and intelligent movement are consistently rewarded because perfect shots yield a kill without taking any damage and sometimes without even giving away the aggressor’s position. Again though, the formula only really works when the average kill time is much higher and the gun is difficult to use.

 

This is why every Halo game since H:CE has been a letdown in my eyes.  After playing H:CE, it frustrates me to no end as I watch weakened players escape what should be certain death, because one of my teammates wasn't in position to help finish the kill. 

 

Thank you for posting that CT, it was an enjoyable read.  You need to hurry up and release your Halo novel, because that would be :goat: . 

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