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TTUVAPOR

The ignorant logic of a casual Halo player

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I'm having interesting discussions on the NeoGAF MCC thread and it's been a while (a few weeks) since I was debating with people over the design choices of what starting weapons should be for Halo in a general scope of things, whether it be pistol start in HCE, BR start in H2, etc.

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=120205405&highlight=#post120205405

 

 

The aged old issue that's been tossed around so many times is that the HCE pistol was OP and a mistake by design...when facts have presented themselves that it was a clear and definitive design decision by the Halo CE mutliplayer designer.

 

Furthermore, in Halo 2, we get a different design team who decides to go the route of starting players with SMGs and in turn this gives a crutch to those who hold power weapons and punishes players simply for dying by continuing to die till they get a lucky respawn near a BR or some other power weapon.

 

Today on the NeoGAF thread, I finally get to see someone admit flat out what they truly think of SMG starts in H2 and it's the best example to show as proof that there are ignorant Halo players out there. I'm not sure if they're to be blamed for this ignorance because Bungie in my opinion are at fault originally. Players typically play out of the box settings and rarely question the why, they just play. Once that takes off, it psychologically becomes the norm and it's often difficult to change perception after the fact.

 

Here's the juice:

 

Originally Posted by
TTUVAPOR

Think we will get BR starts across the board on Halo 2 playlists? I cringe at the sight of SMG starts....
:(

 

I'd rather have SMG starts honestly, it's not like BRs are that hard to find on most maps. I love the Halo 2 BR, but when they went to BR starts it felt like Bungie was caving to the people who were too dependent on pistol starts in Halo 1, if that makes sense to anyone else.

 

 

Originally Posted by
Sephzilla

I'd rather have SMG starts honestly, it's not like BRs are that hard to find on most maps. I love the Halo 2 BR, but when they went to BR starts it felt like Bungie was caving to the people who were too dependent on pistol starts in Halo 1, if that makes sense to anyone else.

Originally Posted by TTUVAPOR

 

I won't get into many details, because if I do, it'll just start a huge debate, but I'll say this, I don't like SMG starts for the reason that when you spawn, you immediately are being punished simply for spawning because anyone with a rifle whether it be a BR, Carbine, or Sniper, immediately can kill you with little to no effort because you only have and SMG and some grenades.

 

 

Originally Posted by
TTUVAPOR

I won't get into many details, because if I do, it'll just start a huge debate, but I'll say this, I don't like SMG starts for the reason that when you spawn, you immediately are being punished simply for spawning because anyone with a rifle whether it be a BR, Carbine, or Sniper, immediately can kill you with little to no effort because you only have and SMG and some grenades.

See, I think that should be part of a perk for map control. The people who got the BR/Carbine/Sniper should dominate because they managed to get said weapon. I totally understand that it's very hard to fight back against that on some maps with an SMG, but I think too many people were spoiled in Halo 1 by spawning with the best weapon in the game and didn't know how to adapt in Halo 2.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by
Sephzilla

See, I think that should be part of a perk for map control. The people who got the BR/Carbine/Sniper should dominate because they managed to get said weapon. I totally understand that it's very hard to fight back against that on some maps with an SMG, but I think too many people were spoiled in Halo 1 by spawning with the best weapon in the game and didn't know how to adapt in Halo 2.

Ahhh....I can't help but disagree.

Here's why. You just said "part of a perk for map control"...why should that even be an element of the game in the first place?

That's the diff between Halo CE and H2 default, HCE was balanced because the power weapon holders were not guaranteed "freebie" kills. Saying CE players couldn't adapt to H2's SMG start is a cop-out excuse.

The SMG start is a poor design choice by the original developers. The game needs spawn players with a fair and accurate weapon that can defend themselves from all ranges off respawn.

The perk thing you mentioned, that's exactly what Bungie had in mind when they designed the game. I've heard that same logic so many times since 2004...it's bad, bad logic. Do you really feel that you should be continuously punished with a crappy starting weapon and continue to die till you happen to get a lucky respawn? That's what SMG starts in H2 are. Why should a power weapon holder get more power other than simply having the weapon they have?

======

 

 

I bold the part that's the core statement.

 

How can this be changed? What's the best way to change this perception? Can it ever be changed?

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I've tried to convince people that things are bad, but they are set in their ways. They have their perception or opinion. The best thing I feel is to just let them think what they want and tell them that you respectfully disagree. Or if you don't feel like being nice, call them a fucktard. Either way the result is going to be the same. It's the same people who think Halo Reach and H4 were the better Halos. They feel that AAs were a godsend because it made things easier for them and they had more fun playing it because they could play better since the game was made easier.

 

This person you are talking to is probably someone who would get a BR relatively quickly in H2 and loved the fact that he was able to dominate, not that the game was unfair because no one could effectively fight back. It was easy for him since no one could fight back, which made it fun for him. Competitive isn't what he wants because he doesn't get the thrill from a good 50-49 win, he just likes winning because he's a casual and doesn't want to work for it.

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Didn't look like a casual to me, he had some knowledge of map control, which is a lot more than most players can say to have.

 

Anyway, it looks just a matter of opinions to me. I agree with you that spawn control and Power Weapons are enough of an advantage, he just thinks that's not enough.
The whole "you will keep dying 'till you get a lucky respawn near a BR" is flawed just because spawns aren't random and BR's placement on map should be optimal for that reason. Spawns can (and should) be controlled by who has map control, and if you happen to spawn without a BR nearby, that just means your opponent did a good job.

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Some people just like power weapons to be game breaking I guess. Each to there own.

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I think the only way such attitudes will change is if 343 implements precision weapon starts across the board in the MCC or in Halo 5. For so many years Bungie pushed the idea of spawning with niche weapons that a great deal of players see that simple as the way the game is played - they don't know an better because they've never had to understand the game at a higher level than they currently do in order to keep enjoying it.

 

If 343 comes out and makes it clear that "Halo plays optimally this way" (realistically spawning with both a precision rifle and an automatic weapon will probably find the happiest medium) instead then attitudes will shift as people get used to it.

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>Disagrees with OP

 

>Must be casual

 

>Forumer logic

 

Automatic disagreement with me doesn't make me label someone a casual. His reasoning is flat out casual rhetoric. Perhaps the guy isn't a "casual" so to speak, but he's drinking the Kool-Aid that Bungie mixed up when they launched Halo 2.

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Options are bad for video games. 

 

343 needs to say as @@MATCLAN said "Halo plays optimally this way" and make that the ONLY way to play matchmaking(not including Snipers, Action Sack, etc...) 

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I've tried to convince people that things are bad, but they are set in their ways. They have their perception or opinion. The best thing I feel is to just let them think what they want and tell them that you respectfully disagree. Or if you don't feel like being nice, call them a fucktard. Either way the result is going to be the same. It's the same people who think Halo Reach and H4 were the better Halos. They feel that AAs were a godsend because it made things easier for them and they had more fun playing it because they could play better since the game was made easier.

 

This person you are talking to is probably someone who would get a BR relatively quickly in H2 and loved the fact that he was able to dominate, not that the game was unfair because no one could effectively fight back. It was easy for him since no one could fight back, which made it fun for him. Competitive isn't what he wants because he doesn't get the thrill from a good 50-49 win, he just likes winning because he's a casual and doesn't want to work for it.

Its this logic and attitude that divides the Halo community. If someone disagrees with you don't demonize them as a stupid casual who doesn't know what they are talking about, it's childish way to think at best. And don't put all casuals in the same boat, I know plenty who know plenty about halo and love older Halos the most. What you're doing by spreading this attitude is alienating the competitive community from the rest of the Halo community. Halo has always had a large portion of casuals, one reason why H3 was so popular was because it had ranked AND social playlists. If someone disagrees on something to each their own.

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Its this logic and attitude that divides the Halo community. If someone disagrees with you don't demonize them as a stupid casual who doesn't know what they are talking about, it's childish way to think at best. And don't put all casuals in the same boat, I know plenty who know plenty about halo and love older Halos the most. What you're doing by spreading this attitude is alienating the competitive community from the rest of the Halo community. Halo has always had a large portion of casuals, one reason why H3 was so popular was because it had ranked AND social playlists. If someone disagrees on something to each their own.

 

So by me saying, (paraphrasing) "That person has their own idea and that's probably how it's going to stay." and then following up with, "from what you posted and I read, it could be that the person finds the less challenging games just as fun if not more fun than the close games because they just like to win" is alienating? I didn't have enough info or even talk to the other party so I didn't give a definitive answer to go off of. I was just stating my opinion on what it could be. Sure I said he could be mean and call the other party a fucktard, but if that's what he wants to do, go for it. He could even use a different word. I don't really care. I'm not in his debate. I'm not even on NeoGAF.

 

I also didn't put all the "casuals" into one boat either, I explicitly stated, "This person you are talking to is probably someone who ..." which implies that I'm talking about the one other person in the conversation. 

 

I'm also aware of H3's casuals. I have friends who are casuals and love some of the stupid playlists. I even enjoy some of the stupid playlists. So by me saying in the third sentence of my original post, "The best thing I feel is to just let them think what they want and tell them that you respectfully disagree." is pretty much what you were saying, so I don't know why you were thinking my attitude is dividing the Halo community. 

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I stay away from other halo forums just so I don't have to read idiotic mental-gymnastics logic like Sephzilla's. No one seems to get that for all the complaining about the pistol that goes on, EVERYONE has one. I can't even finish typing this it's too blatantly obvious for me to spend a lot of time on.

 

Since GAF is full of nut-swinging developer apologists, they should at least be made aware of the fact that the Halo 3 "Tips" that showed while matchmaking was searching had a joke about how SMGs on Coagulation might not have been a good idea. They openly admitted it didn't work well and decided to laugh about it rather than realize that maybe they don't always have the best ideas for how to make competitively balanced gametypes. Hubris.

 

Not to mention all of the h2 matchmaking leaderboards were full of nothing but MLG players for the entirety of the time they existed.

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I stay away from other halo forums just so I don't have to read idiotic mental-gymnastics logic like Sephzilla's. No one seems to get that for all the complaining about the pistol that goes on, EVERYONE has one. I can't even finish typing this it's too blatantly obvious for me to spend a lot of time on.

 

Since GAF is full of nut-swinging developer apologists, they should at least be made aware of the fact that the Halo 3 "Tips" that showed while matchmaking was searching had a joke about how SMGs on Coagulation might not have been a good idea. They openly admitted it didn't work well and decided to laugh about it rather than realize that maybe they don't always have the best ideas for how to make competitively balanced gametypes. Hubris.

 

Not to mention all of the h2 matchmaking leaderboards were full of nothing but MLG players for the entirety of the time they existed.

bungie03.jpg

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it kinda sounds like you're projecting this guys opinions onto all casual players, which isn't really fair.

 

Also you didn't quote the part where he agreed with this post that I think kinda makes a lot of sense: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120219727&postcount=4553

 

Or this part where he clarifies what he's trying to say: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120225400&postcount=4558

 

He doesn't think there HAS to be SMG starts, he just doesn't want there to be no motivation to ever pick up anything but the BR.

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So by me saying, (paraphrasing) "That person has their own idea and that's probably how it's going to stay." and then following up with, "from what you posted and I read, it could be that the person finds the less challenging games just as fun if not more fun than the close games because they just like to win" is alienating? I didn't have enough info or even talk to the other party so I didn't give a definitive answer to go off of. I was just stating my opinion on what it could be. Sure I said he could be mean and call the other party a fucktard, but if that's what he wants to do, go for it. He could even use a different word. I don't really care. I'm not in his debate. I'm not even on NeoGAF.

 

I also didn't put all the "casuals" into one boat either, I explicitly stated, "This person you are talking to is probably someone who ..." which implies that I'm talking about the one other person in the conversation. 

 

I'm also aware of H3's casuals. I have friends who are casuals and love some of the stupid playlists. I even enjoy some of the stupid playlists. So by me saying in the third sentence of my original post, "The best thing I feel is to just let them think what they want and tell them that you respectfully disagree." is pretty much what you were saying, so I don't know why you were thinking my attitude is dividing the Halo community. 

I was referring to the title of this thread and how it is believed that these opinions and attitudes should be changed and how you typed,  "Or if you don't feel like being nice, call them a fucktard". 

Here it is implied that your opinions are superior which does alienate.

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How can this be changed? What's the best way to change this perception? Can it ever be changed?

It's easy to change. Get people to stop having sex with their own sister.

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A guy with some sense by the name of "Zoba" on Gaf posted this

 

 

Your issues lie with a fundamental problem Halo hasn't yet addressed since its inception, but starting players with SMGs/ARs would be going backwards.

 

Players should never spawn without a mid-ranged, headshot capable weapon that has a scope. They need to be able to assist teammates from range, ping snipers watching their spawns, and quickly jump back into the fight. The need to pick up a BR off of the map slows the game down and creates a myriad of other problems regardless of the skill of the teams.

 

But the fault lies in the way the sandbox treats automatic weapons. These are made to be entry-level spray-and-pray weapons that are easy to get kills with, and that's a big part of the problem. By design, they end up being vastly inferior to the precision weapons. IMO, it should be the opposite. Autos that are placed on the map should have an important and relevant advantage over the other weapons. ARs would have big magazines and give the player better camoflauge; Plasma Rifles would stun players; Brute/Forerunner weapons would leave sustained damage or do more damage when you have an overshield, and so on. By making them powerful, giving them unique traits, and reducing their aim assist and stability, they'll be desirable and take skill to use.

 

This way, we'd give players a capable utility weapon off of spawn - one that can still outpace these automatics and support you throughout the entire game if you so choose - and then we'd place competent autos on the map and treat them like mid-tier weapons, instead of something you just throw away when you find a BR. If you're going to pick up Camo, maybe you'd go pick up the AR for the increased camoflauge. If you've picked up Overshield, maybe you'll dual wield spikers to make use of those perks.

 

IMO, this increases the meta game, broadens the sandbox, and doesn't handicap people off of their spawn. The best part is, this was already in the game to an extent. The AR made your camo activate faster in Halo CE. CE's Plasma Rifle also had plasma stun, and Brute weapons did extra melee damage in Halo 3.

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I was referring to the title of this thread and how it is believed that these opinions and attitudes should be changed and how you typed,  "Or if you don't feel like being nice, call them a fucktard". 

Here it is implied that your opinions are superior which does alienate.

 

I said if he wants to be mean, he could say that. It was supposed to be taken as a joke, not literal. I really didn't think I would need to explain that or put an emoticon somewhere in my post for people to realize a comment was facetious. 

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"Zoba" on Neogaf posted this:

 

 

 

"Your issues lie with a fundamental problem Halo hasn't yet addressed since its inception, but starting players with SMGs/ARs would be going backwards.

 

Players should never spawn without a mid-ranged, headshot capable weapon that has a scope. They need to be able to assist teammates from range, ping snipers watching their spawns, and quickly jump back into the fight. The need to pick up a BR off of the map slows the game down and creates a myriad of other problems regardless of the skill of the teams.

 

But the fault lies in the way the sandbox treats automatic weapons. These are made to be entry-level spray-and-pray weapons that are easy to get kills with, and that's a big part of the problem. By design, they end up being vastly inferior to the precision weapons. IMO, it should be the opposite. Autos that are placed on the map should have an important and relevant advantage over the other weapons. ARs would have big magazines and give the player better camoflauge; Plasma Rifles would stun players; Brute/Forerunner weapons would leave sustained damage or do more damage when you have an overshield, and so on. By making them powerful, giving them unique traits, and reducing their aim assist and stability, they'll be desirable and take skill to use.

 

This way, we'd give players a capable utility weapon off of spawn - one that can still outpace these automatics and support you throughout the entire game if you so choose - and then we'd place competent autos on the map and treat them like mid-tier weapons, instead of something you just throw away when you find a BR. If you're going to pick up Camo, maybe you'd go pick up the AR for the increased camoflauge. If you've picked up Overshield, maybe you'll dual wield spikers to make use of those perks.

 

IMO, this increases the meta game, broadens the sandbox, and doesn't handicap people off of their spawn. The best part is, this was already in the game to an extent. The AR made your camo activate faster in Halo CE. CE's Plasma Rifle also had plasma stun, and Brute weapons did extra melee damage in Halo 3".

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A guy with some sense by the name of "Zoba" on Gaf posted this

 

 

Your issues lie with a fundamental problem Halo hasn't yet addressed since its inception, but starting players with SMGs/ARs would be going backwards.

 

Players should never spawn without a mid-ranged, headshot capable weapon that has a scope. They need to be able to assist teammates from range, ping snipers watching their spawns, and quickly jump back into the fight. The need to pick up a BR off of the map slows the game down and creates a myriad of other problems regardless of the skill of the teams.

 

But the fault lies in the way the sandbox treats automatic weapons. These are made to be entry-level spray-and-pray weapons that are easy to get kills with, and that's a big part of the problem. By design, they end up being vastly inferior to the precision weapons. IMO, it should be the opposite. Autos that are placed on the map should have an important and relevant advantage over the other weapons. ARs would have big magazines and give the player better camoflauge; Plasma Rifles would stun players; Brute/Forerunner weapons would leave sustained damage or do more damage when you have an overshield, and so on. By making them powerful, giving them unique traits, and reducing their aim assist and stability, they'll be desirable and take skill to use.

 

This way, we'd give players a capable utility weapon off of spawn - one that can still outpace these automatics and support you throughout the entire game if you so choose - and then we'd place competent autos on the map and treat them like mid-tier weapons, instead of something you just throw away when you find a BR. If you're going to pick up Camo, maybe you'd go pick up the AR for the increased camoflauge. If you've picked up Overshield, maybe you'll dual wield spikers to make use of those perks.

 

IMO, this increases the meta game, broadens the sandbox, and doesn't handicap people off of their spawn. The best part is, this was already in the game to an extent. The AR made your camo activate faster in Halo CE. CE's Plasma Rifle also had plasma stun, and Brute weapons did extra melee damage in Halo 3.

 

Good words

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I stay away from other halo forums just so I don't have to read idiotic mental-gymnastics logic like Sephzilla's. No one seems to get that for all the complaining about the pistol that goes on, EVERYONE has one. I can't even finish typing this it's too blatantly obvious for me to spend a lot of time on.

 

Since GAF is full of nut-swinging developer apologists, they should at least be made aware of the fact that the Halo 3 "Tips" that showed while matchmaking was searching had a joke about how SMGs on Coagulation might not have been a good idea. They openly admitted it didn't work well and decided to laugh about it rather than realize that maybe they don't always have the best ideas for how to make competitively balanced gametypes. Hubris.

 

Not to mention all of the h2 matchmaking leaderboards were full of nothing but MLG players for the entirety of the time they existed.

 

CT, NeoGAF whether you believe it or not, is a enormous community of gaming professionals, developers, designers, media, casuals, hardcores, gamers, etc...

 

Frankie from 343 posts in that very thread I linked. He talks to these people. Luckily though, I've seen 60% posters there in that very thread who think the way we do about Halo and about 40% who think the Bungie default way.

 

It just cringes me when people post things like that, they genuinely feel the way they do, which is fine, but I'd hate for that drivel to pour over into Frankie's desk or 343's and design decisions get made based on posts like that, especially if that's how they view their main source of sales coming from...the accessible audience.

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I agree that SMG/AR starts are not good for competitive play, but that doesn't mean they dont have their own place in the game.

 

By advocating for all the play-lists in the game to start with a BR by default, you end up sounding just as ignorant as people who only want AR starts in default play-lists.

 

The fact is H2/H3 did have SMG/AR start play-lists, and the people who prefer that play-style have a right to play what they like as well even if its not 100 percent competitively balanced. AR starts is "classic Halo" IMO.

 

BTB for one is a bigger team game-type not based on individual battles and more on Sandbox diversity, that may benefit in some player's eyes of having SMG starts or at least the option for one.

 

I dont see anything wrong with the "casual" wanting SMG/AR starts in the game, just as I dont with MLG players wanting BR starts with no radar regardless of their logic.

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Though I never want to see an automatic weapon with the type of damage it does like the Halo 4 SAW, the one thing I like about it is that you can hold down the trigger and just spray away, but if you pulse it you can also hit people from far away pretty accurately, basically mimicking a precision loadout weapon to the closest extent possible. 

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"Ignorant logic" is a little extreme. It's a difference of opinion. The developers are weighing his opinion just as much as yours: not at all.

 

The developers want to make something fun. They only value feedback insofar as it can help them tune their game into something more fun. They're rightfully not interested in long-winded diatribes about what is fair and competitive and high skill gap, except as it relates to people enjoying the game. You should steer your argument towards the idea that the game is more addictive when every death teaches you something, and every respawn is your next try to do better. The second you feel like you have no chance to succeed is the second the game stops being fun. 

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"Ignorant logic" is a little extreme. It's a difference of opinion. The developers are weighing his opinion just as much as yours: not at all.

 

The developers want to make something fun. They only value feedback insofar as it can help them tune their game into something more fun. They're rightfully not interested in long-winded diatribes about what is fair and competitive and high skill gap, except as it relates to people enjoying the game. You should steer your argument towards the idea that the game is more addictive when every death teaches you something, and every respawn is your next try to do better. The second you feel like you have no chance to succeed is the second the game stops being fun.

 

BR/AR/DMR/Sword/SMG/CE Pistol/Rocket starts make no difference at all for 95-99% of people. The second it stops being fun is when matchmaking stops working and awful people have to match good ones. Close games are fun for everyone involved no matter the skill level.

 

BR start games are fun for bad players who still manage to go 16-12. Nearly all of the hatred of BR or DMR starts in Halo comes from people getting goosed and deciding it was the weapon's fault instead of their skill level. People are quick to blame anything but themselves and gametypes and settings that more clearly separate better players are quickly blamed.

 

AR start does begin to matter a lot more at very high levels of play, but honestly, if you make MATCHMAKING work it fixes most of the "problems" between casual and competitive.

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