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aBaldGinger

Are Power Weapons Required for Map Movement?

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No you fucking cant.

 

Have a camo weapon attachment instead.

Still more romantic than twilight

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So... This Waypoint post. Is it pro personal ordinance? Pro all weapons being part of loadouts? Or pro no additional weapons beyond what you spawn with? I ask because the rich get richer argument applies even more so against PODs.

This kind of sums up many of the reasons why many in the competitive community are adamant the spawning weapon should be a strong utility weapon with a fast kill time. And a situation role based advantage meta game is superior to a power weapon dominance one. Arena needs a good counter meta game.

You can't forget, one of the biggest benefits of pick ups is limiting the number of specific weapons found on a map at a time. That and stuff like being able to predict what a player has and diversifying tactics beyond just power positions and line of sight.

In answer to the thread. You need objectives to encourage map movement. Pick ups do that. They're not the only thing that encourages movement sure but I do think Infinity and cod do suffer from a camping problem that could have been averted with something like pick ups.

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What he doesn't get is that just because you get the power weapon doesn't mean you automatically win. You still have to be able to use the weapon effectively and to your advantage to get the kills to win. And to say that power weapons don't promote map movement is absurd. Look at CoD for example. You literally have no reason to not go hide in that building with your claymores and sniper and build up your killstreaks.

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Basically, the OP states that he feels that the concept of power weapons should be reworked because they:

1. Are incredibly difficult to counter with standard weapons and thus represent an unfair advantage (especially when used in tandem with a power position)

2. Reduce variety by having the entire game revolve around control of power weapons

3. Interrupt "normal" map flow by causing rushes to areas that are made undesirable by the map design

1. That's the whole incentive behind getting power weapons. It's completely fair as long as both teams start at an equal distance from a game-changing power weapon. Of course, this rule can't quite be applied to asymmetrical maps, but you can even it out with proper design. Since that's a difficult task to do, you almost never see forged asymmetricals.

 

2. How does it make sense? If you remove power weapons, now everyone is using shit utilities, which is even LESS variety. Making the game revolve around controlling power item (weapon, positions, power-ups) is fundamental in arena shooters, it's the base of it. This is just stupid.

 

3. There's no such thing as normal map flow. You have people who sit in an area that allows them to contain opponents and spawn trap them. Opponents are trying to get out of their spawn area because it's easily controlled and pressured. Power items make it so the winning team can't just sit in your base for the entire game and spawn trap the shit out of you to end up winning because of a few kills at the beginning. Likewise, it also makes it so you can't hide for the rest of the game because of a few kill lead you managed to pull off. It gives to losing team a fair chance at getting back in control without handing it to them for free, but can also secure a solid lead granted that the winning team has proper control.

 

Once again, I wish to reiterate that there is no such thing as "normal map flow". If you create a map that's a plain platform, you have no reason to move around as long as you're able to see your opponents and their spawns at all time (assuming that your weapon isn't a piece of shit with spread or bloom and makes you miss for being able to aim from a distance). Advantages are the SOLE incentive to move around a map. It can be an elevated position, an area that helps you secure a power item's next spawn, an area that allows you to see a lot of the maps or your opponents spawns, or just to trick your opponents into thinking you're somewhere and catching them off guard, etc. Otherwise, there's no reason to move around.

 

At high level, no one wanders aimlessly to look at the scenery, and I'm guessing the person who posted this doesn't realize it.

 

 

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1. That's the whole incentive behind getting power weapons. It's completely fair as long as both teams start at an equal distance from a game-changing power weapon. Of course, this rule can't quite be applied to asymmetrical maps, but you can even it out with proper design. Since that's a difficult task to do, you almost never see forged asymmetricals.

 

2. How does it make sense? If you remove power weapons, now everyone is using shit utilities, which is even LESS variety. Making the game revolve around controlling power item (weapon, positions, power-ups) is fundamental in arena shooters, it's the base of it. This is just stupid.

 

3. There's no such thing as normal map flow. You have people who sit in an area that allows them to contain opponents and spawn trap them. Opponents are trying to get out of their spawn area because it's easily controlled and pressured. Power items make it so the winning team can't just sit in your base for the entire game and spawn trap the shit out of you to end up winning because of a few kills at the beginning. Likewise, it also makes it so you can't hide for the rest of the game because of a few kill lead you managed to pull off. It gives to losing team a fair chance at getting back in control without handing it to them for free, but can also secure a solid lead granted that the winning team has proper control.

 

Once again, I wish to reiterate that there is no such thing as "normal map flow". If you create a map that's a plain platform, you have no reason to move around as long as you're able to see your opponents and their spawns at all time (assuming that your weapon isn't a piece of shit with spread or bloom and makes you miss for being able to aim from a distance). Advantages are the SOLE incentive to move around a map. It can be an elevated position, an area that helps you secure a power item's next spawn, an area that allows you to see a lot of the maps or your opponents spawns, or just to trick your opponents into thinking you're somewhere and catching them off guard, etc. Otherwise, there's no reason to move around.

 

At high level, no one wanders aimlessly to look at the scenery, and I'm guessing the person who posted this doesn't realize it.

you weren't supposed to reply to that post smh

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An interesting concept.

 

 

Instead of power weapons spawning, power positions spawning. Such a concept would be hard to implement, but if done right, it'd serve a viable alternative to power weapons.

 

 

Perhaps, the best would be both styles in a map that spawn in a manner that was advertised to have been in Infinity settings. Dynamic, random, but well telegraphed with forewarning. At least a 20 second warning. "Strong point A fortified in...!" 

 

 

While this would be kind of cool to implement, I think you would end up with a Halo/Battlefield mashup instead of Halo/COD. To get a new power position, one would have to be destroyed, which means destructible environments. This is a cool aesthetic, but kids would just run around shooting holes with rockets and sniper shots. Then for a new power position you would have to have a reason for it to come into the field of play. Seeing as how most power positions have some sort of height advantage, the terrain would have to shift. This means you could have things like ships falling from the sky, cliff formations form quakes causing terrain shits, or completely opening up new sections of a map through large doors, etc. Like I said, cool thought, but I don't think it is something that should be done in Halo because the maps might need to be quite large for this to be feasible without killing everyone on the map.

 

Since this would be power positions replacing power weapons, if team1 has a power position and has equal fire power as everyone in a lesser position, how is team2 going to get him down if he doesn't have a reason to move for a while until the new power position comes into play? All the while, someone else from team1 would be able to get in position for the new power position since their team already have map control.

 

You could also have the same argument about power positions vs power weapons, but the weapons add a new dynamic and a new level of skill and you can spawn more weapons that positions to cause movement which would let power weapons win out with that argument. Most people can shoot a BR with decent accuracy, but some people are atrocious with the sniper or another power weapon. It makes people practice and play, plus adds in team roles for well versed teams. 

 

This is what I thought of when you mentioned spawning power positions, if you meant something else, I'd love to hear it. I could have it completely wrong.

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1. That's the whole incentive behind getting power weapons. It's completely fair as long as both teams start at an equal distance from a game-changing power weapon. Of course, this rule can't quite be applied to asymmetrical maps, but you can even it out with proper design. Since that's a difficult task to do, you almost never see forged asymmetricals.

 

Equal distance really isn't enough to balance a power weapon if the weapon itself is inherently unbalanced and poorly placed. The beam rifle spawn on exile is equally far away from both bases, but as soon as you win the first engagement, battles become incredibly lopsided. Since the beam rifle is so easy to use and it spawns in a "power position" as well,  I think that example fits the definition of an "unfair advantage" fairly well.

In my opinon, as soon as you only need to win one single engagement and are rewarded with an advantage that will net you 4+ easy kills, balance starts being comprimised. Having 4 ammo rockets spawn in a map with lots of confined spaces really doesn't do most maps any good,while a sniper can also score you up to 10 kills (?) without being unbalanced because it is somewhat difficult to pull of.

 

2. How does it make sense? If you remove power weapons, now everyone is using shit utilities, which is even LESS variety. Making the game revolve around controlling power item (weapon, positions, power-ups) is fundamental in arena shooters, it's the base of it. This is just stupid.

 

I agree in general, however from a Infinity slayer standpoint, which I believe he is arguing from I can attest to the fact it degenerates down to "get saw and sniper and wreck noobs". Thats all I do in Halo 4 anymore and while its fun piling on the multikills and killsprees, its not particularly diverse gameplay.

 

3. There's no such thing as normal map flow. You have people who sit in an area that allows them to contain opponents and spawn trap them. Opponents are trying to get out of their spawn area because it's easily controlled and pressured. Power items make it so the winning team can't just sit in your base for the entire game and spawn trap the shit out of you to end up winning because of a few kills at the beginning. Likewise, it also makes it so you can't hide for the rest of the game because of a few kill lead you managed to pull off. It gives to losing team a fair chance at getting back in control without handing it to them for free, but can also secure a solid lead granted that the winning team has proper control.

 

Once again, I wish to reiterate that there is no such thing as "normal map flow". If you create a map that's a plain platform, you have no reason to move around as long as you're able to see your opponents and their spawns at all time (assuming that your weapon isn't a piece of shit with spread or bloom and makes you miss for being able to aim from a distance). Advantages are the SOLE incentive to move around a map. It can be an elevated position, an area that helps you secure a power item's next spawn, an area that allows you to see a lot of the maps or your opponents spawns, or just to trick your opponents into thinking you're somewhere and catching them off guard, etc. Otherwise, there's no reason to move around.

 

At high level, no one wanders aimlessly to look at the scenery, and I'm guessing the person who posted this doesn't realize it.

 

 

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Just gonna copy my Waypoint post in this thread in here:

I don't see the problem with this since Halo 3 made it the right way.
It's just a matter of map design:
You need to have powerful positions and powerful weapons.
Rule 1: You cannot see power-weapon-spots from power-positions.
Rule 2: Powerful weapons are placed in relatively high-exposed positions.
Rule 3: Getting the power weapon means you lose the powerful position.
Rule 4: Getting the powerful position means you lose the power weapon.

That makes up a big part of the game inside the game.
You need to evaluate if you rather hold your position after you gained map control to keep it or if you rather leave your position to get the power weapon which isn't even guaranteed.
I think that's something that Halo 3 has done very well with most medium/small size maps. 
Snowbound is a perfect example for this:
You wanted map control, you stay on top of the base.
You wanted power weapons/ups, you give up map control and get into dangerous places.

If you have two equally skilled teams with a high amount of meta-knowledge you would see that the team without power weapons/ups tries to break the opponents map control.
But if you would match up two teams with different amounts of meta-knowledge than the better team would win anyway, with or without power weapons (in 99% of all cases).

This is really simplified and there's much more to it! But it's almost the same as the complex version of it. (Player trade, positioning, angles, map control, movement, etc.) Complex layers of the meta.

 

This is really simplified and there's much more to it! But it's almost the same as the complex version of it. (Player trade, positioning, angles, map control, movement, etc.) Complex layers of the meta.

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Equal distance really isn't enough to balance a power weapon if the weapon itself is inherently unbalanced and poorly placed. The beam rifle spawn on exile is equally far away from both bases, but as soon as you win the first engagement, battles become incredibly lopsided. Since the beam rifle is so easy to use and it spawns in a "power position" as well,  I think that example fits the definition of an "unfair advantage" fairly well.

In my opinon, as soon as you only need to win one single engagement and are rewarded with an advantage that will net you 4+ easy kills, balance starts being comprimised. Having 4 ammo rockets spawn in a map with lots of confined spaces really doesn't do most maps any good,while a sniper can also score you up to 10 kills (?) without being unbalanced because it is somewhat difficult to pull of.

The point you're making about the weapon being placed in a power position isn't a problem with power weapons, it's a problem with piss poor map design. Equal distance for both teams is all that matters for the sake of balance when placing a power weapon on a map. Now if the power weapon happens to be in a power position, that just means the person who decided to place that weapon on the map doesn't have a firm grasp on map design, and that map doesn't deserve being used.

As for your example on rockets, then if you think one engagement doesn't deserve 4 free kills, then send more people and make it count. Whoever comes out winner will deserve it. However, on Pit for instance, if you send your whole team there, that means no one is getting sniper, or overshield and there's a good chance you won't get to make proper use of rockets. 

You're debating stuff that doesn't have much to do with the concept of power weapons itself rather than how power weapons and maps are designed and balanced. Two different things.

 

I agree in general, however from a Infinity slayer standpoint, which I believe he is arguing from I can attest to the fact it degenerates down to "get saw and sniper and wreck noobs"Thats all I do in Halo 4 anymore and while its fun piling on the multikills and killsprees, its not particularly diverse gameplay

Let's just pretend Infinity Slayer was a thing and we can start moving forward.

Also, respond outside the quote box next time, it was a struggle.

 

you weren't supposed to reply to that post smh

 

I'll do what I please!!

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Team Slayer should definetly have Power weapons to promote movement.

Objective gametypes promote movement by it self so power weapons are not necessary, but i would probably still want power weapons on them aswell.

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Power Weapons and Power Ups promote map movement. 

 

Other things like vehicle placement like the Banshee on Ascension in Halo 2 and Equipment in Halo 3 also promoted map movement. 

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Team Slayer would not be a competitive game type without power weapons. The power weapons sort of become the "objective" in a sense.

More accurately power weapons are secondary objectives. Primary objective represent score and secondary objectives aid in the acquisition of primary objectives.

 

The desire to acquire secondary weapons varies and that variation is what makes the game more interesting. Map movement is simply a side affect. The motivator to acquire is the craving for raw power.

 

This is how I view power weapons as a cause and affect.

 

This is why some players would lose the first two tiers in invasion as quickly as they could- so that they could get to tier three where the scorpion and banshee would become available. Power is craved and absolute power is addictive.

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Advantages are the SOLE incentive to move around a map

.

 

Yes and No. 

 

I do agree advantages are by far the most significant part of map movement.  This doesn't require pickups.

Your below quote elaborates why it doesn't require pickups.

 

 

It can be an elevated position, an area that allows you to see a lot of the maps or your opponents spawns, or just to trick your opponents into thinking you're somewhere and catching them off guard, etc.

 

 

Like I said, cool thought, but I don't think it is something that should be done in Halo because the maps might need to be quite large for this to be feasible without killing everyone on the map.

 

A platform that periodically raises / lowers itself is something that could fit a 4v4 map that isn't overly flashy or complex, nor does it involve killing everyone on the map.

We could get crazier and have teleporters appear and disappear, routes that open and close periodically (or manually), etc.

None of this requires giant map design or pelicans falling out of the sky.

 

Anyways the old position doesn't need to be destroyed, it just needs to be altered.

Going back to first example, Platform1 rises while Platform2 lowers.

 

More accurately power weapons are secondary objectives. Primary objective represent score and secondary objectives aid in the acquisition of primary objectives.

 

Power Weapons aren't the only type of Map Pickup though.  There's power ups, ammo refills, medkits, and grenades (unless you consider them a power weapon), among other things.

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good lord at that waypoint post....lmfao....but yes...we need power weapons and powerups to force map movement...

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Are incredibly difficult to counter with standard weapons and thus represent an unfair advantage (especially when used in tandem with a power position)

 

Difficult - Gee, maybe try making the standard weapon better.

Unfair - Static timers and notifications for incoming power weapon spawns.

 

done.

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dude power weapons are just there to be awesome and destroy ****. We try to make them balanced so that they take skill

That's why its important to have strong basic guns so that you can still break setups of power weapon players.

 

Its an enormous, quint-e-fucking-ssential aspect to arena shooters

 

in direct repy to ur q? If you are talking about 4v4/5v5 team Halo, then yes I think so. In slayer it is a bit random, but in objective, rockets and powerups are why a lot of caps or big hill time can happen! Without them, we would have to wait for perfect plays every time and it would be like soccer.(boring)

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Equal distance for both teams is all that matters for the sake of balance when placing a power weapon on a map.

Wrong; the power weapon itself must be balanced against the spawning weapon, whether that be by power, difficulty, or limitations.

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Halo Waypoint threads are where whiny 13 year olds go to complain they cant rank up or kill someone because they didnt aim for the head. Though personally I like some of the threads I come across every once in a while, I hardly ever read stuff there. Beyond Ent, Bungie.net, and other places are much better and more friendly/mature to interact with fellow gamers in a respectful way. The only things I ever do on Waypoint is check up with 343s updates, look at my player profile and read the particularly funny tweets every couple days. 

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Well lets look at an example. Construct TS. Is there any reason a team couldn't sit bottom instead of top? If there are no power weapons or power ups to search for, then why move?

 

Edit: I also think that 343i needs to reevaluate the way they create weapons. They need more niche weapons and less power weapons. In Halo CE, you had the plasma rifle that hindered movement. In Halo 2, you had the plasma pistol for the noob combo or to take out vehicles. In Halo 3, the spikers dominated up close, the mauler was nice in situations, and the brute shot was a 1 shot beatdown weapon that had a niche role. In Halo 4 it felt as though everything was either a loadout weapon or a power weapon.

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No.

 

Power Weapons are not required for map movement. A good map requires you to move to win.

 

Now I will say Power Weapons can/most likely IMPROVE map movement.

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So as I was thinking about this topic, it occurred to me that power weapons are not just on the map to promote competition for a secondary objective that results in multiple games (game within a game) and resulting in movement. But there is another aspect not mentioned - the spawning of the weapon on time.

 

Power positions always exist. They are static. They can be challenged and acquired at any time. But power weapons spawn at specific times. They make the game play DYNAMIC in nature, because they are not always present. This means that the emphasis of the game changes back and forth between power weapons and power positions. The game literally has changing secondary objective emphasis.

 

For this reason I think that the power weapons should always be slightly to significantly more powerful than power positions. They should be capable of disloding those in power positions - to threaten the power positions enough that players cannot form a static game play and rely upon a static strategy.

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No.

 

Power Weapons are not required for map movement. A good map requires you to move to win.

 

oh word? good luck getting top control on prisoner (good map) without power weapons or power ups. Better yet, insert any map you want into this scenario...My team got the first kill on *insert map* and now we are going to sit in one area, because we don't have to worry abut the other team getting power weapons or powerups. Also, before you say "hey midship worked"...go back and watch vod from tournaments, movement stopped after a certain amount of kills and it turned into a peek shooting fest with the rare push. Also, how boring and predictable is it when a team sets up at Pink and their base and the only thing you can do is charge and team br?

 

powerups and at least one power weapon should be on every single map.

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