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Andy

Did Forge ruin Halo

Did Forge ruin Halo?  

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  1. 1. Did Forge ruin Halo?



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Well... 343i took the feedback from Crimson. Remember guys?

 

*343 says Crimson is a map pack of medium maps*

 

*Maps are as big as Complex*

 

*Community Rages*

 

*We get decent maps from Skyline & Castle*

 

*Profit*

 

Seems that we have to rage more and moar.

You think they made those maps in the 2 months between DLCs yeah?

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SHHHHHHHH! Beli343 Doju, Join to the darkside.  :kappa:

Fine, I believe the new Halo will be the biggest esport.

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Fine, I believe the new Halo will be the biggest esport.

Yes it is my apprentice, there are none who appose us, the galaxy is ours now. 

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Many of you are under the illusion that if we didn't have Forge, 343 would care more about map design. They really won't.

 

 

 

Yes and No. Halo 3 was very limited but it sent us down the spiraling hill of varied options.

 

Pros:

  • Created the Forge Community
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  • Weapon and Spawn adjustments for current maps (however this is also a curse, as weapon variety for competitive play is no more)
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  • Machinima
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Cons:

  • Weakens importance of DLC
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  • Weakens the importance of using and playing dev-made maps
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  • Everyone and their grandma thinks they know how to make maps but if I had a dollar for every time a random asked me to play Romper Stompers (@macex42) I'd be rich
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Edit: I truly hope 343 removes Forge as a test in Halo 5 (blame Legacy Tech, or Future Tech, or whatever they want) and include like 20+ maps to see what we can come up with for competitive play.

-"Reduces weapon variety". Binary Rifle. Incineration Cannon. Do you actually want these? Weapon variety, contrary to popular belief, isn't needed, especially when most weapons DO THE EXACT SAME THING. All weapons accomplished something totally different in CE (Yes, even the Needler has the unique status as a totally useless weapon), and were properly skill-indexed as well.

 

-"Weakens the importance of DLC". If DLC was important, it would be free.

 

-"Weakens the importance of dev maps". Dev maps are garbage without Forge.

 

-"Bad maps are made". OK. So?

 

-Yeah, have fun with your 20+ Complex remakes. You seem to forget the quality/quantity rule that generally constricts game development.

 

I think Forge is a really cool idea, but the over abundance of choices and settings has split the community more times than I can count.

 

A universal rule-set put in place by the developer (my main guys   :ghost:  :quinn:  ) would be a really good option in my opinion.  Granted it is impossible to please everyone so 100% of the community will obviously not agree with them, but I think as far as Halo 4 goes that Ghosts v4 settings were liked by a majority of competitors. 

 

While I sympathize with the V4 designers' attempt at making Halo 4 a competitive game, they are clearly bias toward H3, and I despise Halo 3 to my very core. Also, their choice to only adopt "certain types" of Forge maps (read: Midship remakes) didn't help. Forge alleviates this, to a degree.

 

Ive always thought forge did more bad then good for the series. infact, the only good thing i think forge has ever done is fix a couple of really bad spawns in H3.

 

I feel it led to less effort being put into developer maps, and far less importance in creating new DLC maps. Since forge has come into halo, there hasnt been a single GOOD map in my honest opinion. Not a SINGLE ONE. And that has forced us to create our own maps. Some of which have been pretty good (at least some of the reach forge maps), but alot are just terrible. it's also led to us continually remaking Midship, Sanctuary & The pit for competitive play, and allowing professionals to continually play the maps they know best, and know they're good at in each new halo game instead of playing something fresh and new.

 

I'd actually like to see forge gone from the halo series. Infact, one of the things ive been most excited about for a  possible H2 remake is; NO FORGE MAPS!!

 

@@Andy did you happen to see my post in the "unpopular opinions" thread and decide to make this thread on the subject? I just recently said in there that i thought forge only hurt halo (or something like that), and it got completely ignored and passed over without any discussion.

 

Ugh...yeah, no, you HEAVILY overestimate the skill of 343's map designers. With or without Forge, they are going to release nothing but bad maps with the occasional golden nugget. It looks like you are trying to find a scapegoat for the bad maps we've received over the years, and I'm here to tell you its not Forge fault, its the decline of skill on the part of map designers.This is like blaming video games for school shootings in America, as opposed to, maybe, gun laws and mental health issues.

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I'm sure forge split the community, but as it turns out, there are other games people can play (and WOULD play if Halo had none more to offer). If we didn't have forge, Halo would just have those people who like the BS that is entailed in default gameplay. The community would be unified, but would be very tiny.

 

In the context of MLG, AGL, whoever, while they didn't make the greatest decisions for maps, they didn't know where else to turn, since the disc maps were fucking garbage (but I commend the efforts of those who tried to make Boardwalk viable)

 

Edit: I truly hope 343 removes Forge as a test in Halo 5 (blame Legacy Tech, or Future Tech, or whatever they want) and include like 20+ maps to see what we can come up with for competitive play.

 

Well, Halo 4's maps were said to be "built with competitive in mind," so I hope this is never attempted.

 

I'd rather 343 try to implement a map editor that makes it harder for people to build a good map.

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Edit: I truly hope 343 removes Forge as a test in Halo 5 (blame Legacy Tech, or Future Tech, or whatever they want) and include like 20+ maps to see what we can come up with for competitive play.

 

I do not think removing forge would make halo 5 better. They should already give 20+ on disc at launch with forge. The problem was forge it was the fact that the game was so heavily focused on larger maps and that most didnt play with for the competitive community. There is nothing wrong with forgers being able to create great maps for the competitive community. If 343i gives forge an overhaul then you could see some amazing looking/playing maps.

 

But to say forge should be removed is dumb. They should gives us lots of great maps and still give us forge for customs. Heck they probably wont add forge maps to halo 5 unless fore is upgraded a lot. I think if anything that forge made halo 4 last longer. Could you imagine 4 without forge? All there would be is terrible on disc maps with no competitive maps to play.

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To anyone who thinks removing forge would be a good idea:

Imagine they hadn't included forge in Halo 4. We would have been stuck with playing pre-turbo map layouts. And zero forge maps

 

Now the TTD v4 settings werent exactly "good" by a longshot, but had there been no forge the game would have probably died even faster.

 

Halo 4 is a trainwreck already but that would have made it  even worse.

Much worse in fact.

Do you really want a Halo game that is so bad the current Halo 4 puts it to shame?

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I don't think the absence of Forge would make the maps any better or competitive-- they're going to be mostly garbage no matter what.

 

Overall you can't prove that Forge makes the developer make worse maps, but you can prove Forge has positively affected many communities and aspects in the game.

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I feel like saying Forge is responsible for the downfall of Halo maps is a horrible excuse for lazy map design.

 

Time and time again, Custom Games have proved to be more entertaining and long lasting than Match Making, even in the Halo 3 days. People have created play-spaces that far surpass Bungie's and 343i's map designs with the simple tools given to them; they've even shaped the MM playlists ever since the growing popularity of Grifball and Infection. 343i just need a good kick to the head to understand that what we've been given is not up to par, and make some good maps to start with. That, along with Forge, can make a Halo game successful.

 

So please stop blaming the one game mode that has made Halo stand the test of time. Without Forge, this series would have been dead long ago.

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Forge didn't ruin Halo.

 

Forge is a large part of the reason why Halo 3 and Halo: Reach were as popular as they were. It spawned the ginormous Forge community, while also creating sub-communities for Grifball, Mini Games, Race, Competitive Forging, 1v1 / 2v2 communities, Rube Goldberg machines and many more. This is a huge reason why ForgeHub was one of the biggest Halo sites during Halo 3 and Halo: Reach.

 

Additionally, without Forge, Halo 3, Reach, and Halo 4 would’ve been dead on arrival for the competitive scene. Imagine having to play all of the maps with the default spawns and weapons, and without adjustments.

 

Imagine justifying playing Team Slayer on Pit or Narrows or any other symmetric map but without side specific spawns. How about Construct with a Flamethrower, Spartan Laser, two Maulers, no power ups, etc.?

 

What maps would we have had to play in Reach? Countdown, Zealot (with the space area), and what?

 

How about all of the Halo 4 maps with random ordnance spots littered throughout the map?

 

Forge has saved Halo’s ass since 2007. Yes, Forge distances the competitive experience from the default one, but there would be no competitive experience in those games without it.

 

 

Well said APK =] Great post!

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but you can prove Forge has positively affected many communities and aspects in the game.

Prove it

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I don't believe forge itself was the cause of Halo's downfall, but the way Forge was forced upon us ruined Halo. In Reach for example, Bungie was preaching Forge way before launch. They believed they didnt have to put much effort into making maps, because we the player could make all the maps! In turn we saw a degradation of Halo maps. In H4, Forge was very similar, but much improved and with some new mechanisms. The fact that H4 was about 80% BTB maps led us, the community to make smaller maps in order to have that Halo feel again. Honestly I love Forge, but I would rather have no Forge if that meant the devs put more effort into making better maps. Or they can make Forge a real map editor so we dont have to use building blocks to make a competitive map. 

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I'd say it's hard to deny that that Bungie at least slacked with map design in Reach because of forge.  It doesn't seem to have affected 343's approach with Halo 4, but Bungie just build a couple average maps in Forge World and called it good.

 

(FYI: No, I don't think forge "ruined" Halo.  Or even hurt it.)

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Key word is was, at this point its a watered down scapegoat for poorly designed developer on disc maps, and DLC 

Well I meant IS actually...I dont know why I didint see that till now. I love Forge and its a great part of Halo nowadays. 343 Industries just needs to drastically improve it for the next big Halo game.

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Yes forge definitely ruined Halo and especially Halo 4.

 

We had to sacrifice some awesome competitive maps like Complex or Abandon for bad ones like Onyx or The Ark!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:kappa:

 

This thread is a troll right?

 

Abandon is actually a really good 2vs2 map IMO

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I'd say it's hard to deny that that Bungie at least slacked with map design in Reach because of forge.  It doesn't seem to have affected 343's approach with Halo 4, but Bungie just build a couple average maps in Forge World and called it good.

 

(FYI: No, I don't think forge "ruined" Halo.  Or even hurt it.)

 

I don't believe forge itself was the cause of Halo's downfall, but the way Forge was forced upon us ruined Halo. In Reach for example, Bungie was preaching Forge way before launch. They believed they didnt have to put much effort into making maps, because we the player could make all the maps! In turn we saw a degradation of Halo maps. In H4, Forge was very similar, but much improved and with some new mechanisms. The fact that H4 was about 80% BTB maps led us, the community to make smaller maps in order to have that Halo feel again. Honestly I love Forge, but I would rather have no Forge if that meant the devs put more effort into making better maps. Or they can make Forge a real map editor so we dont have to use building blocks to make a competitive map. 

I'l say it again. The team that designs forge, and the team that designs MP maps are two different teams. What one does will not affect the other.

 

Poor map design is your problem. Halo 4 having big maps was not because of fucking forge.

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Well I meant IS actually...I dont know why I didint see that till now. I love Forge and its a great part of Halo nowadays. 343 Industries just needs to drastically improve it for the next big Halo game.

Yea forge could be great imagine if they improved forge every title where we would be at now.

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I can't believe this is actually being discussed seriously. 

Let's play Halo 3 MLG with brute shots, power drains, bubble shields, hammers, and the rest of the silly stuff you'd find on the map... EXPLOSION BARRELS!!!

Let's play Halo Reach MLG with Countdown and Zealot and... oh wait.  Let's just wait over a year to add any more maps, let's just stick to Countdown and Zealot.

Let's play Halo 4 competitively without any weapons on the map.  RANDOM ORDINANCE FTW!!!

Did any of these things cross anyone's minds before voting yes?  You guys are being silly. 

 

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I can't believe this is actually being discussed seriously. 

 

Let's play Halo 3 MLG with brute shots, power drains, bubble shields, hammers, and the rest of the silly stuff you'd find on the map... EXPLOSION BARRELS!!!

 

Let's play Halo Reach MLG with Countdown and Zealot and... oh wait.  Let's just wait over a year to add any more maps, let's just stick to Countdown and Zealot.

 

Let's play Halo 4 competitively without any weapons on the map.  RANDOM ORDINANCE FTW!!!

 

Did any of these things cross anyone's minds before voting yes?  You guys are being silly. 

 

 

Adapt?

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No way. Silly forged Halo 3 maps were amazing. The default settings of newer games just sucked. That can't be attributed to forge.

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Adapt?

lol

I know you be trolling. 

Forge has basically been the only thing keeping us from pulling the plug on Halo for some time now.

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