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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Everyone just spits this one out with any reasoning. Other than a slightly more obstructed view, what is the issue with Smart Scope? Someone enlighten me because I think it was extremely well executed.

ADS was fine as it wasn't a 'true' ADS, even though it looked different it still essentially is the normal zoom and felt the same/fine for me.

 

My main issue with smart scope is probably an issue with the gun itself rather than the smart scope, I felt AR was massively overpowered with it and you should never be able to zoom in and kill some on cross map with an AR which I found myself doing alot. I also feel like AR shouldn't really have a smart scope function full stop, should just be this back up weapon you have for close range firing from the hip.

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With 1 Million dollars on the line, you can bet A LOT of people will buy and grind the shit out of the game to get that 1 Mill, personally? I dont think so.

 

If we can ever get the community to support something with money it should be a decent Halo clone instead of Halo 5.

I am tired of the "sales>gameplay" thing that 343 is forcing into the series.

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I really don't like Halo 3, but saying that Halo 5 plays faster is just ridiculous. It's extremely slow paced.

Slow base movement, slow kill times, slow spawning weapons,  and having to be really close for your BR to be effective all made Halo 3 slower than Halo 5. Besides Slayer on Guardian, which Halo 3 launch map was faster paced than any Halo 5 slayer map? 

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ADS was fine as it wasn't a 'true' ADS, even though it looked different it still essentially is the normal zoom and felt the same/fine for me.

 

My main issue with smart scope is probably an issue with the gun itself rather than the smart scope, I felt AR was massively overpowered with it and you should never be able to zoom in and kill some on cross map with an AR which I found myself doing alot. I also feel like AR shouldn't really have a smart scope function full stop, should just be this back up weapon you have for close range firing from the hip.

 

While I agree with you that the AR felt to powerfull at mid range I have to say that smart scope IS true ADS and is NOT the same as the standard Halo zoom.

Being in smart scope reduces the spread of your weapon by a huge amount (and that is true for AR BR SMG and so on) which is really against the basic formula of Halo because movement gets punished by having to deal with a higher spread (because if you keep moving you can't really scope in all the time but when you got a setup and just sit there it is easy to scope)

 

That way smart scope / ADS slows down the game because scoping reduces spread.

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Slow base movement, slow kill times, slow spawning weapons,  and having to be really close for your BR to be effective all made Halo 3 slower than Halo 5. Besides Slayer on Guardian, which Halo 3 launch map was faster paced than any Halo 5 slayer map? 

I guess you missed the part where everyone camped their asses off in H5. At least I saw the score limit almost all the time at H3 launch. Maybe its because I definitely played the beta at a higher level than I played H3 when that game launched but still. You'd get teams of players that just didn't move. It felt like 2010 Pit TS half the time you actually matched a full lobby of Pro rated players. A bunch of crouching assault rifle/SMG gods staring at their radar lol and you can't even get mad about it. It worked. You contested the power weapons once every couple of mins and the rest of the time played a passive game and you'd almost always win. 

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While I agree with you that the AR felt to powerfull at mid range I have to say that smart scope IS true ADS and is NOT the same as the standard Halo zoom.

Being in smart scope reduces the spread of your weapon by a huge amount (and that is true for AR BR SMG and so on) which is really against the basic formula of Halo because movement gets punished by having to deal with a higher spread (because if you keep moving you can't really scope in all the time but when you got a setup and just sit there it is easy to scope)

 

That way smart scope / ADS slows down the game because scoping reduces spread.

How does aiming reduce discourage movement? You don't strafe when you're zoomed in? 

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I guess you missed the part where everyone camped their asses off in H5. At least I saw the score limit almost all the time at H3 launch. Maybe its because I definitely played the beta at a higher level than I played H3 when that game launched but still. You'd get teams of players that just didn't move. It felt like 2010 Pit TS half the time you actually matched a full lobby of Pro rated players.

Yes because no one ever camped on The Pit, or Contruct, or High Ground, or Snowbound, or Isolation, or Epitaph or Last Resort! /s

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Giving people who sit somewhere (yeah it is easier to scope when you camp) a reduced spread is pretty bad im my opinion. Your spread should not be effected at all by scoping.

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Everyone just spits this one out with any reasoning. Other than a slightly more obstructed view, what is the issue with Smart Scope? Someone enlighten me because I think it was extremely well executed.

My problems with smartscope:

1. It's unsightly to my eyes when put with Halo.

2. It blocks off more of your view unnecessarily.

3. It's a constant in-your-face reminder that 343 undoubtedly wants nothing more than to turn Halo into a modern generic shooter for the $$$.

4. It's yet another thing that takes away from Halo's unique identity. Part of what makes Halo enjoyable for me is that magical 'feel' of the whole experience, and part of what contributes to the way the games feel is the visual design. When that's compromised, then the experience of playing Halo is compromised.

 

It's not enough to say: "Yeah but it doesn't technically harm gameplay, therefore it couldn't possibly be a bad addition".

If that were a defense of something, then why in the hell do we not have a gritty, military, generic, grey art-style for Halo yet? What are we waiting for!?! We need Halo to become more generic in that sense too because it might attract more modern gamers, and it doesn't impact gameplay. It seems obvious to me that if we're all going to defend smartscope with that reasoning, then something is amiss when considering that we aren't all hammering at 343 for a more generic art-style in general.

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Slow base movement, slow kill times, slow spawning weapons,  and having to be really close for your BR to be effective all made Halo 3 slower than Halo 5.

 

First of all: I'm not even saying Halo 3 is more competitive than Halo 5, but it's definitely faster paced.

Halo 5 also has slow base movement and slow spawning weapons, but sprint and thruster alone make it SO much slower. Remove these two things and I would agree with you.

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First of all: I'm not even saying Halo 3 is more competitive than Halo 5, but it's definitely faster paced.

Halo 5 also has slow base movement and slow spawning weapons, but sprint and thruster alone make it SO much slower. Remove these two things and I would agree with you.

 

Yeah Halo 5 has thrusters and sprint which are both pure defensive abilities. In Halo 3 you die when you position yourself in a bad spot but in Halo 5 you can get away most of the time.

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Slow base movement, slow kill times, slow spawning weapons,  and having to be really close for your BR to be effective all made Halo 3 slower than Halo 5. Besides Slayer on Guardian, which Halo 3 launch map was faster paced than any Halo 5 slayer map? 

Okay, why are mentioning slayer on guardian as a fast paced slayer map? That was the slowest when it was played.

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lolwut?

 

Bigshit and bigshit V2 were at least twice the size of Heretic...

I was referring to the release maps for H3 that were used for competitive play. As far as Truth, it was definitely bigger than Midship, but I wouldn't say twice as big, and Heretic was meant to be close to a direct remake of Midship, a popular 2v2 map from H2, while Truth was supposed to take inspiration from Midship, while also being bigger for 4v4 play and account for the abilities in H5. Although, Truth does feel bigger than it needed to be, even when you do account for sprint/thruster.

 

EDIT: Forgot about Guardian. Although I don't know the exact amount of floor space, I'd imagine that it is smaller than most of the H5 beta maps

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The fact is, there is no core gameplay fundamental that Halo 1, 2 and 3 has that Halo 5 doesn't also have. 

The core is fundamentally changed by the additions in halo 5 that takes halo from being the unique shooter it once was, and throws it in the mix of all generic shooters that are popping up these days. 

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Giving people who sit somewhere (yeah it is easier to scope when you camp) a reduced spread is pretty bad im my opinion. Your spread should not be effected at all by scoping.

Sorry im not trying to be funny here in any way just trying to understand your point. Surly the whole point of scoping in is to give you a better shot/accuracy and fundamentally a whole new reason and reward to scope in? Remembering how big the maps are in Halo 5 aswell surly this would work better with the whole meta of the game?

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I get equipment isn't great for competitive play, but it's still a map pick up, which essentially makes them shitty power weapons. That's leagues better than any spartan ability. No one is forcing you to use radar jammer and flare, it's like picking up a spiker. Doesn't really take away from the game

The random 4-melee beatdown battles you get when someone has a regen, the randomness of a flare and the OP drainer do take away from the game IMO.

 

 

 

Base player speed from what we played in the beta doesn't seem any different from Halo 3, only its on huge maps. Not to mention excessive bullet magnetism making things like strafing much less effective.

Yes but sprint and longer range BR's make getting into action a lot quickly. 

 

 

 

Weaker weapon sandbox is a fair point. Too many maulers....sure, whatever. Not a huge deal but okay.

It was just as bad as almost everyone using the Boltshot in Halo 4.

 

 

 

Spawning, I guess guess changes on what you prefer. Some people prefer Halo 1's ultra predictability, just depends really. I don't think many people had issue with H3's spawns.

 In Halo CE a team can really be punished by beinng spawn killed, however the they can give their team mates a random spawn to prevent this. In Halo 3, on maps like The Pit or Narrows spawn killing is so simple and there is nothing the other team can do to prevent it from happening. 

.

 

 

Weak powerups, sure. But we haven't even seen Halo 5 powerups so its not fair to say that this goes in favor towards Halo 5.

You're right.

 

 

Smaller individual skill gap? This is based on so many other factors, seems like a blanket statement to me. I don't think this at all personally.. I think aiming and using the BR in H3 is one of the most difficult things to do in any Halo game (ty grid aiming lol)

I'm saying, in Halo 5 you have so many tools and so many different was to outplay an enemy and every way you can out play a guy in H3 you can also do in H5. 

 

 

BR spread. Sure.

IMO the H5 BR is the best one we've ever had. 

 

 

Hit detection. This too. 343 has got some solid netcode with H4/H5.

 

 

Poor maps? You named 3, but I'd say Halo 3 had the best disc maps of any Halo game so far. Pit, Construct, Guardian, Narrows.. High Ground if youre into that sort of thing lol.

I'm not saying those are the only bad Halo 3 maps, just that Halo 3's worst maps are on a whole new level of bad.

 

 

The art style, audio engineering, and map design alone is enough to turn me off Halo 5

I can see where your coming from, I really hate all this too. 

 

 

I don't think H5 is anywhere NEAR Halo 3 really. While you've got fewer offenders under your Halo 5 con list, I think the severity of Halo 5's flaws overshadow anything Halo 3 did wrong. 

To each their own I guess.

 

@@MultiLockOn

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Okay, why are mentioning slayer on guardian as a fast paced slayer map? That was the slowest when it was played.

That was fairly tempting to point out but I just figured it wasn't worth it

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First of all: I'm not even saying Halo 3 is more competitive than Halo 5, but it's definitely faster paced.

Halo 5 also has slow base movement and slow spawning weapons, but sprint and thruster alone make it SO much slower. Remove these two things and I would agree with you.

Fair enough, I guess I just didn't see thruster and sprint slowing the game to the extent that you did. 

 

Yeah Halo 5 has thrusters and sprint which are both pure defensive abilities. In Halo 3 you die when you position yourself in a bad spot but in Halo 5 you can get away most of the time.

"Most" of the time? Halo 3 has strongsiding which was a pure defensive ability. Neither Strongsiding or sprint/thrusting allowed players to avoid death "most" of the time. "Some" of the time? Sure but not "Most". In Halo 5 you die when you position your self in a bad spot as well. If you manage to thrust away and live than I guess in the context of the game you're in you weren't in a "bad spot". 

 

Okay, why are mentioning slayer on guardian as a fast paced slayer map? That was the slowest when it was played.

At the highest level of play I guess. But yeah sure, proves my point even more. 

The core is fundamentally changed by the additions in halo 5 that takes halo from being the unique shooter it once was, and throws it in the mix of all generic shooters that are popping up these days. 

What  other games today play like Halo 5? In what other game is beating a guy based more on out-strafing than out shooting him? In what other game do you control power weapons and control the maps like in Halo? 

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Even if for nothing else, I still can't stand 343 because now we have to have shitty arguments over whether or not FREAKING ADS is good for halo. . .

 

If you told me that this is where the series was headed in the weeks before MCC launched, I would have laughed in your face.

 

How does nobody else just hate the principle of everything 343 is doing?...

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Even if for nothing else, I still can't stand 343 because now we have to have shitty arguments over whether or not FREAKING ADS is good for halo. . .

 

I don't think anybody thinks it's good for Halo.

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I asked the question on HaloForum and I'll ask it again here because the answers are intriguing.

 

Would you still buy/play the game regardless if you liked it or not if there where life changes amount of money at stake in HCS? Say a $1 Million event just like cod champs. The COD scene absolutely hated ghosts but still played it regardless...

I will buy Halo 5 regardless of how much money is put up for tournaments. I will buy every Halo because I got hooked back in 2002 when I bought an xbox and Halo CE.

 

The amount that I play the game after purchase depends on the game having a functioning ranking system.

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My main concern with smart scope (ads) is the time to scope in. With the added animation of bringing your weapon up it felt slower to me. Has anyone compared it to previous games? If it takes the same number of frames (comparatively, different frame rates and such) I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

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Everyone just spits this one out with any reasoning. Other than a slightly more obstructed view, what is the issue with Smart Scope? Someone enlighten me because I think it was extremely well executed.

Smart scope should not reduce spread . . . but it does.  That's my issue.  It's not a huge, gamebreaking deal yet, but just like sprint, my fear is that the smart scope capability will be expanded in the future.  The other issue is that it reduces visibility in the shooting area that traditional zoom did not.  I absolutely cannot stand the ADS look.  Won't prevent me from buying H5 or [likely] enjoying it, but I really, really, really, really hate how it looks.  Please, oh please Sal1ent, give me the option of the traditional-looking zoom.  Please.

 

Please.

 

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!

 

Anyway . . . if the problem with the autos was that they were not great starting weapons (and they weren't), then the solution is to either buff the weapon, change the map geometry, or both . . . not to give a weapon in the short-to-medium range niche the capability of reaching across the map via smart scope.

 

The reason for this is simple:  as more weapons can be used in more situations, there is less and less of a differential between them.  Why pick up one over the other?  Tons of weapons available . . . but they all end up being simple reskins of each other with minor performance tweaks (or, in H3's case, you end up with a bunch that are the same because they are equally as useless).  This is confusing to new players and actually reduces the total amount of variety in the sandbox.  Think about a new player coming to H4.  You have the BR, DMR, LR, and CC for precision weapons with very little difference between them.  You have the SR, AR, and Suppressor for autos.  Again, basically the same weapon.  The hated boltshot was at least functionally different - though it was inappropriate to have been a loadout weapon.  Anyway, if you're a new player, how the hell do you choose between them?  It unnecessarily takes away from the accessibility of the game in a manner that involves little actual playing skill*.

 

Nor can weapon buffs completely solve the problem.  At some point, if you continue buffing, the weapons are all equally as useful.  While that has the benefit that you are capable of defending yourself regardless of the weapon you have, it has the drawback that you are capable of defending yourself regardless of the weapon you have.  So why pick up a different one?  Except at the highest levels of play, it really won't matter what you have.  Sandbox variety evaporates along with a portion of the replayability.

 

What I wish is that the starting weapons would be tied to the map.  Consider Assembly in H3:  auto starts worked on that map because the geometry forces short-range encounters.  Auto starts on the Pit, on the other hand, can never be made to work properly unless the ARs are just as powerful as the BRs in a large range overlap.  So why try to make auto starts work on the Pit?  All it does is hurt the sandbox by giving a negligible boost to the fun of playing the Pit with a bunch of ARs . . . which, quite Frankie, isn't saying a whole lot.

 

In order to ensure variety in the type of play while minimizing frustration, I would like to see H5 have certain maps with auto starts (and only auto starts) because the geometry is suited to auto starts.  Same with BRs.  Start folks with BRs on maps that are suited to BRs.  Get rid of any spread benefit to smart scope (don't open the door to it becoming a standard ADS) because - if the starting weapons are matched to the map geometry - those benefits are no longer necessary.

 

Is it harder to do this than slap a scope on an AR and give it the ability to magically reduce spread?  Sure.  It's harder.  But the value of taking the harder route is (in my opinion) a lot greater than the smart scope route.

 

More enjoyable, too.

 

*P.S.  The only negative comment I've ever heard from someone (and I heard it from three separate people) when I told them I prefer Halo was that "How can you play that?  Halo has too many weapons.  Too confusing."

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