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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Not to me it isn't.

That's what I'm saying though, that doesn't matter when we ask "are there incentives to move on hang 'em high."

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That's what I'm saying though, that doesn't matter when we ask "are there incentives to move on hang 'em high."

And whenever I play it, the answer is no. What's the point in moving to highly exposed power weapons when you already have the most powerful weapon in the game anyway? That's the question I always ask myself when playing Hang 'em High and the answer is always "I'm not gonna bother". Apparently that's what everyone else thinks as well because every game is just a standoff. Hang 'em High sucks period.

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It's funny how a game of Halo CE with 4 players on maps as large as hang 'em plays faster than a game of halo 3 with twice as many players on maps as small as Narrows. Ever wonder why? Because there is a greater incentive to move around the map.

 

Your personal experience alone is irrelevant when determining whether or not map movement is viable in a halo game, I'm sorry. It's just how it is.

Not sure those make the point you were trying to make.  With very few exceptions, in the videos you posted, once a player was either at a base or at the huts, they tended to stay there until they got in trouble or died (which corresponds to my game experience as well).  Power weapons and powerups were left unclaimed for significant periods . . . and when they were claimed, it was often by knocking them with nades specifically so the players didn't have to move as much.

 

Yes, CE plays fast - but that's more due to the easy spawn kills, nuclear nades, and a cross-mapping 3-shot pistol.

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What's the point in moving to highly exposed power weapons when you already have the most powerful weapon in the game anyway?

You should ask the people in the videos I cited, but I'm sure they would say something along the lines of "rockets and snipe are stronger than the pistol, and having 3x shields or invisibility is a major advantage. Not to mention positioning for spawn trapping purposes."

 

Again, your personal experience is irrelevant here. I'm sorry.

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Yes, CE plays fast - but that's more due to the easy spawn kills, nuclear nades, and a cross-mapping 3-shot pistol.

Yeah, those things have a lot to do with halo CE's pace. Being strong certainly dictates the speed of a halo game.

 

The videos I posted are sufficient to disprove the claim that "nobody ever moves on hang em." There are several more as well, check out jeenyus' youtube channel or mcdick's for plenty more.

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You should ask the people in the videos I cited, but I'm sure they would say something along the lines of "rockets and snipe are stronger than the pistol, and having 3x shields or invisibility is a major advantage. Not to mention positioning for spawn trapping purposes."

 

Again, your personal experience is irrelevant here. I'm sorry.

Power ups are maybe worth getting. Rockets are absolutely not worth picking up on HeH because you will be shooting people from long range 90% of the time. Sniper isn't worth going for either because it's too exposed and because it's too easy to pick off the sniper guy on that map as there aren't many lines of sight you can try and use to conceal yourself.

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Power ups are maybe worth getting. Rockets are absolutely not worth picking up on HeH because you will be shooting people from long range 90% of the time. Sniper isn't worth going for either because it's too exposed and because it's too easy to pick off the sniper guy on that map as there aren't many lines of sight you can try and use to conceal yourself.

It's great that that's your personal experience with the map, but again, your personal experience isn't important when asking whether or not the map emulates your own experience for everyone all the time. Check out those videos I posted and learn some new stuff about hang em high, or search mcdick's and jeenyus' channels on YouTube for much more.

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It's great that that's your personal experience with the map, but again, your personal experience isn't important when asking whether or not the map emulates your own experience for everyone all the time. Check out those videos I posted and learn some new stuff about hang em high, or search mcdick's and jeenyus' channels on YouTube for much more.

My personal experience is all that matters when it comes to enjoying playing on the map though.

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My personal experience is all that matters when it comes to enjoying playing on the map though.

But not when asking whether or not the map plays slow by design, and that's what really matters in the grand scheme of things.

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Random opinions based on reading last page

 

- H5 def needs faster timers, at least on the asymmetric maps. High level play can get pretty campy. Or at least stagger the timers so there is a weapon every minute or something.

 

- I like the current rank names. They provide a clear representation of the skill distribution, even to outsiders. I wouldn't want it cluttered with random #lore names just to spice things up. Just thinking of it reminds me of CSGOs ranking system which is convoluted imo.

 

- ranks definitely need better icons, reach's looked pretty cool. Hell I tried my heart out for onyx because it looked and sounded so cool. In H5 it was just a black shape. Hope they were placeholders.

Rank images are confirmed placeholders.

 

As for weapon timers, Pegasus had weapons spawning on the following intervals.

 

Start: Rockets + Snipe

1 Min: None

2 min: Snipe

3 Min: Rockets

4: Snipe

5: None

6: Rocks + Snipe

 

And repeat. This worked pretty well IMO

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- I like the current rank names. They provide a clear representation of the skill distribution, even to outsiders. I wouldn't want it cluttered with random #lore names just to spice things up. Just thinking of it reminds me of CSGOs ranking system which is convoluted imo.

 

- ranks definitely need better icons, reach's looked pretty cool. Hell I tried my heart out for onyx because it looked and sounded so cool. In H5 it was just a black shape. Hope they were placeholders.

I think what one guy meant earlier was that there shouldnt be a confusion between who is a pro gamer and who is pro rank on halo 5

 

Like you can be a 50 but that doesnt make you a pro, you got it.

 

I like the way it is except the semi pro/pro, id rather the top two be something like Master and Grandmaster.

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Take this counter-example; Imagine giving the CE pistol a 3x zoom without changing anything else about the game. People would still be moving around the map due to power items spawning so frequently and because the weapon's average and perfect kill time are so far apart. When you talk about a DMR being placed into Halo CE with it's long kill time and identical average/perfect kill times, you're changing many more variables than just the weapon's range. 

 

It sounds like your gripes are more with a utility weapon's zoom than its range. The CE pistol is most definitely a long ranged weapon; I can 3sk people from top red to top blue consistently on Hang 'em. No other utility weapon in the Halo series can do that. Still though, range does not negatively impact map movement in that game because there are many incentives to move. The DMR's range alone does not do this either, but rather the equality of the weapon's minnimum and average kill time, in addition to the lack of incentive to move around the map. 

 

I don't disagree, but the DMR and all weapons in H5 are easy as hell to use. The pistol is probably the hardest to use, but has less range, which means it would take the most skill to use. If you were to add the 3x zoom to CE, then there is no doubt that it would still make shots easier though. People who don't understand how to play the game will be stomped more so than they already are. As Logfish said, people don't move on HeH, but I really only run into that in 4v4 with really bad players. I'm not great, but I can move around.

 

Adding incentives to move will get people to attempt to move. I won't argue that. I always try to make a push when weapons/powerups are spawning, but making the player able to shoot farther easier will make the game more standoffish. If there were no BRs in H2 and everyone had SMGs, then Lockout Slayer wouldn't have such standoffish battles between the two towers. It's the same principal. People would have to push strategically in order to get to their opponents.

 

You being able to cross map people on HeH isn't as easy for the less skilled players as it is for many people on here. But I would prefer it stay that way because that means they would have to work at being able to aim consistently at that distance rather than being able to just zoom in closer. That's my gripe with Long Ranged weapons that aren't power weapons. That's the way I see it anyways. If you see it differently, I'm not understanding your stance.

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No one ever moves anywhere on Hang 'em High.

 

With all those random spawns, the options for cover, sniping, angles and strat jumps... Sure... No one takes advantage of those...

 

/s

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I see the only way of killing people in that game is constantly grouping up in pairs of 2 & 3 to kill people.  Other then that they're going to get away every single time, sprint being in the game is bad enough but then makes thruster & clamber bad game mechanics.  If sprint wasn't in the game then I guess I wouldn't care about thruster and clamber being there but with sprint being there enables all the other player functions to become passive an annoying.

This was basically my experience. I have an aggressive play style were I intentionally split you away from your team and force you into a 1 on 1 battle, this is so useless in Halo 5. I would average like 22 kills a game, but I would die 20 times. Every action you take as an individual is pointless. I feel almost like you get punished for flanking or attempting to pinch someone because they just run away back to their team. Holding a tower down on one of the midships was pointless, you could put shots into people but then they would be back in cover instantly anyway. We just started to sprint around the map as a group of 4 and melt everyone, because realistically there wasn't a better strategy. When I matched the 343 pro team they did the same thing too. They just held forward and always pushed on us, baiting and switching when ever someone was weak. Team shooting is a necessity, not a skill. 

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The videos I posted are sufficient to disprove the claim that "nobody ever moves on hang em." There are several more as well, check out jeenyus' youtube channel or mcdick's for plenty more.

Yes, people do move.  But with that in mind, people didn't move much (or any) more in CE than they did in H5.  Overall, in fact, I bet they moved more in H5.  Hang 'Em High wasn't the best example for CE anyway.  Prisoner can be very static if you're trying to control where the enemy spawns, and the rockets / invis make for great bait.  Wizard and Derelict are both spawn killer's dreams (moving back and forth on Wizard's platforms or Derelict's catwalks to get the angle on the enemies spawning against the lower level walls doesn't really count as "map flow").  Longest is another easy map to control spawns that almost always leads to stand-off type battles in Slayer (and in CTF if the players play like it's slayer).  Boarding Action is just hide-and-seek, with the hiders having the advantage, and Battle Creek is about the rooftops.  There's no reason to leave them unless you die or run out of ammo.

 

The CE maps that did have natural map flow were Chill Out, Damnation (to a certain extent), and Rat Race.  What all of these share is geometry - there's no single position that can see any significant part of the map.  Chill Out has all of the small spaces.  Damnation has bigger spaces, but it's still broken up (though it is more static than Chill Out due to the room size), and Rat Race is a maze.

 

H2 follows in this tradition.  Maze maps (Turf, Elongation) have lots of natural movement.  Maps with power positions that overlook spawning areas (Ivory Tower, Foundation, Zanzibar, Warlock, Ascension, Tombstone, etc.) have less.  H2 also had hybrid maps - ones with power positions that could not see many spawn locations and / or were at least somewhat vulnerable (Lockout, Sanctuary, Midship).  H3 had more of the hybrid variety.

 

In my opinion, the combination of map geometry / scale and spawn system have almost total control over whether a map plays like a river or like a lake for slayer (objectives are different, as they have forced flow).  If the enemy can be forced to spawn in vulnerable locations from a power position, the map will play statically regardless of the objects on the map.  If the enemy spawns cannot be observed for the most part or are out of the effective range of the power position (even if you know approximately where they are spawning), the map will have more flow.

 

Maps in Halo have seemed to transition from the CE extremes of either octagon or Wolfenstein to hybrid varieties.  The hybrid maps will have periods of static play (which will grow more and more static in general as the skill differential between the teams grows) than the maze maps, regardless of what objects you put on the map.  I think some people vastly overestimate the influence of on-map objects with respect to flow.

 

The only real way to get more flow out of H5 (if that is, indeed, what is desired) is to either change the geometry of the maps or change the relationship between movement and kill times such that you have to get close to people to kill them.  Both effectively reduce the power of the individual.  For the former, the power positions must be made more vulnerable and / or less powerful so easy kills are less obtainable.  For the latter, the starting weapons need to be nerfed (SMG starts, anyone?) or more movement options provided.  Is that not what thruster does?  And if you force people to get close, is not teamshotting the obvious (and only) effective tactic?  Nothing else will have a significant effect.

 

Making individuals more powerful means they will be more capable of staying put in a power position.  Making individuals less powerful reduces the effective killing range, which in turn reduces the amount of map a power position can reasonably cover and forces more movement to achieve kills.  It also shifts the strategy from individual shooting to team shooting.

 

In terms of play, I prefer the hybrid-type maps and strong individuals at spawn, which means there isn't always movement.  Mazes can be annoying and slow; spawn-killing maps are no fun if you're the one being spawn killed and not very challenging if you're the one doing the killing.  I like having a couple of positions on the map where - unless you die or run out of ammo - there's no real reason to move.  Let someone on your team control the power position; let someone else make the run for the rockets while being covered.  Otherwise, the positioning meta is removed from the game and gunplay dominates too much for my taste.  Whether my preferences are inherently more or less "competitive", I cannot say.  I can only say that what I like.

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The most important thing that would help Halo 5 would be to increase the BR spread. The first time I fired it, it felt like a single shot. Definitely one, if not the most over powered weapons in all the Halo games.

 

I could consistently 4 shot people from across the map and it led to extreme campiness. It made high ground feel like a non advantage and made the power weapons not as important. The BR in the Halo 5 beta truly felt like a power weapon and I can't believe I'm saying that.

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The most important thing that would help Halo 5 would be to increase the BR spread. The first time I fired it, it felt like a single shot. Definitely one, if not the most over powered weapons in all the Halo games.

 

I could consistently 4 shot people from across the map and it led to extreme campiness. It made high ground feel like a non advantage and made the power weapons not as important. The BR in the Halo 5 beta truly felt like a power weapon and I can't believe I'm saying that.

Just stahp. You want more spread? That adds randomness, not skill. Give it less bullet magnetism. And rockets/sniper/sword/smg/hydra were all better in their effective ranges. 

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Just stahp. You want more spread? That adds randomness, not skill. Give it less bullet magnetism. And rockets/sniper/sword/smg/hydra were all better in their effective ranges.

Basically, make it more like the H2 BR. Having a BR that fires like a DMR isn't good for gameplay. You can have static spread that isn't random. The BR in Halo 5 outpowers everything rather than making the play field even like in H2.

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Basically, make it more like the H2 BR. Having a BR that fires like a DMR isn't good for gameplay. You can have static spread that isn't random. The BR in Halo 5 outpowers everything rather than making the play field even like in H2.

H2 BR had virtually no spread. It had a slower ROF, so the burst was elongated, but since it was hitscan, 1 bullet counted for three if your reticle was red. 

 

Incidentally, have you played CE? Had a perfectly accurate Magnum that was fast killing, and map movement was still important - the power weapons were also powerful as well. With H2 & H3, you had a weak utility rifle, and as a result, weak power weapons.

 

Edit: And the only weapons BR "outpowers" are automatics at range (makes sense) and Magnum (recoil, harder to use). Unless you're referring to Breakout which is more like SWAT than normal halo.

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What about the Halo 1 or 2 sniper looks impractical? It looks sort of like a Beretta 50 cal with a fancy sci-fi scope. H2A campaign sniper looks perfect IMHO and I could completely imagine it being manufactured.

It's absolutely impractical. You literally need a HUD to use it. What if you don't have a helmet or it gets blown off? Johnson and either of the Keyes can't use that sniper in the field and you can't put your eye up to the thing because it has no legitimate scope. The new sniper design makes sense because it actually has a scope as well as the fancy screen. Plus the old scope is a 2D display, so it would be like putting your eye up to a phone screen. So much for incognito because you'll have this bright sniper screen that if you turn off, you have no scope on your sniper.

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I'm not sure if this was posted but I was scouring the interwebs and came across this new Gamesradar article on Halo 5.

 

"To its credit, 343 Industries isn't just listening – it’s willing to change the fundamental shape of the maps to address the concerns of its fanbase. “One thing we learned from the beta is that some areas have too many entry points,” says Holmes. “This was most keenly felt in objectives games in Empire – there were so many ways to get in and out of the bases that it was impossible to properly guard them all. So we made the decision to close some of these points off, so the game feels more deliberate and structured.” 

 

Link: http://www.gamesradar.com/how-343s-changing-halo-5-after-beta/ 

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While I do want to keep the Magnum as a difficult weapon to use, I think it was a little too punishing in the beta and could do with a slightly longer red reticle range. It doesn't have enough power behind it to make up for how easy the BR and DMR were to use. A less realistic option would be to make the BR and DMR much more difficult to use.

 

Spawn us with a tuned Magnum, and put 1 or 2 of each scoped gun on the maps.

 

If the Magnum is good at long range, then it would become the most versatile weapon since up close, you can spam shoot people a lot faster than other precision weapons can, and even at range, you can spam and risk getting the kill or at least set a teammate up for a quick finish. The way I see it, the Magnum shouldn't be as useful when attempting to crossmap as then you don't have a reason to bring the battles closer to your enemies, risk pushes, grab other weapons, etc. 

 

I understand that it seems backwards to spawn with a headshot capable weapon that's not the most effective at the top range, that everyone wants a CE-esque pistol to return (me included), but if we did that, we might as well scrap all other precision weapons now because there wouldn't ever be a point in using them. However, we know that's just not going to happen, so...

 

The way I see things, the Magnum should be a step down from other precision weapons on the map just because you had to go and get them, which is a fundamental factor of Arena shooters. As of now, I believe it has the highest potential time to kill because of how high the RoF gets, just it's a lot more subject to randomness. Taking it to a 4sk would increase that potential even further, meaning if it has the same RRR as the BR or the DMR (I don't think the DMR is right since it's supposed to have a stronger scope) then it would promote spamming it at range and result in a lot of frustrating deaths.

 

However, just taking the damage up means bringing it in line with how powerful the AR is up close, which was a massive problem during the beta, since there has been all that Smart Scope jazz and taking into consideration how strong it is. Just now, skilled people stand a much better chance at fighting back, and precision (Magnum) will overcome randomness (AR users) most of the time as long as they don't miss.

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It's absolutely impractical. You literally need a HUD to use it. What if you don't have a helmet or it gets blown off? Johnson and either of the Keyes can't use that sniper in the field and you can't put your eye up to the thing because it has no legitimate scope. The new sniper design makes sense because it actually has a scope as well as the fancy screen. Plus the old scope is a 2D display, so it would be like putting your eye up to a phone screen. So much for incognito because you'll have this bright sniper screen that if you turn off, you have no scope on your sniper.

 

 

Johnsons GT is xxMLGx360xNoScopexx for a reason

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If the Magnum is good at long range, then it would become the most versatile weapon since up close, you can spam shoot people a lot faster than other precision weapons can, and even at range, you can spam and risk getting the kill or at least set a teammate up for a quick finish. The way I see it, the Magnum shouldn't be as useful when attempting to crossmap as then you don't have a reason to bring the battles closer to your enemies, risk pushes, grab other weapons, etc. 

 

I understand that it seems backwards to spawn with a headshot capable weapon that's not the most effective at the top range, that everyone wants a CE-esque pistol to return (me included), but if we did that, we might as well scrap all other precision weapons now because there wouldn't ever be a point in using them. However, we know that's just not going to happen, so...

 

The way I see things, the Magnum should be a step down from other precision weapons on the map just because you had to go and get them, which is a fundamental factor of Arena shooters. As of now, I believe it has the highest potential time to kill because of how high the RoF gets, just it's a lot more subject to randomness. Taking it to a 4sk would increase that potential even further, meaning if it has the same RRR as the BR or the DMR (I don't think the DMR is right since it's supposed to have a stronger scope) then it would promote spamming it at range and result in a lot of frustrating deaths.

 

However, just taking the damage up means bringing it in line with how powerful the AR is up close, which was a massive problem during the beta, since there has been all that Smart Scope jazz and taking into consideration how strong it is. Just now, skilled people stand a much better chance at fighting back, and precision (Magnum) will overcome randomness (AR users) most of the time as long as they don't miss.

Certainly not enough of a RRR boost to make it a cross-map machine, just something to make it a little more useful than it is now. The Magnum was already the most powerful weapon in the beta, it was just too difficult to use compared to anything else for such a negligible increase in damage. There wasn't much reason I would chance missing 2 or 3 shots with the Magnum when I could spray my AR or get consistent 4s and 5s with the BR.

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