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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I would say MCC isn't the best comparison to "Classic Halo is back". From the ads playing I didn't know if things like Mulitplayer was included. If I didn't get it on launch day and then heard about how broken it was I would have avoided it. 

 

If you made a new Halo game with classic MP, brand new campaign with the Chief, and a number on it you'll probably get better sales numbers compared to CEA and MCC

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I would say MCC isn't the best comparison to "Classic Halo is back". From the ads playing I didn't know if things like Mulitplayer was included. If I didn't get it on launch day and then heard about how broken it was I would have avoided it. 

 

If you made a new Halo game with classic MP, brand new campaign with the Chief, and a number on it you'll probably get better sales numbers compared to CEA and MCC

Yeah, true, good point.

 

Idk, it's a toss up. I think if done right (pricing model, end-game longevity w/ ranks, customization, unlocks, user run cosmetic market, etc) a "classic" Halo MP stand-alone w/ cross platform play on PC/X1 could be huge.

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Yeah, true, good point.

 

Idk, it's a toss up. I think if done right (pricing model, end-game longevity w/ ranks, customization, unlocks, user run cosmetic market, etc) a "classic" Halo MP stand-alone w/ cross platform play on PC/X1 could be huge.

Slap on an improved forge with Project Spark-like features and improved theater/spectator and it would be fantastic

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Slap on an improved forge with Project Spark-like features and improved theater/spectator and it would be fantastic

AND 

 

-Custom game browser on dedis

 

-(to add on to your forge idea) Standalone Forge program thats free to download and create on PC for people who just want to create and not even get the game 

 

-Improved fileshare thats built into the games UI, like a store front. 

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I really like the option of having no sprint at all and it is something that I wanted in Halo 4. But the issue I see is that the maps will be designed for sprint not for non-sprint gameplay, so that may make the maps seem bigger and larger than they actually are. And it may result in smaller made community maps based off of forge pallets, but either way I think they will listen to the community a lot more this time around and we just need to be vocal about our opinions and as a  community respect each others opinions! :D 

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Anyone else think making the BR/DMR 3 and 4 shot respectively would be a good improvement for H5? It something that if it was to happen would actually catch my eye and I might consider buying it.

 

I've said this elsewhere here, but the faster kill time would go a long way to forcing fights vs the enemy running away from them. It would still allow for escapes, but would greatly lower the window that the other player would have to make that decision and fewer people would be able to thrust and sprint away. It would also balance out the AR and SMG some.

 

Just thought I'd ask for some other opinions but didn't feel like making another thread for it.

 

Edit: and not necessarily 3 shots at its current rate of fire. Something to drop it to like a .7-.9 second kill.

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But where is Cursed Lemon the guy who argued with me and everyone on why it is still trash even with the changes?

 

I don't recall arguing with anyone about this topic.

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I hope these could be toggled individually. I would like to test out rules without ground pound but keep thrusters, etc.

I think ground pound is the best addition to the game. Only 1 in every 320 kills was a ground pound kill so it isn't over powered and I believe it works well because it's not overly difficult you use but also not overly simple either. 

 

But the best aspect of the ground pound in the beta was the increased mobility that it allowed. Plenty of jumps were only possible to make if you used the ground pound to boost up a couple of inches allowing yourself to clamber up. 

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I don't recall arguing with anyone about this topic.

 

Maybe not arguing but definitely stating your opinion on the topic. Guess i could have worded better.

 

Anyway's what if they removed sprint entirely. Made maps designed around not having sprint and then added a power up to forge that enables you to run faster would that be a better option.

 

Instead of having maps designed around having sprint. 

 

problem solved gg

 

343i wants sprint i just gave them sprint. While at the same time making everyone happy.

I'm fucking Halo's Einstein. 

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Question: When did we become so concerned with "alienating ourselves" to the point that we want to just play vanilla? What is the point for us to do that? 

 

I would be thrilled if a Halo title came out of the box vanilla competitive and 100% perfect, but I do not think that has EVER happened.  I think @@Aphex Twin mentioned it earlier in this thread - every game we have stripped down and geared for competitive play.  Whether it be no radars, no dual wielding, no equipment in Halo 3, No Bloom No Sprint in Reach etc. We have always "alienated" ourselves technically in one way or another. 

 

 

Even during the competitive height in Halo 3, we were playing an "alienated" experience compared to the rest of the population, but did it even matter? I feel like we are giving "alienation" way more power than it honestly would hold if we did something as simple as make it so your spartan cannot sprint. Because we turned off equipment like the "Power Drainer" and "Bubble Shield" (which were new features in Halo that Bungie was pushing) - did it make people want to compete or watch any less? Did not look like it judging by the popularity of the game, events selling out, huge sponsors on board for teams and I mean shit T2 was on a damn Dr. Pepper bottle.

 

 I am fairly confident that casual players would NOT be bothered by a toggle be utilized to the point of not watching, and most probably wouldn't even notice.

 

 

 

I think alienation has to be taken to extreme levels before it has an impact on a game. If we played Halo 5 with no smart scope, no sprint, no clamber, no thruster, no ground pound, on all forge maps, THEN we would be alienating ourselves to the point that it is driving players away from watching. 

 

 

I dont think using the sprint toggle would alienate the community and it would provide a superior competitive game obviously. The only thing that I can see going wrong is 343 refusing to use it, in order to promote their default game, and that IS going to 100% happen at first if the toggle is the last stop in the no sprint discussion.  We still need the default settings to be no sprint, or we are just back to Halo Reach like others have mentioned. 

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Maybe not arguing but definitely stating your opinion on the topic. Guess i could have worded better.

 

Anyway's what if they removed sprint entirely. Made maps designed around not having sprint and then added a power up to forge that enables you to run faster would that be a better option.

 

Instead of having maps designed around having sprint. 

 

problem solved gg

 

343i wants sprint i just gave them sprint. While at the same time making everyone happy.

I'm fucking Halo's Einstein. 

That is exactly what I put in the survey for the sprint question. Not having it as a spartan ability isn't possible for them though.

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That is exactly what I put in the survey for the sprint question. Not having it as a spartan ability isn't possible for them though.

 

Keep it as a spartan ability but have the option to toggle it on and off like they are doing now. Just make the 4v4 maps designed around not having sprint. Instead of it designed around having sprint.  

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Good thing because this was the only reason for 343 to add the toggle. If you think HCS will be no sprint then you are lost.

 

I see, well...

 

 

I GIVE ZERO FUCKS ABOUT HCS WHEN IT COMES TO ENJOYING HALO

 

(I mean no offense to HCS)

 

 

Here boy! You want some rep? Go get it boy!

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@@Saucey Will it even be possible to play without Sprint on Halo 5 maps? That's my real question, because the most alienating factor isn't No Sprint but Forged Maps only in my opinion.

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@@Saucey Will it even be possible to play without Sprint on Halo 5 maps? That's my real question, because the most alienating factor isn't No Sprint but only Forged Maps in my opinion.

 

Yes.  I played a few matches without sprinting, as well as watched Ninja play an entire day or two refusing to sprint on Halo 5.  Was not bad at all, even if the base speed was upped a bit that would work as well. 

 

I agree too, an over abundance of Forge maps = terrible. 

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I see, well...

 

 

I GIVE ZERO FUCKS ABOUT HCS WHEN IT COMES TO ENJOYING HALO

 

(I mean no offense to HCS)

 

 

Here boy! You want some rep? Go get it boy!

 

 

You are a funny one: Why would there be a no sprint playlist if not the HCS playlist. See what I am trying to say?

Sure it is about enjoying the game but beeing limited to custom games all the time to enjoy the game kinda sucks.

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The maps are sized for players to be moving at sprinting speed.

 

So if we increase player movement settings so that everyone is traveling at sprint speed, the map sizes will be okay, right?

 

The developer map design may call for forged maps to be used, but the map size shouldn't be a concern at this point.

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You are a funny one: Why would there be a no sprint playlist if not the HCS playlist. See what I am trying to say?

Sure it is about enjoying the game but beeing limited to custom games all the time to enjoy the game kinda sucks.

This was essentially Halo 2 multiplayer in a nutshell.

 

With pro players "working" for 343, I'm certain there will be a competitive playlist with whatever rules the community decides, which will probably involve no sprint, I hope. The real question is whether it'll flourish like the H3 MLG playlist or drown in mediocrity like H4's competitive playlist.

 

I never played the beta, but it's odd to me that people keep pointing out map size and down scaling. Are the maps awkwardly large? We've tested upped base speed in lieu of sprint on 2 games with sprint and both times is worked just fine.

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The maps are sized for players to be moving at sprinting speed.

 

So if we increase player movement settings so that everyone is traveling at sprint speed, the map sizes will be okay, right?

 

The developer map design may call for forged maps to be used, but the map size shouldn't be a concern at this point.

 

i dont wanna be sonic the hedgehog while playing 4v4 

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Yes.  I played a few matches without sprinting, as well as watched Ninja play an entire day or two refusing to sprint on Halo 5.  Was not bad at all, even if the base speed was upped a bit that would work as well.

 

Well than 343i must be smarter than us or something.

 

 

From Needed 5 for Halo 5:

 

 

Sprint completely destroys the scale of the game. This is the real, underlying problem with sprint. Scale refers to the dimentions of the map, in relation to the dimentions and abilities of a Spartan. Halo gameplay has been consistent in the past regardless of weapons, kill times, maps, gametypes, grenades or perks, because the scale was done right.

Geometry proximity is another important point:

Areas and geometry need to be close to each other to provide interesting, strategic an unique combat tactics using verticality. The further areas get from each other the less verticality and synergistic use there is between them. Snipe tower on Lockout is a perfect example of close areas and geometry creating interesting, strategic and unique combat opportunities. However when sprint is added the tower becomes "too small". So you enlarge the tower but now the exact properties that made it good are lost, it becomes too horizontal and has too much distance between each area for it to work well in combat.

 

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i dont wanna be sonic the hedgehog while playing 4v4

Why? Halo will really feel like an arena shooter if movement speed resembles other arena fps games. The skill gap will increase due to the difficulty of hitting targets that are moving faster and the pace of the game will be faster.

 

Faster movement is a good thing.

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Question: When did we become so concerned with "alienating ourselves" to the point that we want to just play vanilla? What is the point for us to do that? 

 

I would be thrilled if a Halo title came out of the box vanilla competitive and 100% perfect, but I do not think that has EVER happened.  I think @@Aphex Twin mentioned it earlier in this thread - every game we have stripped down and geared for competitive play.  Whether it be no radars, no dual wielding, no equipment in Halo 3, No Bloom No Sprint in Reach etc. We have always "alienated" ourselves technically in one way or another.

The further into Halo we get, the more we alienate ourselves from the casual community.

 

In Halo 1 there really were no changes.

 

We basically played the Slayer Pro gametypes which were competitive out of the box with tiny variations (changing respawn times and kill count).

 

Most casual players probably played with generic starting weapons (Pistol/AR) anyway, since the alternative was spawning with a plasma pistol on most maps. Even kids that played nothing but BG CTF all day used generic starting weapons.

 

Someone who has never played MLG settings in their life could enter an MLG tournament and feel at home.

 

Then in Halo 2 we didn't change a whole lot either. We made starting weapons BR and turned off radar which really wasn't hard for people to deal with. In later MLG variations the guns on the map were changed, however it still wasn't too bad. Power weapons still appeared in power weapon locations, Overshield and Camo still spawned in the same places.

 

Then in Halo 3 things got out of control. Weapons were moved, custom power ups were used, movement speed was increased and half the maps we played on were boring grey blocks that would be incredibly confusing for a lot of players tuning into MLG for the first time thinking "wtf map is this".

 

Yes, sure Halo 3 was the height of MLG popularity, but at the same time CoD had only just come out and hadn't built a huge competitive fan base yet. Many players from Halo 2 were still playing the game and the gameplay was still pretty exciting to watch.

 

The point in catering to casuals is that casual players need to watch the game for pro players to earn money. Go check out the communities that follow LoL, CS and SC. Most of them suck. Most the people following LoL are probably in Bronze League. Most the people watching CS have probably never played in a tournament. They still enjoy watching the game though. Ever notice how the LoL community and the CS community don't have casual players saying things like "2 minute timers for rounds sucks" like the "BR starts suck" crowd that Halo has? All those guys saying how much they hate BR's sure as hell aren't tuning in to watch tournaments.

 

Casual audience is required because that's where the money comes from. If the only people tuning in to watch MLG tournaments are people that play MLG settings than we have failed. Sponsors will drop the game so fast because there's no point in advertising to 100,000 people when games like LoL have 10X's the viewer numbers.

 

If we drop sprint from Halo 5 rules we are basically playing an entirely different game than the casual players. At that point we might as well just play a different game altogether and call it a day.

 

@@Saucey

 

Yeah, sure, you could play the game without sprinting however it plays completely differently. Unless you've seen 2 pro teams playing each other without sprint, allowing 3 months after launch for players to work out strats, etc, you can't possibly judge how well the game will play without sprint.

 

There is no way 343 is going to drop sprint from HCS and alienate their casual audience.

 

I'd love it to happen, but lets be real here... This is the same company that brought you promethean vision, ordnance drops and instant respawns...

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It is classified as a Spartan Ability, along with sprint, slide, ground pound, spartan charge, smart link and auto stabilizers. 

Thanks for clarifying. 

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Why? Halo will really feel like an arena shooter if movement speed resembles other arena fps games. The skill gap will increase due to the difficulty of hitting targets that are moving faster and the pace of the game will be faster.

 

Faster movement is a good thing.

Ehhhh, yes and no. High movement speed is king in arena shooters that use projectile instead of hit scan (Quake, Unreal Tournament, Team Fortress). It wouldn't really make sense in an environment like Halo unless you want kill times to be that much longer.

 

At the same time, most people probably don't want that underwater feeling vanilla Halo 3 gave us either.

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So what abilities do you guys think we should toggle off for competitive play? At the very least I'd say sprint (obviously), ground pound, and Spartan Charge. Clamber and sliding honestly don't seem really detrimental to the meta to me. So I'm on the fence with those, and the rest idk.

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