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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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If getting toggle crouch is a big win for our community I feel like we we're in last place. The people from 343i be it Quinn, Frankie, Bsangel, etc.. they kept saying that they did want to split the community, but once again they are doing it like what they are doing in Reach. Only one playlist gets no sprint, and that will most likely be the competitive playlist. What about the ones that voted for no sprint that aren't competitive. It's not fair. Granted I am happy that it's coming out with a toggle item, but i am not 100% sure I want to buy the game yet.

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I didnt play much Halo 5 but from what I remember there is no Power Ups (Overshield, invis) or Equipment (Buble, grav lift) ?

 

Power ups obviously offer alot, even in a competitive sense.

Equipment are fun in social sense. Nothing better then when you face a rocket guy, throw out you bubble and he kills himself.

 

h3 was really the perfect social game IMO, it didn't have the highest skill gap in the series but it had a good one in its own right.

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Question.

 

Would we alienate the rest of the community by only removing Sprint from the "Competitive" gametypes? With only Sprint removed, the game is marginally more fun than before. The other abilities (Thruster, Ground Pound, Clamber, Stabilizers) are decent options when Sprint is no longer a factor. Sliding and Charge are also removed because they require Sprint to work, and that keeps double pummeling to a minimum. Buff the movement to a cozy percentage where the strafe is still useful, and bam; you got yourself a pretty nice game.

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I'm happy with pretty much all of the changes and I think they've made some good decisions. But what I'm not happy with is that the changes aren't enough. I knew it was incredibly unlikely they'd take out sprint and clamber and then announce they were working on some better maps to accommodate the more classic style of gameplay, but that's honestly what it would have taken for me to be excited about Halo 5. The reality is that I'm still not interested. A bunch of tiny good changes is not enough to make me want to buy the game.

One of the most disappointing things is that they haven't decided to include a toggle for classic zoom, even though ADS was one of those few things that the fanbase unanimously hated. Even Waypoint threads about the subject showed that 99% of people were like "lol no get that shit out of Halo". So why in the living f*ck would 343 not at least include a toggle?

 

Even when it comes to the good changes they've decided to make, I don't know how happy I should be about them, because we don't know to what degree the changes will be made. Exactly how much will base speed be increased? Exactly how much will sprint speed be decreased? Knowing 343, they could make those changes to such small degrees that we wont even be able to perceive it, but they'll benefit by simply having said it.

And how about the decision to decrease the amount and frequency of medals? That's brilliant, but what if they only end up taking out 5 medals overall, even though there are probably about 35 medals that aren't needed at this point?

 

I suspect that between now and the release of the game, they'll give it plenty of talk about the changes that they're making, but they wont give any specifics. And what we'll end up getting is changes that sounded great in theory, but didn't make much difference at all to the final game because 343 were using the changes more for PR than for actually changing the game. And I wouldn't put it past 343 to sneakily reverse some of the changes before release. I'm fully expecting high levels of auto-aim in the final game, but you wont hear a thing about it until it's released and everyone's already bought it.

 

I can't stand 343. Coming to forums to find out news about the franchise you love and to discuss the developer's decisions shouldn't be stressful.

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Yeah, these toggles aren't quite a game-changer, but at least puts me in the "might buy it" category.

 

Good thing because this was the only reason for 343 to add the toggle. If you think HCS will be no sprint then you are lost.

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So my trend is something thas has happened, aka FACT.

 

Markets change, and something popular 5 years ago isn't guaranteed to be popular again, aka FACT.

 

You are making assumptions, and you, nor anyone else, has any idea how a real Halo would sell, aka FACT.

 

He's saying based on market trends classic Halo wouldn't sell as well (NOT wouldnt sell at all) as a Halo game with sprint. Even though I don't necessarily agree, it is worth pointing out that in economics market trends generally hold more weight than outdated data.

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There weren't any powerups in the beta but thankfully they've said they'll be in the final game.

along with betrayals apparently. Was really annoyed that wasn't in h4 for some reason lol.
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along with betrayals apparently. Was really annoyed that wasn't in h4 for some reason lol.

Call of Duty doesn't have betrayals. That's the reason

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along with betrayals apparently. Was really annoyed that wasn't in h4 for some reason lol.

Betrayals will be in the final game. It wasn't in the beta because it hadn't been set up properly yet.

 

The Spartan Chatter  also made callouts for friendly fire.

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Call of Duty doesn't have betrayals. That's the reason

you know I'm not one to get excited over halo having feathers from other games, but that's when they work. There wasn't a whole lot that ce came up with on its own, but what it took fit together perfectly. 343 has yet to learn that.

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Disagree entirely.

We had this same situation in 2010 and 2012. We all wanted to turn off Sprint and we simply didn't because we didn't want to alienate the new players coming into the competitive scene. At least with Halo: Reach we finally grew a pair and decided to take Sprint out, take AAs out and use the No Bloom gametypes provided by 343. Heck, they even provided us with some No Bloom Objective gametypes that didn't exist in Matchmaking yet.

Fast forward to Halo 4 and we were stuck with Sprint, Ordnance, etc again all because we didn't want to alienate the new players trying to get into the competitive scene. This time we didn't actually have a Sprint toggle even though it could be:

1. Turned off by 343 using Megalo - only tools they had for a short time
2. Turned off by modders using modding tools

343 refused to give us a non-modded no-sprint gametype so we were stuck with the shit-end of the stick for five versions of settings. Although they were sort of competitive, removing Sprint and upping the movement speed would have done fucking wonders for Halo 4. I think it was the EU scene who had the balls to host a no-sprint Halo 4 event and received no dev support from 343 - they didn't care because of how much better the game played.

The arguments about not using a modded no sprint gametype for Halo 4 was absurd because we knew 343 would give people what they wanted provided it was popular enough. Take a look at Mini Slayer that got added to Halo 4's Action Sack. To begin with this was a modded gametype that spread like wildfire in the custom games communities, 343 noticed this and actually made it official with their own tools and added it to Matchmaking.

I'm still willing to bet if Ghost dived into using a no sprint mod for V4/5 - we'd have gotten an official one within a week but whatever, that's passed.

Now lets look at Halo 2 Anniversary and the Halo Championship Series - 343 have stated many times that they are aiming to keep the maps and gameplay identical so the jump from casual to competitive matches are easy. This is why the HCS maps are still scattered with Assault Rifles, Needlers, etc. They aren't going to suddenly drop this philosophy when moving into Halo 5: Guardians at the end of the year. They are finally following in the footsteps of Riot with League of Legends and Valve with CS:GO - they're keeping the competitive side of the game identical to the vanilla side. As a result, players can easily tune into a tournament and easily understand what's happening and pick up the game without much effort.

Look back at competitive Halo over the past decade:

Halo 2 took out dual wielding.
Halo 3 took out dual wielding and a few weapons.
Halo: Reach took out Sprint, Bloom, AAs

Halo 2 and Halo 3 arguably didn't change much from the vanilla game and it worked great because it was still identifiable to the casual fan. With Halo 5: Guardians, you're going to see an exact repeat of Halo: Reach.

We're going to try out all these new 'exciting' changes that 343 have offered us:

Sprint
Thrusters
Clamber
Slide
Stabilizers
Ground Pound
Spartan Charge

We are all going to agree they suck for competitive play and start campaigning to remove them from the HCS which ultimately, 343 are in charge of. Keeping in mind their philosophy of keeping the competitive game nearly the same as the vanilla game, this is literally not going to happen. If you remove all or some of these Spartan Abilities, the casual fan is left wondering why these abilities aren't working.

Your argument Joe is that after a few months, we will see a little leverage that the launch hype is gone - that's not going to happen. 343 don't want to make the game fundamentally different from the vanilla version and its a simple as that. Even if they were to eventually remove Sprint and other Spartan Abilities after a few months, would it even be worth it at that point?

The initial hype will have died down, players will have realized that all these stupid abilities were still in the competitive game and will have moved on to CoD, LoL, CSGO, Dota 2, etc just like they always do. If we want Halo 5 to stand a single chance at being competitive and successful at it - Sprint and these other dumb Spartan Abilities need to be gone from the base game too.

See: Halo: Reach - we finally got rid of Sprint, we finally got rid of Bloom, we finally upped the movement speed to something that wasn't awful, we finally removed the AAs and we got one of the most competitive Halo titles to date from it but by the time it was implemented and used in a tournament setting, MLG was already dropping it because of how bad it was before.

TL;DR - 343 aren't going to remove what they consider core gameplay elements from competitive so casual fans can easily jump over to the competitive side if they want to. This is happening with H2A currently and will happen with Halo 5: Guardians in the long run.



You missed the point entirely.

The point of my post is that 343 is beginning to alter settings that we thought were here permanently.

I also said toggle isn't the answer, but rather a huge step forward in getting sprint removed altogether.

I understand the alienation argument and I agree to a certain extent but I feel like if everything in the settings were vanilla, minus being able to sprint that it would have little to no negative results from "alienation". Now if all the Spartan abilities were somehow off and we were playing Pro Mods then I could understand how alienation would be a huge factor, but I am confident simply toggling off sprint wouldn't even matter, let alone deter people from watching.

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Except there is a past trend of core-halo gameplay selling well.

 

There's never been a trend of classic-halo-like gameplay selling poorly.

 

 

 

So my trend is something thas has happened, aka FACT.

 

And yours is something that hasn't, aka IMAGINATION.

 

 

The fact that modern military shooters sell well has no bearing on possible success of the Halo formula. Just because some people want SUVs doesn't mean no one wants trucks. They kept making trucks after SUVs became popular. For some reason they stopped making Halo when CoD became popular.

lmao. Using past trends to predict future trends is fact?

 

Did you take ANY economics courses? Like, even economics 1? 

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lmao. Using past trends to predict future trends is fact?

 

Did you take ANY economics courses? Like, even economics 1? 

 

Better than using zero evidence to predict sales. You still haven't shown me any evidence of a halo-like game that sold poorly.

 

So yes, I might be using out-dated data. What data are you using?

 

Between you and @@Raynard it's like I'm on waypoint...

 

 

 

Pepsi starts outselling Coke - so Coke makes new Coke - It's a failure.

 

You guys would have said "I guess Coke can be a niche drink now, it'll never be on top again. People just don't like Coke anymore."

 

Meanwhile I'm all "Fuck guys, classic coke always sold well - Let's bring that back."

 

That's what happened, and they called it Coke Classic - then it outsold Pepsi and never lost 1st place again.

 

Josh Holmes style yo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

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Question.

 

Would we alienate the rest of the community by only removing Sprint from the "Competitive" gametypes? With only Sprint removed, the game is marginally more fun than before. The other abilities (Thruster, Ground Pound, Clamber, Stabilizers) are decent options when Sprint is no longer a factor. Sliding and Charge are also removed because they require Sprint to work, and that keeps double pummeling to a minimum. Buff the movement to a cozy percentage where the strafe is still useful, and bam; you got yourself a pretty nice game.

 

Technically because features are missing, yes.

 

However, would this impact viewership, event attendance, etc? More than likely not if sprint was just turned off.  Also Sliding and Charge are honestly pointless features in my opinion that I saw used maybe a handful of times by people in the beta when I played. 

 

 

 

 

To get really technical the competitive scene already alienates itself by being so hardcore and passionate about the game that we are playing it for money.  You could make the argument that a casual player tuning in would be alienated because they dont know the callouts that pros are yelling into their mics, you could make the argument competitive players using BR starts alienates them from casuals, that forging / slightly altering maps alienates the community, etc. 

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Question.

 

Would we alienate the rest of the community by only removing Sprint from the "Competitive" gametypes? With only Sprint removed, the game is marginally more fun than before. The other abilities (Thruster, Ground Pound, Clamber, Stabilizers) are decent options when Sprint is no longer a factor. Sliding and Charge are also removed because they require Sprint to work, and that keeps double pummeling to a minimum. Buff the movement to a cozy percentage where the strafe is still useful, and bam; you got yourself a pretty nice game.

They can't remove Sprint from the competitive gametypes because they want to keep the experience the same for everyone playing. The toggle is just going to be a useless addition.

 

They might make a "classic" playlist but they simply can't take out Sprint from the comp gametypes while at the same time advertising H5 as a competitive title.

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Better than using zero evidence to predict sales. You still haven't shown me any evidence of a halo-like game that sold poorly.

 

So yes, I might be using out-dated data. What data are you using?

 

Between you and @@Raynard it's like I'm on waypoint...

 

 

 

Pepsi starts outselling Coke - so Coke makes new Coke - It's a failure.

 

You guys would have said "I guess Coke can be a niche drink now, it'll never be on top again. People just don't like Coke anymore."

 

Meanwhile I'm all "Fuck guys, classic coke always sold well - Let's bring that back."

 

That's what happened, and they called it Coke Classic - then it outsold Pepsi and never lost 1st place again.

 

Josh Holmes style yo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

Can you have an argument without insulting someone? 

 

How hard is it to understand: You can't predict future market trends/results with past data. It would sell well on hype "classic halo is back! omg!" but it wouldn't be as big or #1 again without an immense, modernized effort (think CS:GO's model). MCC is the big return to classic Halo, "what's old is new again"! It only sold 1.2m-ish copies? Same install base as the 360 w/ Halo 3. While this is an iffy comparison considering they're old games and not a new, classic halo, it's still worth noting. 

 

It's amazing, saying I'm FROM waypoint yet me and Raynard are both stating our claim without insulting you while you tell people to suck a dick. Who did you say was from waypoint again?

 

Calm the fuck down and deal with the fact that other people have differing opinions. 

 

And please, don't use beverages as a way to compare video games, not the same thing at all lol

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Look back at competitive Halo over the past decade:

 

Halo 2 took out dual wielding.

Halo 3 took out dual wielding and a few weapons.

Halo: Reach took out Sprint, Bloom, AAs

 

In Halo 2 we also removed radar, smg starts, used double time for weapon respawns, altered suicide/betrayal penalties, and removed all but 5 maps.

 

In halo 3 we changed base player speed, player damage modifiers, player spawn points, flag carrier damage traits, changed weapon spawn locations, set weapons to drop spawns, changed the time at which a weapon would respawn, removed equipment, removed radar, removed fusion coils, removed AR starts, and removed all but 6 maps.

 

The tournament scene has used settings in the past that differ pretty significantly from the vanilla experience without losing popularity. Even Reach had its most successful tournament after the implementation of zbns settings.

 

I don't think that changing the settings to maximize the skill gap will make the tournament aspect of halo 5 unpopular.

 

The problem is that we have to convince 343 to toggle off the spartan abilities and increase player speed settings to compensate for maps sizes.

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Tbh I'll be fucking shocked if the toggle isn't a lie or broken in some way. They lied about flinch being a bug in H4, they lied about dedis, they (most likely) lied about having no idea how broken the MCC would be, what makes you think they're not bullshitting us? I'm not saying that 100% they're deceiving us - heck even if it's guaranteed to be in, they're grossly incompetent (see: H4, MCC, HCS, any communication we've ever had with them, and any Halo film/video series they've ever been involved in) and will either fuck up the coding which'll be repaired 4 months post-release or forget to put it in until a CU 6 months post-release.

 

And no matter what, it's still a single nudge forward admist a myriad of leaps they've taken south.

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Personally i am happy with the changes announced to Halo 5.

 

But i am always worried about 343 ruining the "smallest" things.

 

They will ruin flag again? Oddball? The other objectives? Fix magnetism? They will leave flinch? No doubles, swat, snipers, etc. until several months? No social playlists? They will deliver a good forge without framerate issues?

has me waking up in cold sweats lol

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So let's ignore the fact we're talking about Halo for a second.

 

What you're saying is that outdated information holds more weight than the current trends in the market. Am I correct? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying, and entry level economics classes explain exactly why this is wrong.

 

But I must be wrong. You've looked at data from 7 years ago and found the solution to bring Halo back! Why haven't MS hired an expert like yourself yet?

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That's nice and all, but now how do we convince 343 to scale the maps to fit no sprint? 

 

Toggle sprint isn't a "win". It's a delusional win. Pretty much gave the competitive scene their bottle of milk and moved on. 

 

And I understand forged maps are a possibility, but I don't really think people want to look at forged maps all day. People want a nice enviornment to play their games.

 

From what I saw on Ninja's stream, map size really wasn't an issue. I reckon if movement speed is sped up as well, they really should'nt be too detrimental

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Pretty great.

 

There are a lot of good things in there:

  • Medals are finally getting tuned down
  • I can turn off chatter
  • I can turn off kill cams
  • Scopes aren't irritating
  • SPRINT CAN BE TURNED OFF
  • Those awful end game cinematics are getting tuned down
  • The ground-pound/crouch jump bug is going
  • Movement is getting some great improvements
  • The SPNKR rocket launcher is coming back
  • Vibration can actually be turned off (thank god)
  • The announcer wont yell at me as much
  • Ranking is only going to get better, I already thought it was fantastic
  • There will be team balancing, something I am annoyed wasn't present anyway but whatever

Yeah sprint is still going to be the main gametype, which will harm competitive popularity but I really feel that there's a lot of positives here. I'm frankly amazed that Josh is capable of logical thinking like this and I'm happy to take it in while I can.

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I think it definitely is a win that we got a toggle- not because it's going to make a lick of difference gameplay wise (it doesn't, see below) but because it shows they are finally willing to budge after 3 years of absolutely refusing to support no sprint in any way. Maybe this indicates if we really keep pushing sprint will finally die the death it should have died years ago.

 

In terms of the toggles actual effect on matchmaking though, it will be literally zero. HCS is never going to adopt different settings. 343s whole deal since the H4GC has been that they want "anyone" to enjoy the competitive side. Making HCS a niche gametype is simply not going to happen.

 

So we'll maybe get one no sprint playlist. Who's going to play it? Competitive players will be in the HCS list. We know from Reach and H4 the niche lists won't get casual attention. The only people who are going to play it unless 343 makes it a "Classic Halo" list and puts it at the top of the matchmaking lists (they won't) is literally the few hundred people from this site who know about it and are willing to keep playing. Everyone else will either just leave or play the default lists. Then a few months down the line when the games population is five percent of what it was off launch, 343 will remove the no sprint playlist and passive aggressively rub it in our faces and use it to justify the inclusion of sprint once again in H6.

 

All in all the update does nothing for me. The core issues with the default game (ease of escape, ADS, big stretched maps) are still there. It's Reach and H4 all over again and after nearly ten years of what has honestly been fucking bullshit from Bungie and 343 over and over and over again I think most of us are fed up. I know I am. I know a lot of people think this community's expectations are unrealistic but it has seriously been almost TEN YEARS since the release of a truly decent Halo game that sustained or grew the population rather than did damage. It may be unrealistic to ask for game wide sweeping changes like rescaling of maps and removal of sprint but that's what it's going to take to make many of us care again after the disasters of H4 and MCC.

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A few months ago we had hope that Halo was actually returning to its roots.  We were promised no armor abilities, even starts, yada yada yada.

I can't deny that a sprint toggle is a 'win' for the competitive community considering the alternative is that we don't have a sprint toggle.  However, compared to what I thought we may be getting it still sucks, so I don't really care. 

This 'win' feels entirely hollow and meaningless.

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