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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Heinz is the man. I wish the whole Pro community voiced their opinions like that. They all need to. 

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I am a little confused. 343i wants to head towards a "competitive" scene, and the 11% seem to be the competitive players. Granted they did toggle it with only 11% disagreeing, but they also said that they didn't want to split the community. THIS IS SPLITTING THE COMMUNITY! They are the most hypocritical gaming developers I have ever been apart of. They really need to make a decision either remove sprint, or keep it.

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I'll put forth an argument in favor of sprint. This is reposted from the thread "Why is Sprint good for Halo?"

Sprint encourages a different skillset than no-sprint gametypes.

With sprint, enemies are more "slippery," and can get away very easily. When two players get into a gunfight, the losing player (Player A) can simply turn tail and run away. This is the cause of much frustration to the other player (Player Z). The usual thought process of (Player Z) is "I challenged that player in a 1v1 gunfight, and I was winning -- purely based on better initial positioning, better shooting skill, better strafe, better nades, etc. Why can they just escape my superior skill with a simple press of a button?"

This is a valid opinion. (Player Z) was clearly more skilled and had the better positioning. However, this scenario doesn't take into consideration the team as a whole.

There is a way to look at this situation differently, in terms of teamwork rather than individual play. I think that is what bothers most people about the addition of sprint; it emphasizes/forces teamplay over individual skill. To outplay your opponent, you need to be more than individually skilled. You need flawless communication, teamwork, and flanks.

Getting kills is more difficult in sprint gametypes. You must completely trap and outplay an opponent to kill them. Mediocre (Player Z) is frustrated because he cannot finish (Player A) on his own, despite his superior skill. However, experienced (Player C) does not fret when (Player A) runs from him. He understands that his team was not in position to capitalize on (Player A)'s mistakes.

If (Player A) and (Player C) engaged in a 1v1, and no kills were exchanged, it is likely that neither team was in position to capitalize on the fight. The fight was meaningless; just two players trading shots. A skilled team in sprint gametypes will be constantly rotating with their teammates to catch enemy players out of position.

I have played huge amount of Halo Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5. My team in Halo 5 were all ranked Pro, and we consistently beat full teams of Pros during the beta. I am basing my argument on personal anecdotal evidence, not just wishful thinking. Amongst our team, a common understanding is "It's a team game: you should NEVER be in a 1v1 scenario." If a player runs away after an engagement, great. Your team did not capitalize on their error.

I know this is hugely different than the gameplay of previous halos, where 1v1 battles are common and decided the game. Please take into consideration this different skillset and style of beating the opponent.

Please note, no where in this article do I say "sprint is more skillful." I am just showing different skills required for sprint gameplay.


Arguments I already see coming:

"Players can still escape in no-sprint gametypes. It just takes more skill and map awareness. Players have to be constantly aware of escape routes instead of pressing a get-out-of-jail free card. With sprint, players just slow the game down by denying the enemy team a rightful kill."

This argument has merit. Escaping takes more skill in no-sprint gametypes. However, it also makes capitalizing on an enemy's bad position much, much easier. In halo 2, if a player is in bad positioning, it is very easy for the opposing team to collapse on them and get the kill. So easy that it is basically a formality. With sprint, capitalizing on bad positioning is something only the best teams excel at. Players in an undesirable location will only remain there for a VERY short amount of time, due to all of the movement options available to them. It takes the most coordinated teams to capitalize on that short window of vulnerability.


"Sprint slows the game down, just like armor lock. Bad players can just run in circles, delaying their death. They should be punished for their bad positioning."

I totally understand this argument. It is super annoying to see a player straight in the open, open fire on him, only to see him run away to cover. However, I think our opinions would be different if we looked at it a different way. Who says that player in the open should die? Our past experiences in halo games tell us "being in the open is a shitty idea and will get us killed, why did that ****** not die." In sprint gametypes, this isn't the case anymore. Open areas aren't deathtraps anymore. The only reason you think you should have gotten that kill, is because you would have gotten the kill in previous halo games. I'm just trying to say its a different game.


"This is stupid, all you are saying is that sprint is different. gtfo noob"

It is different... That's the point. Sprint is different and it emphasizes a different skillset. Experiences in past games don't relate. You are no longer guaranteed to win 1v1s with a better shot, and you are no longer guaranteed to kill a player with bad positioning. Do I think that it is better? Nope. But I also think that many veteran players dislike it because it is not what they are used to.

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It's just irritating to be a Halo fan at this point and Heinz and other pros are starting to get very rustled and speak out against 343 which we need to see more of. Every other FPS has sprint in it right now except for CS:GO and Halo but for some reason we all need to adjust and conform to Sprint for this next generation.....

 

This next generation of gamers are stupid, lazy, wanted everything handed to them and dont want to excel at what they decide to do....just like the kids of this generation and its sad to see.

 

There were little kids playing back in H2 days and little kids playing in H3 grinding non stop trying to improve everyday just so they could say they were "this good" online or "this good" against their friends. I hate that FPS's have been moving away from competition but then want to claim that they want too focus on multiplayer....its BS.

 

 

Every online shooter game developed from wanting to be the best, thats the point of playing online is to play against other people around the world and test your skill....CoD is the first major FPS to implement Sprint and because of that now we have to follow suit? Kick rock 343 you trash ass company forreal.

 

 

In Halo 3 nobody talked about sprint, but in Halo reach it was brought up because CoD was on the come up, then CoD passes Reach because Reach tried to copy CoD and now every company is playing the "copy CoD" or die trying business model its sad lol

 

CoD never tried to copy Halo ever, they never said "hey Halo is more popular then us, lets take away sprint and maybe we will get some of those casual halo fans to come over"...

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I am a little confused. 343i wants to head towards a "competitive" scene, and the 11% seem to be the competitive players. Granted they did toggle it with only 11% disagreeing, but they also said that they didn't want to split the community. THIS IS SPLITTING THE COMMUNITY! They are the most hypocritical gaming developers I have ever been apart of. They really need to make a decision either remove sprint, or keep it.

11% if you actually trust the results of that poll, which you most certainly shouldn't. I think if it was a yes or no we'd see ~75% not in favor of sprint. 

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I was just talking with a couple friends of mine who primarily play games like CoD about sprint, and why it doesn't work in Halo. Tried explaining how it lets people escape from battles, but they were under the impression that people rarely escape because of sprint and sprint speeds up gameplay by getting you into battle quicker. I responded to them by talking about how sprint slows down gameplay and has been a leading factor as to why Halo maps have gotten larger since Reach. They responded with "Bigger maps are better. Why wouldn't you like that?" Then I started discussing how big maps are fun in BTB, and you can use vehicles to get you from place to place rather than sprint, while arena maps are smaller because with the movement speeds of earlier games, there was no need for sprint, and you couldn't just sprint behind a corner if you felt that you may lose a gunfight. They disagreed and the convo ended up changing topics after that.

Yeah I was just talking about this in another thread. Saying "It makes the maps bigger" doesn't mean anything to a COD guy. For them their maps are huge. 

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Yeah I was just talking about this in another thread. Saying "It makes the maps bigger" doesn't mean anything to a COD guy. For them their maps are huge. 

 

atleast they have big maps, and small maps, and medium maps, and ACTUAL map packs that get released - and they are not stuck looking at shitty grey and blue colored maps that look like they were built back on original xbox.

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I'll put forth an argument in favor of sprint. This is reposted from the thread "Why is Sprint good for Halo?"

 

Sprint encourages a different skillset than no-sprint gametypes.

 

With sprint, enemies are more "slippery," and can get away very easily. When two players get into a gunfight, the losing player (Player A) can simply turn tail and run away. This is the cause of much frustration to the other player (Player Z). The usual thought process of (Player Z) is "I challenged that player in a 1v1 gunfight, and I was winning -- purely based on better initial positioning, better shooting skill, better strafe, better nades, etc. Why can they just escape my superior skill with a simple press of a button?"

 

This is a valid opinion. (Player Z) was clearly more skilled and had the better positioning. However, this scenario doesn't take into consideration the team as a whole.

 

There is a way to look at this situation differently, in terms of teamwork rather than individual play. I think that is what bothers most people about the addition of sprint; it emphasizes/forces teamplay over individual skill. To outplay your opponent, you need to be more than individually skilled. You need flawless communication, teamwork, and flanks.

 

Getting kills is more difficult in sprint gametypes. You must completely trap and outplay an opponent to kill them. Mediocre (Player Z) is frustrated because he cannot finish (Player A) on his own, despite his superior skill. However, experienced (Player C) does not fret when (Player A) runs from him. He understands that his team was not in position to capitalize on (Player A)'s mistakes.

 

If (Player A) and (Player C) engaged in a 1v1, and no kills were exchanged, it is likely that neither team was in position to capitalize on the fight. The fight was meaningless; just two players trading shots. A skilled team in sprint gametypes will be constantly rotating with their teammates to catch enemy players out of position.

 

I have played huge amount of Halo Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5. My team in Halo 5 were all ranked Pro, and we consistently beat full teams of Pros during the beta. I am basing my argument on personal anecdotal evidence, not just wishful thinking. Amongst our team, a common understanding is "It's a team game: you should NEVER be in a 1v1 scenario." If a player runs away after an engagement, great. Your team did not capitalize on their error.

 

I know this is hugely different than the gameplay of previous halos, where 1v1 battles are common and decided the game. Please take into consideration this different skillset and style of beating the opponent.

 

Please note, no where in this article do I say "sprint is more skillful." I am just showing different skills required for sprint gameplay.

 

 

Arguments I already see coming:

 

"Players can still escape in no-sprint gametypes. It just takes more skill and map awareness. Players have to be constantly aware of escape routes instead of pressing a get-out-of-jail free card. With sprint, players just slow the game down by denying the enemy team a rightful kill."

 

This argument has merit. Escaping takes more skill in no-sprint gametypes. However, it also makes capitalizing on an enemy's bad position much, much easier. In halo 2, if a player is in bad positioning, it is very easy for the opposing team to collapse on them and get the kill. So easy that it is basically a formality. With sprint, capitalizing on bad positioning is something only the best teams excel at. Players in an undesirable location will only remain there for a VERY short amount of time, due to all of the movement options available to them. It takes the most coordinated teams to capitalize on that short window of vulnerability.

 

 

"Sprint slows the game down, just like armor lock. Bad players can just run in circles, delaying their death. They should be punished for their bad positioning."

 

I totally understand this argument. It is super annoying to see a player straight in the open, open fire on him, only to see him run away to cover. However, I think our opinions would be different if we looked at it a different way. Who says that player in the open should die? Our past experiences in halo games tell us "being in the open is a shitty idea and will get us killed, why did that ****** not die." In sprint gametypes, this isn't the case anymore. Open areas aren't deathtraps anymore. The only reason you think you should have gotten that kill, is because you would have gotten the kill in previous halo games. I'm just trying to say its a different game.

 

 

"This is stupid, all you are saying is that sprint is different. gtfo noob"

 

It is different... That's the point. Sprint is different and it emphasizes a different skillset. Experiences in past games don't relate. You are no longer guaranteed to win 1v1s with a better shot, and you are no longer guaranteed to kill a player with bad positioning. Do I think that it is better? Nope. But I also think that many veteran players dislike it because it is not what they are used to.

This is how I feel about it. I believe sprint makes Halo a different game. Some will enjoy both but prefer one more than the other (I enjoy both but prefer No-Sprint) while others will love one but hate the other (like the majority of Beyond it seems)  

 

atleast they have big maps, and small maps, and medium maps, and ACTUAL map packs that get released - and they are not stuck looking at shitty grey and blue colored maps that look like they were built back on original xbox.

What I'm saying is there idea of a "small" map to me as a Halo fan is huge. When my little brother wants me to 1v1 him in COD we have to play MW2 Rust other wise I feel like we're playing on Blood Gulch.

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I guarantee that 11% is accurate, people don't seem to realize that casual players actually make up the bulk of the community. And casuals like sprint. 

I don't think casuals even care what features are in the game, let alone participating in surveys.

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I haven't read through this entire thread so maybe someone has already shared a similar thought but there is a part of me that wishes 343 would have just taken a stand with respect to sprint instead of giving us the toggle option.

 

I wish they would have said "Sprint is in" or "Sprint is out" and that's our decision.  The choice to toggle immediately divides the entire population.  I fall into the "No Sprint in Halo" camp (and abilities) but have come to accept that Halo is forever changed, evolving and not going back to the classic game I enjoy.

 

I am also one of those that sometimes wonder if being given the ability to change so much of the game through custom settings and forge is one of the many things that lead us to where we are now.  This is well below on the list of the many changes in the core gameplay that have a negative impact on the game but still a thought that I have every once in a while. It brought back with the news that we will be able to toggle sprint.  I accept being given the option of placing weapons, changing weapon times and modifying other non core gameplay items.  However, once we start changing movement speed, jump height, weapon damage, shields etc it immediately becomes divisive.  Again, I understand that having those features in the past has saved the game from a competitive perspective; I just wish they would get the game correct out of the box so we wouldn't have to even consider changing the settings.  Again, I am completely undecided on what I think on how forge and custom settings have ultimately affected the longevity of Halo overall.

 

Therefore, there is a part of me that is wishing they would have said "Sprint is in, we are going to balance it and this the direction, we the developer, is taking the franchise".  I would have disagreed with it and possibly even respected such a firm statement and commitment. Taking such a stance would have made the choice on whether I continue to support and play Halo or walk away much easier for me.  The toggle option simply leaves it in an ambiguous and frustrating state with respect to the game that I don't want to have any longer.  I mean going from CE to H2 to H3 brought frustration but it was bearable but H3 to HR to H4 to now H5 has completely robbed any enjoyment I once had in the franchise.

 

 

Would you have rathered they made a single design choice and stood by their decision? 

 

OR

 

Are you glad they at least gave us the choice to toggle sprint on/off regardless what it will do to divide the Halo population?  (At this moment I am not sure where I stand)

 

Oh and I am happy about the base movement speed buff and the decrease the speed delta between that is sprint but I am not happy that a "full stop sprinting when shot" function was not mentioned since sprint is staying

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I don't think casuals even bother participating in surveys.

depends on what you consider casual. I'm sure a lot of casuals participated, it was just that it was the idiots who voted in favor of sprint. I would consider myself casual since it don't pay attention to tournaments, or necessarily focus on ranks, though I understand the value of a well designed game, and what 343 hasn't realized is that a competitive game can be played casually, a casual game can't be played competitively.

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Not talking about the industry, you were asking why wouldn't microsoft milk H1-3 and I was pointing out they did. We won't know if the old formula would work in 2015 until they release a game with it but don't act like Microsoft/343 haven't made any mistakes as if they know using the old formula wouldn't make more money. Porting those game would take up a lot of resources, time and costs btw, just look at the compensation they have to giveaway now for a million+ people, the parts of the game they had to outsource and extra 3 months of work on it (at least), been working on it 1-2 years now.

I'm not saying 343/MS have done nothing wrong, but surely they must have something to back up their support of sprint. Like I said before, if removing sprint would benefit the population like a lot of people seem to think, then they would have removed it by now. MS don't turn down money.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

I don't care if 99.99% voted yes to sprint

 

It hasn't worked in previous halo games and it NEVER will

343 don't give a fuck if it works - the only thing they care about is how much money they can make.

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This is how I feel about it. I believe sprint makes Halo a different game. Some will enjoy both but prefer one more than the other (I enjoy both but prefer No-Sprint) while others will love one but hate the other (like the majority of Beyond it seems)  

 

What I'm saying is there idea of a "small" map to me as a Halo fan is huge. When my little brother wants me to 1v1 him in COD we have to play MW2 Rust other wise I feel like we're playing on Blood Gulch.

 

Dont forget the multiple 2v2 maps that were put out in MW3 - those junks were amazing.

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http://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/2v087t/77_of_the_fans_want_sprint_in_confirmed_by_343/

 

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

 

On a side note, I just remembered that another game that I loved, the Bioshock 2 multiplayer, did not have sprint. It just had a really fast movespeed. If it wasn't for the awful netcode and random spawning big daddies in Team Slayer, the game would have been solid for years.

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