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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I better get 3 extra KB+M set ups so I can play splitscreen H6 with my friends

Does MadCatz make keyboards and mice?

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Ah yes, the classic KBM vs. Controller debate.

 

First off, aim assists on consoles is not 100% necessary for a game to be viable. Yes, it is definitely a steeper learning curve and it makes some types of games unbearable, but in certain games it can work very well and even improve the experience. CoD comes to mind immediately as a console game that would benefit immensely from 0 aim assists. You would be surprised at how quickly player's aim would improve without aim assists, even though it would be a struggle at first.

 

Regardless, a game can be competitive and still grant some "assists" to the players. There's a reason why the inner circumference of a basketball hoop in the NBA is significantly larger than the outer circumference of the basketball. It's okay to give players some leeway, provided the game is designed correctly. Unfortunately, no console game comes to mind that is properly designed in how it utilizes aim assist; they all use way too much.

 

The fact that a mouse allows you to be more precise isn't always a good thing. A game like Halo CE loses a lot of it's appeal because aiming becomes TOO easy with a KBM (even with no aim assists). Games are forced to be faster and faster (with speed or kill times) in order to maintain a meaningful aiming skill gap. Making it easier for players to be more precise can actually have some negative impacts. There's a reason golf isn't played with scope-assisted rifles. It's nearly impossible to be perfectly precise in golf; does that make it a worse sport?

 

KBM is ideal for certain types of games, Controllers are ideal for other types of games. Both of them require the games to be designed properly to allow the chosen interface to work. Console games have struggled to get that last part right.

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I better get 3 extra KB+M set ups so I can play splitscreen H6 with my friends

 

Yet again demonstrating that you are a casual who literally only watches esports for shallow spectacle, drama, and stat-tracking. Supporting mouse aim for tournament play has nothing at all to do with split-screen. Just keep hiding behind the snark. Maybe people won't notice that you have nothing intelligent to say.

 

:walshy: 

 

 

When you admittedly don’t know what you are talking about, because you haven’t played,why do you bother talking?

 

I have played it and I have no interest in holding a controller extremely still so I can tilt it for marginally more precision in a console shooter that simply is not gun skill focused at all (say whatever you want about "higher levels of play"). I seriously question how viable that would be in a game with faster paced, less forgiving, twitchier fights (i.e. an average FPS). And how many people will actually care to use that consistently versus the increased cost of including that technology in already overpriced controllers? It seems mostly pointless and yet another complication to already convoluted console control schemes for a context in which people are already choosing couch comfort over precision.

 

I jumped to conclusions about your intent here, but given the history of these kinds of discussions on this site, I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption.

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First off, aim assists on consoles is not 100% necessary for a game to be viable.

 

*snip*

 

To your point here, think about grenades.  We've all gotten pretty good at throwing them over the years, and there's no aim assist involved in that.  Granted, you're talking about something that's got a bunch of buffer support built into it (bounces, blast radius, etc.), but it's not like when we're all running around the map without an enemy generating some magnetism that the reticle is spazzing around like crazy.

 

I think some degree of aim assist is required online unless you're going to be super strict about grouping people by latency, and even then maybe you'd get away with geometry/hitbox position lag compensation alone.

 

I'd be interested to play some older iterations of the series without aim assist.  H5's aim is still just too off for me, I'm pretty sure trying to hit something without aim assist in 5 would really make me rage.

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Does MadCatz make keyboards and mice?

 

They used to.  Their products weren't reputable.  Gimmicky, awkward builds.  Not ahead of the curve technologically either.

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@@BigShow36

 

The potentiometer under a controller’s thumbstick will never compare to the accuracy and precision of an optical sensor in a mouse. Console games absolutely do need aim assist. The hardware just isn’t inherently accurate enough. Controllers have a dead zone specifically because every jiggle of the stick would make your character look like it was having a seizure.

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I have played it and I have no interest in holding a controller extremely still so I can tilt it for marginally more precision in a console shooter that simply is not gun skill focused at all (say whatever you want about "higher levels of play"). I seriously question how viable that would be in a game with faster paced, less forgiving, twitchier fights (i.e. an average FPS). And how many people will actually care to use that consistently versus the increased cost of including that technology in already overpriced controllers? It seems mostly pointless and yet another complication to already convoluted console control schemes for a context in which people are already choosing couch comfort over precision.

 

I jumped to conclusions about your intent here, but given the history of these kinds of discussions on this site, I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption.

If you don’t have interest in it, that’s fine, that’s your prerogative. But, precision boost isn’t marginal. it’s a true 1to1 representation of player input. It’s is better than having an algorithm assume players intent and then variably apply itself depending on the weapon and range. THAT is convoluted.

 

I feel like you’re overstating the “need to stay still” because you can reset instantly with the push of a button.

 

I’m not sure how one can argue that Splatoon controls can’t hold up in twitchier fights when, the control method allows for much faster Reticle movement and target aquisition and higher precision. Take a look at a snipper montage.

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@@Mhunterjr

 

The controls may feel tight but you are not getting “true 1:1 representation of player input” with gyro sensors. If that was the case there would be no need for a “reset button”.

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Yet again demonstrating that you are a casual who literally only watches esports for shallow spectacle, drama, and stat-tracking. Supporting mouse aim for tournament play has nothing at all to do with split-screen. Just keep hiding behind the snark. Maybe people won't notice that you have nothing intelligent to say.

 

:walshy:

 

 

obviously, i was joking guy

 

but i guess when you view yourself as a hammer everything appears to be a nail

 

you are very smart, KB+M = better!

 

They used to.  Their products weren't reputable.  Gimmicky, awkward builds.  Not ahead of the curve technologically either.

i heard the only good thing they ever made was their fight sticks

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@@Mhunterjr

 

The controls may feel tight but you are not getting “true 1:1 representation of player input” with gyro sensors. If that was the case there would be no need for a “reset button”.

No you need a reset button to stay the camera while you reorient your controller.

 

It is the equivalent of picking your mouse up because you don't have enough space on your desk to move the cursor as far as you'd like.

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No you need a reset button to stay the camera while you reorient your controller.

It is the equivalent of picking your mouse up because you don't have enough space on your desk to move the cursor as far as you'd like.

Ah, I see. Even still, these types are sensors are “relative” as opposed to “absolute”, meaning that any innaccuracy in the motion detection gets compounded with every movement. I’m not saying they are unusable or even less accurate than analog sticks but they are most certainly not a “true 1:1 repsentation of player input”. That’s all.

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Word on the street is that the latest patch locked MP to 720p and improved input response.

 

Any takes on this?

 

Ah, I see. Even still, these types are sensors are “relative” as opposed to “absolute”, meaning that any innaccuracy in the motion detection gets compounded with every movement. I’m not saying they are unusable or even less accurate than analog sticks but they are most certainly not a “true 1:1 repsentation of player input”. That’s all.

I see what you are saying. I feel like any inaccuracy is minimal enough to be considered negligible in this case.

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-snip-

 

Load up Halo Ce.  Disable grenades, put everyone on the same team, enable friendly fire, have at it.

 

See how long you can play before wanting to rip your hair out.

 

No aim assist might "work" in Call of Duty because the players are all slow and grounded, and the nature of the weapons (automatic spray, instantly killing) means missed shots due to lack of precision don't matter that much anyways.  To use that as an argument that aim assist isn't required in shooters in general is a bit silly.

 

There aren't many cases where controllers are the clear-cut ideal choice in my opinion.  I do have a controller plugged into my PC for Fighting games, Twin-Stick shooters like Furi and some Platformers that are particularly heavy on button presses, but other than that I rarely ever touch it.

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Word on the street is that the latest patch locked MP to 720p and improved input response.

 

Any takes on this?

 

I think it feels better, could be headcasing.

 

Has anyone used local server?

 

Been watching this page: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/6e35355aecdf4fd0acdaee3cc4156fd4/topics/halo-5-local-server-official-thread/d5596cbd-3b76-4d70-83d0-f1e804fac1db/posts

 

They've been having issues deploying it.

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Load up Halo Ce.  Disable grenades, put everyone on the same team, enable friendly fire, have at it.

 

See how long you can play before wanting to rip your hair out.

 

No aim assist might "work" in Call of Duty because the players are all slow and grounded, and the nature of the weapons (automatic spray, instantly killing) means missed shots due to lack of precision don't matter that much anyways.  To use that as an argument that aim assist isn't required in shooters in general is a bit silly.

 

There aren't many cases where controllers are the clear-cut ideal choice in my opinion.  I do have a controller plugged into my PC for Fighting games, Twin-Stick shooters like Furi and some Platformers that are particularly heavy on button presses, but other than that I rarely ever touch it.

 

 

To those discussing, when we say no aim assist is it just assumed that there is no bullet magnetism either? For your example using CE, which I don't think BigShow was gg at, you also have no bullet magnetism which to me is the more helpful factor in CE. I'd be curious how it would feel keeping the magnetism while removing aim assist.

 

I think a game that didn't have regenerating shields/healths would be more tolerable, along with weapons that have quick kill times, so Halo definitely feels pretty bad without it.

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Has the game been laggy for anyone else since the update has been released? Something feels different.

Yea my first game on had that weird stutter/teleport lag and it persisted every other game. I've never had lag like it before and it was definitely never that often.

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To those discussing, when we say no aim assist is it just assumed that there is no bullet magnetism either? For your example using CE, which I don't think BigShow was gg at, you also have no bullet magnetism which to me is the more helpful factor in CE. I'd be curious how it would feel keeping the magnetism while removing aim assist.

 

I think a game that didn't have regenerating shields/healths would be more tolerable, along with weapons that have quick kill times, so Halo definitely feels pretty bad without it.

 

I had assumed we meant aim assist mechanics in general because of the context of the discussion.

 

Bullet Magnetism is still intended to make up for the lack of controller precision and isn't typically seen in PC shooters.

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Load up Halo Ce.  Disable grenades, put everyone on the same team, enable friendly fire, have at it.

 

See how long you can play before wanting to rip your hair out.

 

I have. Of course it's frustrating and Halo CE is not an ideal candidate for zero aim assists. All I said was that a game doesn't necessarily need aim assist to be viable. That doesn't mean every console game would be viable without it, just that a blanket statement that every console shooter needs aim assist is false.

 

Back to the Halo CE example: play that way for a week straight and then come back to me. You might be surprised at how your aim improves after being challenged so dramatically. You might be surprised that the game is actually playable that way. Do we expect someone whose only ever played putt-putt golf to be able to immediately go shoot par? Of course not; it's frustrating as hell at first. But at this point, we have absolutely no real evidence to show that a well-designed shooter can't be played on consoles without aim assists.

 

 

No aim assist might "work" in Call of Duty because the players are all slow and grounded, and the nature of the weapons (automatic spray, instantly killing) means missed shots due to lack of precision don't matter that much anyways.  To use that as an argument that aim assist isn't required in shooters in general is a bit silly.

 

 

But that is my entire argument. Certain games would play better without aim assists using a controller. Aim Assists are not always required in every console game to make the game competitive and even enjoyable. The high precision of a mouse also impacts how "competitive" games on PC must be designed.

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I have. Of course it's frustrating and Halo CE is not an ideal candidate for zero aim assists. All I said was that a game doesn't necessarily need aim assist to be viable. That doesn't mean every console game would be viable without it, just that a blanket statement that every console shooter needs aim assist is false.

 

Back to the Halo CE example: play that way for a week straight and then come back to me. You might be surprised at how your aim improves after being challenged so dramatically. You might be surprised that the game is actually playable that way. Do we expect someone whose only ever played putt-putt golf to be able to immediately go shoot par? Of course not; it's frustrating as hell at first. But at this point, we have absolutely no real evidence to show that a well-designed shooter can't be played on consoles without aim assists.

 

 

 

But that is my entire argument. Certain games would play better without aim assists using a controller. Aim Assists are not always required in every console game to make the game competitive and even enjoyable. The high precision of a mouse also impacts how "competitive" games on PC must be designed.

Except CE had some of the highest aim assist in the series.Bullet magnetism around the head was buggy causing it be very hard to finish off kills.Edit: Unless you're using the 343 model and referring to something different than i think you are.

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