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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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First of all, Ghost said they specifically changed the aiming. I don't know why people are just throwing this out of the equation. He admitted it.

 

Secondly, the resolution thing is hearsay and completely unfalsifiable without a huge amount of testing so it hardly matters anyway, but I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that it's reasonable to assume 1) H5 did not start using a FAR greater amount of resources for the same maps on full release as even the worst graphics cards in history don't blow up when moving from 720 to sometimes not-even-quite-1080, 2) that if H5 is overloaded running a blank map and a skybox, then that's fucking hilarious, and 3) that something that's never happened before on any platform, the lagged response due to system stress, is probably not happening here as we would see frame drops before we saw a drop in reticule response.

 

Keep in mind that the problem with the aiming is not necessarily lag. The problem is the mechanics of the aiming.

I understand that the aiming definitely changed between beta and 1.0, but the point I and I believe others are trying to make is that H5:F feels better than playing on the console, and something has to be causing that. A difference in hardware just seems far more likely to me than modifications to input code on the PC, especially considering the poor state of mouse input, which feels like a total after kludge compared to other modern FPS.

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Personally, I believe they purposely induced artificial difficult aim to offset their piss easy to use weapons. I'd say I'm wearing a tinfoil hat, but then again we live in a world where microtransaction based matchmaking is a patented concept.

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First of all, Ghost said they specifically changed the aiming. I don't know why people are just throwing this out of the equation. He admitted it.

 

Secondly, the resolution thing is hearsay and completely unfalsifiable without a huge amount of testing so it hardly matters anyway, but I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that it's reasonable to assume 1) H5 did not start using a FAR greater amount of resources for the same maps on full release as even the worst graphics cards in history don't blow up when moving from 720 to sometimes not-even-quite-1080, 2) that if H5 is overloaded running a blank map and a skybox, then that's fucking hilarious, and 3) that something that's never happened before on any platform, the lagged response due to system stress, is probably not happening here as we would see frame drops before we saw a drop in reticule response. 

 

Keep in mind that the problem with the aiming is not necessarily lag. The problem is the mechanics of the aiming. 

 

I understand what you are trying to say, but this all started because of purported differences in aim across multiple hardware platforms. If the aiming is better on more powerful machines, then the likelihood that the aiming is tied to asset management in some form is very high. We do know that from beta to full release that dynamic resolution was introduced. The bone has to manage the displayed resolution based on what load is being applied to the cpu/gpu in order to maintain a 60fps experience. A more powerful machine is going to do that better, and for whatever reason, the aiming experience is better on those machines.

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I guess I should post the heavy aim update since the topic is back on that. The closest we'll get to an answer other than what he mentioned is they'll continue monitoring feedback for other heavy aim causes and it could be external factors like latency for example.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/6e35355aecdf4fd0acdaee3cc4156fd4/topics/halo-5-hot-fix---may-31/36afa419-9d7f-44a8-ad48-a304affcd287/posts

As a bonus, he posted this two months later. It's solved? Oh, well. We'll never get a real answer.
 

In May, a hotfix was released to address “heavy aim” – an issue that was largely brought to the forefront and ultimately solved thanks to thorough investigations and feedback from players.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/summer-sizzle

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It is not the community manager at 343’s job to sell 1X’s. His studio doesn’t even have a game slated for that console. He gains nothing from saying that. It’s almost like he actually feels that way or something.

“That thing that was a problem before, feels like less of a problem now on the new Xbox one x”.

 

Do you actually read the things you type and believe them? Yes he does want to praise the new Xbox. No it’s not his job but he certainly isn’t going to trash the new console, now is he? He does gain something from it. Being in the good graces of his employer.

 

It’s almost like you suddenly lost all critical thinking abilities.

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And this is the guy some of y'all think keeps this place interesting lmao

It’s almost as if no one gives a shit about your drive by commentary.

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Make him stop quoting me guys help

Why don’t you try interacting and participating in a conversation?

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No

So stop posting then please? I mean, this isn’t your personal fucking blog. No one cares what you have to say if it isn’t relevant to the discussion.

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Who is throwing that out? Changing the aiming does not equal “increasing the input responce”. It means changing the acceleration curves and aiming assists.

Well what did I just say at the end? It's not necessarily lag. 

 

Again, a bottleneck that is caused by code can cripple the most powerful of systems. You are assuming that the issue would only arise in instances where the hardware is being taxed by the scene on display. I’m saying that that’s an irrational assumption.

 

What does "cripple" mean if not 1) burn up resources, or 2) cause a crash/glitch?

 

The scenario you speak of WOULD NOT result in framedrops, because their system is designed to keep framerate static at the expense of the scene. But that doesn’t mean that other, invisible systems won’t start operating a below their target.

 

Then if the system were under extreme load, we would see the game pixelate massively. It doesn't. 

 

And again, you are pulling an invisible pink unicorn on me. 

 

"It pretty much HAS to be a hardware problem somewhere, with some system I can't elaborate on." "Why?" "...Because!" 

 

Well then you are conflating two different issues. He said the X might address heavy aim- which is the result of fluctuating input response.

 

Well now, I have long said that what other people consider "heavy aim" seems to be different than what I consider to be heavy aim. My evidence is Halo 3 - almost nobody complains about the aiming in that game in this community, but I think it's absolute horse shit and is the #1 reason I quit out of every H3 game on MCC. And that's a result of programmed mechanics, not hardware. 

 

He didn't say that the X would make the aiming mechanics feel better. Those will obviously stay fucked, regardless of the hardware, unless they change the mechanics.

 

Alright. 

There absolutely IS a lag component to the issue. 

 

Prove it. 

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I understand that the aiming definitely changed between beta and 1.0, but the point I and I believe others are trying to make is that H5:F feels better than playing on the console, and something has to be causing that. A difference in hardware just seems far more likely to me than modifications to input code on the PC, especially considering the poor state of mouse input, which feels like a total after kludge compared to other modern FPS.

 

It is not more likely because the other Halos on MCC don't suffer the same problem. If it was a hardware issue, then every game would be affected, because every game runs through that same hardware. 

 

And why exactly is it not feasible that there would be a discrepancy between the aiming mechanics on console and the aiming mechanics on PC when the equipment isn't standardized and the devs don't know what controller/driver/etc. is going to be used to play H5?

 

I understand what you are trying to say, but this all started because of purported differences in aim across multiple hardware platforms. If the aiming is better on more powerful machines, then the likelihood that the aiming is tied to asset management in some form is very high. We do know that from beta to full release that dynamic resolution was introduced. The bone has to manage the displayed resolution based on what load is being applied to the cpu/gpu in order to maintain a 60fps experience. A more powerful machine is going to do that better, and for whatever reason, the aiming experience is better on those machines.

 

To be perfectly frank, someone can loan me a 1X and I'll be able to tell within five seconds whether or not it actually has improved the aiming. As I said earlier, people swore up and down that first a H5 update and then the acceleration and deadzone options fixed heavy aim.

 

Turns out they were full of shit both times. 

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The amount of input lag in Halo 5 is a TINY TINY issue compared to the fucked sensitivity curves and whatever else they did to make it so shitty.

 

The main problem with the aiming in Halo 5 is 100% not hardware related. If it was, you'd see worse aiming on taxing maps with lots going on, but we have the same shitty aiming on an empty map looking at a wall or the skybox. The hardware is not getting taxed there.

 

If the Xbox One X lowers the input latency in Halo 5 you still have to deal with Halo 5's aiming system. No thanks.

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As an aside, the Turok: Dinosaur Hunter reboot on Steam has the most perfect aiming mechanics I've ever seen in a game. 

 

If you want an example of how aiming should feel, play that game. 

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It is not more likely because the other Halos on MCC don't suffer the same problem. If it was a hardware issue, then every game would be affected, because every game runs through that same hardware.

 

And why exactly is it not feasible that there would be a discrepancy between the aiming mechanics on console and the aiming mechanics on PC when the equipment isn't standardized and the devs don't know what controller/driver/etc. is going to be used to play H5?

 

 

To be perfectly frank, someone can loan me a 1X and I'll be able to tell within five seconds whether or not it actually has improved the aiming. As I said earlier, people swore up and down that first a H5 update and then the acceleration and deadzone options fixed heavy aim.

 

Turns out they were full of shit both times.

On the MCC side, we are talking about software that was originally written to run on older hardware, so I would hope that any changes made to run on the X wouldn't introduce issues in sub systems like input handling.

 

As far as the discrepancy in handling input on console vs. PC, this is purely speculation, but since we're all guessing here, why would we see changes in the input handling implementation for the controller on PC, but poor mouse input handling. And if it wasn't something that the X was hardware limited on, why not try and role those changes back into the console version?

 

Like I said, we're all just guessing here, I'm just throwing in my two cents. FWIW, I'm not completely talking out of my ass, I've been a professional "jack of all trades" developer for the last 7 years. My job is pretty evenly split between mobile, backend, and embedded programming. My only game dev experience is hobbiest level, but again, I'm just trying to come at this like any other piece of software I've worked with.

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Prove it

 

Play the game on Xbox with a controller. Then play the game on PC with a controller.

 

It's a night and day difference, despite everything being the same, except the hardware.

 

Im not sure what other proof you need. Yes your definition of heavy aim appears to be different from everyone else's. There are 2 issues with h5s aim. Fluctuating Input response time, and weird sensitivity curves. The former is what everyone refers to as heavy aim, and it goes away on pc. It apparently goes away on X. The latter will always be a problem.

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On the MCC side, we are talking about software that was originally written to run on older hardware, so I would hope that any changes made to run on the X wouldn't introduce issues in sub systems like input handling.

I already made the argument that we have no evidence that the XB1 is under tremendous load because of the dynamic resolution change. But I've got people arguing that invisible systems are causing the fucked aiming. 

 

As far as the discrepancy in handling input on console vs. PC, this is purely speculation, but since we're all guessing here, why would we see changes in the input handling implementation for the controller on PC, but poor mouse input handling. And if it wasn't something that the X was hardware limited on, why not try and role those changes back into the console version?

You know what my answer to that is going to be. 

 

Like I said, we're all just guessing here, I'm just throwing in my two cents. FWIW, I'm not completely talking out of my ass, I've been a professional "jack of all trades" developer for the last 7 years. My job is pretty evenly split between mobile, backend, and embedded programming. My only game dev experience is hobbiest level, but again, I'm just trying to come at this like any other piece of software I've worked with.

 

That doesn't stop Occam's Razor from factoring in here. 

 

As I said and will keep saying, they said they changed the aiming. Because of this, I'm inclined to believe that they changed the aiming. 

 

Play the game on Xbox with a controller. Then play the game on PC with a controller.

 

It's a night and day difference, despite everything being the same, except the hardware.

I said to prove it was input lag.

 

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As I said and will keep saying, they said they changed the aiming. Because of this, I'm inclined to believe that they changed the aiming. 

I've thought about this a lot.  Why would it be so hard to go back to the aiming code that was used during the beta?  It could possibly be that the API to the XB1's hardware changed from the time they had the beta. If they were calling hardware drivers and those drivers themselves were updated, that would be out of 343's control, and they would not be able to revert back to older versions of hardware driver APIs. I would almost certainly think that to get through the certification process you have to be using the latest builds of the XB1 hardware API. So, maybe it's not as simple as going back to the old code.  Maybe the old code yields the same results because the underlying hardware drivers themselves changed. If this were the case, they would have to change the way they are using the underlying hardware drivers and re-write major portions of the aiming code all together. Just my theory from working with hardware drivers and seeing how much they can change in a years time.      

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I already made the argument that we have no evidence that the XB1 is under tremendous load because of the dynamic resolution change. But I've got people arguing that invisible systems are causing the fucked aiming.

 

 

You know what my answer to that is going to be.

 

 

That doesn't stop Occam's Razor from factoring in here.

 

As I said and will keep saying, they said they changed the aiming. Because of this, I'm inclined to believe that they changed the aiming.

 

 

I said to prove it was input lag.

 

What else do you call it when the cursor doesn't respond to your input?

 

We dont need to argue semantics. The mechanics are the same regardless of the hardware, yet changing hardware changes the aim response. What more needs to be proven here?

 

We know they "changed the aiming". No one disputes this. But the aiming system is the same on all 3 platforms. Why would the effects of this change be different across hardware if the issue isn't performance related?

 

Either the pc and X version use different code for the aiming system. Or more powerful hardware can run the code better. One of these options makes sense.

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“That thing that was a problem before, feels like less of a problem now on the new Xbox one x”.

 

Do you actually read the things you type and believe them? Yes he does want to praise the new Xbox. No it’s not his job but he certainly isn’t going to trash the new console, now is he? He does gain something from it. Being in the good graces of his employer.

 

It’s almost like you suddenly lost all critical thinking abilities.

How funny that you would accuse me of a lack of critical thinking after that post and that stance on the issue.

 

No you’re right. A guy at 343 whose job is to communicate with the community would randomly bring up a black eye on his employer’s track record so he can lie about a $500 piece of equipment that his employer isn’t making a game for, fixing a problem that his company has already deemed fixed, all in the name of being a good employee. I’m glad I thought that one through. Thanks Boyo.

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If they were calling hardware drivers and those drivers themselves were updated, that would be out of 343's control, and they would not be able to revert back to older versions of hardware driver APIs.

The mechanics of aiming are just variables, though. Even if the APIs change, that just means the variables need to be tweaked in a different way.

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