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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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OS 1,2,3 refers to how long it decays. For the other powerups it's simply duration.

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The spread is lower, but that doesn't really matter with these bullet hose type weapons. Show me how the H5 SMG is better at range than the CE AR please. Just what is your issue with the CE AR? People here that actually play CE have already told you that the weapon isn't useless. It's more of a niche weapon as opposed to later games' ARs, but not useless.

 

I have much better things to do today than put together some shitty SMG vs. AR video for you, sorry. My advice - play the games and prepare to be amazed. Also, I actually play CE (have also watched plenty of other good players play CE) and I'm claiming it is useless. If the only argument you can make is WELL THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU SO TAKE THAT, well, you lost.

 

The H5 shotgun has extremely long effective range, see video posted above. H5's PP generously tracks players across the entire map on Bigship. The H5 BPR drains shields in 2 shots, allowing for an almost instant-kill combo similar to the PP. And again, you have to consider how easy to use these weapons are.

 

So does the H1 shotgun, the H5 plasma pistol takes much longer to charge up and is worthless in single-shot mode, and how are you now oblivious to the existence of plasma stun?

 

So? With the H5 sniper you can miss by at least a foot and still get a headshot. And your calculation is wrong. CE Sniper: 0.5s firing delay. H5 Sniper: 0.82s. So how do you fit 0.5s twice into 0.82s? Enlighten me.

 

Really? I guess I'll have to settle for getting off a mere two shots to your one. I still win.

 

Another amazing strawman brought to you by Larry Sizemore.

 

I'm starting to think nobody on this site knows what a strawman is.

 

 

Halo 5 shotty is better no questions asked

Halo 5 sniper has a slower FR, but at least for most of the games life it fucking aims for you, only the nerf made it closer to the H1 in terms of difficulty.

H5 Peashooter is extremely quick and has a massive tracking area, you’re halarious.

H5 Plasma rifle is 50000x better than every other one this is so fucking obvious.

Have you even played these games dude?

 

I'm asking the question right now. Actually it's not a question, it's a statement. Halo 1 shotgun is better.

 

Second statement makes no sense.

 

H1 "peashooter" is even quicker than the H5 one (in both single fire and overcharge mode). You're hilarious.

 

Fourth statement contains zero reasoning.

 

At this point you guys are doing almost as good a job at driving this franchise into the side of a cliff as 343 is.

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I really don't get this game.

 

I've lost multiple hours of work many times.  It's infuriating and stupid.  Fortunately, a while back they integrated a Recovery feature that works more often than not.

 

Basu already answered the question about the OS variants.  They're mostly useless competitively.  I've only ever used OS 1.

 

Is there a reason you need to use Weapon Pads?  You can place any weapon normally without using a weapon pad, and it won't have the announcement or indicator.  It's possible to set up Powerups with static respawn times also.  @@Sitri has a prefab you can use.  I haven't used it myself, so you'd have to talk to him if you have any questions.  He also has a prefab for H1 style spawning.  You can get both of those here - https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/forge-object-groups?lastModifiedFilter=Everything&sortOrder=BookmarkCount&page=1&gamertag=SitriStahl

I know there are other people working on static spawn times for all weapons, but that hasn't been released yet.  There are ways to create a lot of the things from previous games using scripting.  There's one person in particular that's been working on deployable equipment, and recently released Flare.  It's not something that specifically excites me for competitive play, but it shows what's possible in H5. 

I can't speak to whether Health Packs in particular can be replicated in this game, unfortunately.  Scripting doesn't really interest me, so I haven't spent any time learning it.

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Not possible with Halo's online population. Halo's population would need to be like 10X's what it is to support party restricted match making and still find games in a reasonable amount of time - especially outside of NA.

 

The only game that is able to pull this off in my experience is League of Legends.

 

Game developers have to design their game around worst case scenarios, not unrealistic fantasy scenarios where the game has 10 million players online during off peak hours.

 

 

No. It doesnt take 10 million concurrent players to prioritize similar party makeup... what are you talking abojt?

 

Halos population was way more than enough to support party matching at launch. Then if you are smart you loosen restrictions dynamically as the population fluctuates off-peak and rigidly as population declines overtime.

 

Not only that but decline would be slower of matchmaking was better. You don't just program for worst case scenarios- you capitalize on the situation when it's at its peak.

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No. It doesnt take 10 million concurrent players to prioritize similar party makeup... what are you talking abojt?

 

Halos population was way more than enough to support party matching at launch. Then if you are smart you loosen restrictions dynamically as the population fluctuates off-peak and rigidly as population declines overtime.

 

Not only that but decline would be slower of matchmaking was better. You don't just program for worst case scenarios- you capitalize on the situation when it's at its peak.

Maybe they thought H5 was going to tank at launch (which it kind of did).

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I've lost multiple hours of work many times.  It's infuriating and stupid.  Fortunately, a while back they integrated a Recovery feature that works more often than not.

 

Basu already answered the question about the OS variants.  They're mostly useless competitively.  I've only ever used OS 1.

 

Is there a reason you need to use Weapon Pads?  You can place any weapon normally without using a weapon pad, and it won't have the announcement or indicator.  It's possible to set up Powerups with static respawn times also.  @@Sitri has a prefab you can use.  I haven't used it myself, so you'd have to talk to him if you have any questions.  He also has a prefab for H1 style spawning.  You can get both of those here - https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/forge-object-groups?lastModifiedFilter=Everything&sortOrder=BookmarkCount&page=1&gamertag=SitriStahl

I know there are other people working on static spawn times for all weapons, but that hasn't been released yet.  There are ways to create a lot of the things from previous games using scripting.  There's one person in particular that's been working on deployable equipment, and recently released Flare.  It's not something that specifically excites me for competitive play, but it shows what's possible in H5. 

I can't speak to whether Health Packs in particular can be replicated in this game, unfortunately.  Scripting doesn't really interest me, so I haven't spent any time learning it.

The Halo 1 spawning can't really be replicated in this game. Turns out that Halo 5 determines spawn location at the time of death, and not as a player is spawning in.

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The Halo 1 spawning can't really be replicated in this game. Turns out that Halo 5 determines spawn location at the time of death, and not as a player is spawning in.

Wait what? That seems silly with how fast you move in this game the landscape for what constitutes an appropriate spawn can be totally different in those 8 seconds.

 

Is there a good reason for this that I am missing?

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Wait what? That seems silly with how fast you move in this game the landscape for what constitutes an appropriate spawn can be totally different in those 8 seconds.

 

Is there a good reason for this that I am missing?

That's the only explanation that comes to mind as to why my spawn scripting doesn't work. When I performed tests, my teammate would spawn at a random location if I wasn't standing within the spawn point's radius when he died.

I mean, it's still predictable but it doesn't work how it did in the first game so I never looked any further into it.

 

Health packs also don't work. Something about health recharge is either broken when changed via scripts, or it's tied to something else I haven't figured out.

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Maybe they thought H5 was going to tank at launch (which it kind of did).

Tanked for a halo game, sure. Still it had a healthy multiplayer population for at least until the updates stopped.

 

It makes no sense to have a bad MM solution no matter what kind of sales you expect. That just increases the speed of decline.

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Halos population was way more than enough to support party matching at launch.

 

Uh, no it wasn't.

 

2 weeks after launch I couldn't even find an FFA game. I have NEVER been ranked in FFA because I've never been able to play 10 placement matches in a month.

 

Vetoed made his video about struggling to find games shortly after the game launched.

 

I've made videos showing I couldn't find games in ANY playlist not too long after launch.

 

There is literally video proof showing that you're wrong.

 

Just because bronze-gold ranked North American players could find plenty of games shortly after launch doesn't mean others had the same experience.

 

OS 1,2,3 refers to how long it decays. For the other powerups it's simply duration.

 

Wow that's... WHY?!

 

I guess having an OS that takes like 2 hours to expire might be useful for Warzone if you decide to walk from one side of the map to the other?

 

Is there a reason you need to use Weapon Pads?  You can place any weapon normally without using a weapon pad, and it won't have the announcement or indicator.

 

Because I don't want to spend 5 hours screwing around with scripts and other random crap just to put a weapon on the map. The weapon pads look cool, presents the weapon on the map nicely and it's just so simple.

 

It should literally be place weapon - done. That's it. I shouldn't be required to jump through hoops in order to set static weapon times.

 

It's ridiculous. 343 KNOWS we wanted static weapon spawns because they KNOW that we jumped through hoops in order to do the same thing in Halo 3.

 

Instead they've given us this stupid system that places giant indicators all over your screen, constant announcements and incredibly - GIVES AWAY PLAYER LOCATIONS!

 

I could forgive telling players when a rocket launcher is spawning, but then to tell the entire map "PLAYER 1 IS HERE GO KILL HIM" just blows my mind.

 

I'm sure there's a way to do it, but I don't want to spend hours of my time researching how it's done and then trying to replicate it through some convoluted method and then have to spend time testing it to make sure it actually works properly and doesn't have bugs.

 

All I want to do is spend 2 minutes in Forge, place a few things down in different locations and then test it with other players to see how it plays and then I can delete/move/edit it easily if it doesn't play well. It doesn't make much sense to spend so much time replicating static power up spawns only to realise the map doesn't flow well and then undo it all.

 

Thanks for the power up prefabs, I'll have a look.

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Uh, no it wasn't.

 

2 weeks after launch I couldn't even find an FFA game. I have NEVER been ranked in FFA because I've never been able to play 10 placement matches in a month.

 

Vetoed made his video about struggling to find games shortly after the game launched.

 

I've made videos showing I couldn't find games in ANY playlist not too long after launch.

 

There is literally video proof showing that you're wrong.

 

Just because bronze-gold ranked North American players could find plenty of games shortly after launch doesn't mean others had the same experience.

 

 

I wonder when you're going to just accept that you live in a region that is functionally irrelevant to this conversation and no decent match-making system can feasibly be designed around regions where no one is fucking playing the game. Your evidence "proves" something everyone already knows, which is that no one in your region is or was playing the game. But, yeah, it needs to be designed with YOU personally in mind. Of course. No proven system can ever be used that might negatively impact the handful of people who tried to play the game in your area.

 

​Not to mention the obvious fact that FFA (which is complete ass in this game anyway) has NOTHING AT ALL to do with party matching. lmfao.

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I wonder when you're going to just accept that you live in a region that is functionally irrelevant to this conversation and no decent match-making system can feasibly be designed around regions where no one is fucking playing the game. Your evidence "proves" something everyone already knows, which is that no one in your region is or was playing the game. But, yeah, it needs to be designed with YOU personally in mind. Of course. No proven system can ever be used that might negatively impact the handful of people who tried to play the game in your area.

 

​Not to mention the obvious fact that FFA (which is complete ass in this game anyway) has NOTHING AT ALL to do with party matching. lmfao.

 

You realise that Halo games existed before Halo 5 yeah? And they had decent population sizes for years after launch.

 

Also, I said ALL playlists were shitty, not just FFA.

 

And players in NA also complained that were highly ranked and couldn't find games.

 

Well done on being wrong.

 

Here's an idea... Try to follow along, I'll use simple words for you.

 

MAYBE, just MAYBE, the Oceania region has a low Halo 5 player count because the match making algorithms were too damn restrictive (Proven by the fact that NA players also had issues). Maybe a huge amount of players gave up on playing the game when they couldn't find matches, especially considering that other games pull it off so flawlessly.

 

Maybe the player count here was low because players that bought the game expecting all the usual game modes to be in the game like Infection and Big Team Battle were disappointed when those modes weren't in the game so they stopped playing?

 

Maybe the fact that Oceanic players were forced into playing against people in this region and not given the option to play against players in other regions meant that players that normally played during off peak hours returned the game because they could only find matches during peak hours?

 

What argument are you even trying to make? "Fuck you, I got mine, so screw you?"

 

Because that's the only way I can possibly interpret it.

 

Other games exist outside of Halo with far lower player counts, yet I can still find games. Amazing, isn't it?

 

For example, in Quake Champions I can find games. It takes a few minutes to find a game and often there's a decent skill gap between players, but guess what? I don't care, because the game is fun and at least I can freakin' play it.

 

I don't care that the opposite team has a player that goes 40-5. You know why? Because I learn from that dude that is tearing apart our entire team and that makes me want to get better. I'd prefer to get destroyed in a game than stare at a searching screen for an hour before giving up.

 

If you just let players play the damn game they'll get better naturally. If they can't play at all they will return the game for a game that actually works.

 

343 has screwed up their match making system because they're not adjusting it for each region. And guess what? Not even the NA population could sustain the amount of playlists Halo 5 has AND have party restrictions AND have ping restrictions AND have skill restrictions.

 

League of Legends can get away with it because there's only a handful of match making playlists AND it's the most popular game in the world.

 

Halo 5 has more playlists in Warzone ALONE than LoL has in the entire game... Halo 5 might get away with party restrictions in NA only if it had like 4 playlists overall instead of like 20 or whatever ridiculous number it is.

 

- Edit -

 

Would also like to add that despite the low population sizes of Australia and New Zealand, our Halo community used to be absolutely massive despite that.

 

Hell, at one point we probably had tournament attendance on par with tournament attendance in Europe. Halo used to have a VERY loyal following in this region. Probably because the game actually worked...

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Okay but not finding games in H5 is because of the stupid ass connectivity issues NOT party restrictions in the "competitive" playlist. Bottom line is that the HCS playlist NEEDS party restrictions or it's just a bullshit playlist. Ranks are determined by who plays in parties not skill. H5 has issues matching people in low pop playlists due to its own reason and it literally has nothing to do with party restrictions.

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Uh, no it wasn't.

 

2 weeks after launch I couldn't even find an FFA game. I have NEVER been ranked in FFA because I've never been able to play 10 placement matches in a month.

 

Vetoed made his video about struggling to find games shortly after the game launched.

 

I've made videos showing I couldn't find games in ANY playlist not too long after launch.

 

There is literally video proof showing that you're wrong.

 

Just because bronze-gold ranked North American players could find plenty of games shortly after launch doesn't mean others had the same experience.

.

Wait wait wait a minute. So because vetoed couldn't get a match in the least played ranked playlist (mainly because the MM systems is fucked up- which is what we are discussing) you consider that proof that there weren't enough players for party restrictions in popular playlists like Warzone and Team Arena?

 

Ok.

 

I never considered FFA MM results to be a good metric for party restriction viability- considering you search by yourself... but that's just me.

 

I'm not sure where you live, but there were enough people in UK, NA and parts of Central America for several months after launch. Your local experience doesn't mean that they were right to fuck the MM system for areas that had decent population. How does that make any sense?

 

The system should scale dynamically based on a given servers population. If someone was searching with a party in America during peak hours there is no reason the system shouldn't search for a similar American party. If someone was searching in Australia at 3AM, then it should obviously be less strict, so that Australians can play the game.

 

It makes NO sense to make a system that is bad for everyone all the time, just because some places have a low population. That's terrible logic. Also the competitive playlist should always have rigid restrictions.

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Bottom line is that the HCS playlist NEEDS party restrictions or it's just a bullshit playlist.

 

I wrote an article on this very subject if you'd like to read it. http://pyroteq.com/halo-5-party-solo-queue/

 

I'll go into even further detail here though just to drive the point home.

 

Match making has always been bullshit. Didn't we all agree with this over a decade ago?

 

Match making exists as a way of getting players into a game quickly. That should be the primary goal. If you're REALLY after 100% fair games between even teams then custom games exist. Invite a team of similar skill level and setup some proper scrims. I remember in Halo 2 after the ranks were reset my account sat on level 1 for months because all I did was play customs and I had no interest in playing match making.

 

You are blinded by nostalgia if you think any previous Halo game had a good match making system.

 

The Halo 2 match making system people go on about as if it was the greatest invention since vegemite on toast? Yeah, great match making system... Matching Aussies up with Yanks so players were playing on 250ms+ ping...

 

The Halo series previously got away with more restrictive match making because they held onto their community longer and Bungie forgot that latency existed.

 

There's many different factors the match making system has to account for. The priority should be:

 

1. Latency.

2. Skill.

3. Party.

 

Notice the emphasis I put on latency. This is THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR. No amount of skill can make up for huge latency advantages. No one wants to play an FPS where they're being shot through walls and watching rockets go through people constantly.

 

Many North American players probably don't realise how shitty the Halo 2 match making experience was for players living outside of the US, including Europe.

 

Since the USA has always had the majority of Halo players you guys haven't really had to worry about latency because even if you had to play on non-NA host, that would probably be like 1/20 games.

 

For example, when I would search for games in Halo 3 I'd always make sure Good Connection Only was selected in the options - BTW, you're welcome - because if we didn't there would be a 50/50 chance we'd pull host off you and then YOU would get to experience a tiny example of what it's like to play an FPS with 250ms ping.

 

H5 has issues matching people in low pop playlists due to its own reason and it literally has nothing to do with party restrictions.

 

Of course party restrictions would make a difference.

 

Lets say 1337Spa7anSlay3r is an Onyx ranked player in Team Arena living in England.

 

Now these numbers are completely made up, but lets just all use our imaginations.

 

So lets pretend at 2pm in England there are roughly 10,000 Halo 5 players online in Europe - spread across the metric fuck tonne of redundant playlists.

 

There's 1000 players online in Team Arena.

 

Now, of those 1000 players online in Team Arena, the vast majority of those players fall between Bronze and Gold. Obviously we don't want to match an Onyx player against Gold players because regardless of team or no team, those players will get destroyed.

 

I don't know the exact skill ratio, but lets say for arguments sake only the top 10% of players are ranked Diamond and above, so of those 1000 players searching for Team Arena only about 100 of those players are ranked Diamond, Onyx or Champion.

 

So 1337Spa7anSlay3r has 100 different players they can match with, right?

 

Well no. Each Team Arena game has 8 players, so that's only 12 sets of 8 players 1337Spa7anSlay3r can match with - Don't forget, many of those games are still running and some of those games can still go on for another 12 minutes so obviously if 1337Spa7anSlay3r hits the search button he's not going to find any of those players.

 

Already we can see that 1337Spa7anSlay3r is probably going to have to wait a few minutes in order to find a game in Team Arena because there's only 12 games running at once. The wait time would probably be something like 2 minutes, assuming each game started 1 minute apart.

 

Now imagine if 1337Spa7anSlay3r could only match with other solo players.

 

Again, we'll make up some figures, lets pretend there's an even split of players in each category. 25% solo, 25% duo, 25% threes and 25% fours. The fours can only match with other fours, so awesome, that means of 100 players in that skill bracket they have a whopping total of 25 possibly players to match against. That's 6 total teams and a possibility of ONLY THREE 4v4 MATCHES BEING PLAYED AT ONCE.

 

If we assume that before party restrictions the wait time was 2 minutes, well now it's 8 minutes. That's not even remotely acceptable considering the search time would probably be longer than the bloody match length. This is how you destroy your games online population.

 

The other players don't have much better luck. Teams of 2 can only match with 2+2 or 2+1+1. Teams of 3 can only match against 3+1 and solo players get the best deal able to match with 1+1+1+1, 2+1+1 and 3+1. But even in this scenario 1337Spa7anSlay3r only has 75 possible players to match against. That's only 9 4v4 games running at once that 1337Spa7anSlay3r can search for, many of those games are going to be already in progress.

 

This is what you're suggesting if you say the game needs strict party restrictions in match making.

 

Oh, and BTW - THESE ARE GENEROUS FIGURES! Halo's population was around 20,000 in 24 hours DECEMBER 2016.

 

The idea that only players outside of NA would experience huge increases in match making search times is false.

 

Yes, BTW I know my math is slightly off because I didn't include decimal point remainders. I've kept it as simple as possible.

 

Also, I've said this numerous times now... Maybe if people in 2017 would PLUG IN THEIR DAMN HEADSETS they wouldn't be at such a disadvantage against teams of 4. What makes a team of 4 scary? Communication. That's it.

 

This idea that every single team of 4 is some pro team sitting together at a LAN house practising for HCS is a complete fantasy. Many of these teams of 4 are just randoms that happen to be in a party - probably because they were actually communicating so they got invited by people they don't even know. The way people bitch about losing to teams of 4 you'd think that literally every single game they played solo they were getting matched against 2005's Team 3D over and over again.

 

There's nothing to prevent solo players from communicating, it just seems most are just too lazy but then they want to complain when they lose against a team that's actually communicating.

 

Part of this is 343's fault for making a crappy communication system in Halo 5 with no pre-lobby chat, etc, but you CAN still communicate during a game to randoms if you want to.

 

TD;DR:

 

Party restrictions would increase search times for teams of 4 by a factor of 4X. For people in certain regions, certain skills or playing during certain hours this would make finding games nearly impossible.

 

This is NOT OK in a game that doesn't have a huge online population.

 

Hint: If Halo's population could support it - it would have happened already. The fact that it hasn't happened just further proves that I'm right. Unfortunately 343's refusal to

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^ a nice long post proving the need for a dynamic solution

 

You are essentially advocating for an outdated "non-solution" because of an outdated problem.

 

Latency, Skill, and Party are all of high importance. If at any time a region has the population to maximize all 3, the MM algorithm should support it. If at any time a region cannot matchmake with max effiency in each of the 3 categories, then the same algorithm should loosen restrictions in the most logical manner.

 

Halo5 not having it doesn't mean the population could never support it. It just means 343 didn't do it. If you are so "right" then why are they trying to introduce soft restrictions 2 years later, when the population is at its lowest?

 

It's crazy to criticize H2 in this scenario. It's been 13 years. The algorithm should have improved dramatically since then.

 

Edit: your H5 population conclusions lack context. 20K peak concurrent 24hrs!?!?? Over the course of a 3hr period that could be anywhere between 20-80k unique player rotating into the queue. and what does dec 2016 have to do with lacking restrictions since launch? Team Arena had 343,439 ranked players in February 2016.

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Honestly, do you think playlists should even be ranked in regions like yours? You state that you only want to get decent matches quickly and would rather play against a guy going 40-5 than not find a match at all. Is there even a benefit to ranked playlists when the population is that abysmal?

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Okay that was a lot of wolds and none of it had anything to do with making ONE playlist have party restrictions. Sorry that it's harder to find games due to your location but if you're trying to play ranked with that connection I mean that's gonna happen. You yourself talk about how latency should be the primary factor....well you're gonna have to wait longer for that too since yours is so high. In the premier HCS playlist there NEEDS to be party matching to make it fair. That ONE playlist needs to be as competitive as possible. You just said you don't care about the score so hear me out, search SOCIAL.

 

If halo has ALWAYS had shit MM how did you even become a hardcore fan and how did you even play the game?

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Okay that was a lot of wolds and none of it had anything to do with making ONE playlist have party restrictions. Sorry that it's harder to find games due to your location but if you're trying to play ranked with that connection I mean that's gonna happen. You yourself talk about how latency should be the primary factor....well you're gonna have to wait longer for that too since yours is so high. In the premier HCS playlist there NEEDS to be party matching to make it fair. That ONE playlist needs to be as competitive as possible. You just said you don't care about the score so hear me out, search SOCIAL.

 

If halo has ALWAYS had shit MM how did you even become a hardcore fan and how did you even play the game?

Okay so, you made this great argument and all buuuuuuuut....

 

 

wolds

You misspelled a word so your argument is invalid

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Okay so, you made this great argument and all buuuuuuuut....

 

You misspelled a word so you're argument is invalid

Dang, you used the wrong “your,” so your criticism of his argument is invalid.
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Dang, you used the wrong “your,” so your criticism of his argument is invalid.

your a box playing in water, how are you able to make this statement

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