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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Camo and Hologram both create visual misinformation. Camo and Hologram both require the user to make decisions.

 

With Camo, you choose when to attack and reveal your position.

 

With Hologram, you choose when to deploy and reveal your position.

 

Both of these items rely on fooling your opponent.

 

Camo fools your enemy into thinking you are not there.

 

Hologram fools your enemy into thinking you are there.

 

Every criticism I have heard about Hologram can also be said about Camo due to sheer similarity of the two items. I really don't understand how you can consider one objectively good and the other objectively bad.

 

I think Hologram can add depth to Halo's gameplay and no one has made any points that have caused me to think otherwise. Calling it stupid or a gimmick or annoying hasn't been a compelling enough argument to change my mind.

 

Boyo, you can take this argument and put it to the test yourself man.

 

Go on Reach right now and play BTB. I'm almost positive (if they haven't changed the settings) that you have both Camo and Hologram available to you. 

 

You can make as many arguments as you want for Hologram but simple fact of the matter is, if both options are available to you and nothing else, every single person in the game will pick Camo. Guaranteed. People aren't just saying Hologram is stupid just to piss you off man lol.. We've played with it already. It's useless and stupid. I was fooled by a Hologram literally a single time for like 2 seconds and it's because it was the first time I ever saw it. It's the dumbest gimmick in the game because it doesn't do anything for you except give away your position. It doesn't add any depth to Halo.. At all. If it added depth, skill, etc. to the game we would've been using it in Reach and it wouldn't have gotten removed in subsequent games.

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Camo and Hologram both create visual misinformation. Camo and Hologram both require the user to make decisions.

 

With Camo, you choose when to attack and reveal your position.

 

With Hologram, you choose when to deploy and reveal your position.

 

Both of these items rely on fooling your opponent.

 

Camo fools your enemy into thinking you are not there.

 

Hologram fools your enemy into thinking you are there.

 

Every criticism I have heard about Hologram can also be said about Camo due to sheer similarity of the two items. I really don't understand how you can consider one objectively good and the other objectively bad.

 

I think Hologram can add depth to Halo's gameplay and no one has made any points that have caused me to think otherwise. Calling it stupid or a gimmick or annoying hasn't been a compelling enough argument to change my mind.

Despite these frivolous similarities there are key differences.

 

With the camo, success is a factor of skilled maneuvering, proper assessment, and good decision making.

 

With holo, success is purely a factor of a guess paying off. Sure you decide when to deploy it. But, assuming the user knows to break line of site first, whether or not it succeeds is pure chance. Its also very unlikely. And there is no amount of skill that can improve the chances of a given opponent being fooled.

 

You literally get behind a wall and press a button. Any decision made here after is guess work

 

The reason your mind won't change is because you are ignoring compelling arguments.

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Camo and Hologram both create visual misinformation. Camo and Hologram both require the user to make decisions.

 

With Camo, you choose when to attack and reveal your position.

 

With Hologram, you choose when to deploy and reveal your position.

 

Both of these items rely on fooling your opponent.

 

Camo fools your enemy into thinking you are not there.

 

Hologram fools your enemy into thinking you are there.

 

Every criticism I have heard about Hologram can also be said about Camo due to sheer similarity of the two items. I really don't understand how you can consider one objectively good and the other objectively bad.

 

I think Hologram can add depth to Halo's gameplay and no one has made any points that have caused me to think otherwise. Calling it stupid or a gimmick or annoying hasn't been a compelling enough argument to change my mind.

While they might have similar uses, the way they function individually outweighs whatever similarities there are.

 

  • The first statement is partial true, they can cause visual misinformation. However, it is easier to make out a hologram from the actual player than it is to see an invisible player.
  • You will still remain invisible until the timer runs out; with Hologram, you have to wait for it to recharge.
  • You still have a greater chance of fooling your opponent with Camo because of invisibility. There are obvious visual differences between the hologram and the actual player. Success with Hologram is lower.

While I respect your persistence, I still can't see what Hologram can do what hasn't already been accomplished with power-ups and player movement all the way back to Halo: CE.

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I'm not trying to say Hologram is equal to Camo. I'm not trying to say that Hologram didn't have problems that should be fixed (like the player's gamertag not appearing over the Hologram which was an obvious tell). I am saying that the concept of a deployable Hologram could add depth to Halo.

 

I think the concept of fooling an opponent via a misinformation tool adds a unique dynamic to gameplay that can allow players to make plays that they would not be able to without it. Gameplay is more than aim and shoot. Hologram adds a layer of decision making that no other items offer.

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If Halo focused more on the "aim and shoot" aspect the game would be much better than it is today.

 

 

Holo is only good for radar manipulation. If you're playing without radar it is useless. I pretty much used it for most of my H4 playtime early on. Shooting a hologram away after you were one shot and having the enemy chase that dot was usually all you could do. But would anyone really risk their life trying to get a hologram? Nope. A Needler is more effective overall.

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That's part of the point man.  If they see your hologram, odds are they are looking in your general direction anyway.  the only way that is not true is if you send that thing clear across a map, in which case your odds of killing them are low.

 

As soon as i shoot that thing, i know its a hologram AND i knew EXACTLY where you are.  The only time you can get an advantage using it is if you happen to pop out at exactly the right time, as i am shooting it which would be more luck than anything (how can you know when im about to shoot?).  which remember, in order to do that you need to be in a spot where i can't see you, but i can see the hologram AND you can also see the hologram AND you need to know from the gunfire exactly where I am if you are going to pop-out and get shots on me first.  Otherwise im going ot know exactly where you are and if you take even a second to find me when you pop out at best we will start shooting at each other at teh same time, so you gained no advantage.

 

The only way hologram gives you an advantage is

1) The people you are playing against are absolute morons

2) The situation you send it out in is exactly as i described above AND you get some luck.

 

And in neither of those is it fun to use.

 

If something has as many prerequisites as hologram does before it can be useful, that means that its not really useful at all.

 

Honestly the hologram debate should've ended right here. You can't get anymore compelling than the entire strategy of using Hologram being detailed right here. This is literally it, in a nutshell.

  • You have to know where I am.
  • You have to know I'm looking at your direction.
  • You have to know if I'll shoot the hologram; in which if someone does, it only takes a bullet to realize it's a hologram.
  • You have to be in a position to see both the hologram, and where gunfire can come from to learn my general location.
  • You've just given up your location.

Sure, you're probably going to say "well, what if we design it to make it go off remotely at [...]." Well, sure Boyo, we can do as much designing as we want on it, but once gamers realize how the mechanics work, they're not going to fall for the dumb gimmicks. Camo, on the other hand, actually empowers the player to you know.. Play.

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Many other games feature "decoy grenades" that are designed to simulate gunfire, and to make the enemy think you are in a different location. I suppose I just feel like Hologram is Halo's version of the decoy grenade.

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Many other games feature "decoy grenades" that are designed to simulate gunfire, and to make the enemy think you are in a different location. I suppose I just feel like Hologram is Halo's version of the decoy grenade.

 

Oh, you mean like the decoy grenade in CS... THAT BASICALLY NO ONE EVER USES? Great example.

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The problem that Hologram, Decoy grenades, etc. present is that their depth is both minimal (not nonexistent, but in very low quantity) and mostly reliant on randomness / enemy incompetence.  The better an enemy is, the less likely they are to fall for them.  See for example the Spy in Team Fortress 2, who is used constantly in low level pubs but almost never used in competitive play.

 

Is hologram worth the effort to put into the game?  Is it worth assigning a controller button to?  For the first I'd say no, and for the second I'd say in itself no, only if there are other things tied to the same button that can be exchanged with hologram.

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I'm not trying to say Hologram is equal to Camo. I'm not trying to say that Hologram didn't have problems that should be fixed (like the player's gamertag not appearing over the Hologram which was an obvious tell). I am saying that the concept of a deployable Hologram could add depth to Halo.

 

I think the concept of fooling an opponent via a misinformation tool adds a unique dynamic to gameplay that can allow players to make plays that they would not be able to without it. Gameplay is more than aim and shoot. Hologram adds a layer of decision making that no other items offer.

Its not a layer of decision making. It can't get any shallower.

 

1) did i break line of sight? yes deploy holo

2) was he fooled by holo? I don't know, so i guess.

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Being able to set it off remotely would make it really good actually...

The only problem with this is that it no longer requires a single button press. When Hologram runs straight out of your player model, the direction you are facing determines the direction it runs in. Deploying it remotely would require you to choose a location for the Hologram to originate from, easy enough to aim at a spot and press the deploy button, but then you have to tell the Hologram which direction to run in. Not so simple to input that command.

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At the end of the day, the more incompetent the player, the more likely they will fall for it. It has no use at high level play, because absolutely no one will fall for it.

 

Can we move on from this? The point has already been made.

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At the end of the day, the more incompetent the player, the more likely they will fall for it. It has no use at high level play, because absolutely no one will fall for it.

Can we move on from this? The point has already been made.

Can you explain to me how you tell the difference between a real player who runs past a doorway you are watching and a Hologram who runs past a doorway you are watching; especially in no sprint gametypes? How did you develop this skill to instantly determine which one is real and which one isn't?

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It's rare anyone just runs in a perfectly straight line unflinching.  Human players have all kinds of subtleties that holograms in their current state do not even begin to approach.

 

Human comes out of the top hallway on Pit.  90% of the time they're going to orientate their view towards the turret tower, even if ever so slightly, either because they're checking that area out or they're heading that direction.  They aren't just going to continue staring at the opposite wall.

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It'd be better if when it came out, it kept moving in the direction you were moving, facing the direction you were facing, so you could cast out a strafing holo.

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Okay what the actual fuvk is this high ground map? This map is literally the most broken map I've played in this game so far. There are 2 spawn points that you spawn at 99% of the time. If you honestly for a second think I believe that these maps were tested you are insane. @@NOKYARD I don't know what this shit is but you gotta pass that on. That map is actual trash like is it really THAT hard to just have normal spawn points? Holy shit.

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Shield recharge delay has been fixed. This playlist is suddenly a lot more fun.

Nice what is it at now?

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