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How big is this sandbox update going to be, and will it be out before Destiny 2?

11 weapons 1 powerup I believe. The only thin they've said it it'll launch this fall...

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I'd wager that higher level players were much more likely to vote that way than lower level and social players...

 

Lower level and social players greatly outnumbered higher level players.

 

I can assure you if we counted total games play on Halo 3 BRs vs ARs, "greatly outnumbered" wouldn't be the case. Slightly outnumbered seems much more likely; 60/40. In ranked, without question, BR Starts would win hands down. Like I mentioned earlier, people voted against AR starts at like level 10 and I did this numerous times throughout the games life span in Slayer, Doubles, etc. Social definitely had significantly less but there were still people who vetoed AR starts. Just because they don't play ranked, doesn't mean they prefer AR starts.

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Anybody that put any amount of time/effort into actually learning the game would eventually come to the conclusion that BR starts are how the game is meant to be played. If they haven't come to that conclusion, then they haven't put in the time or effort to understand it.

 

That leaves people that didn't play long enough to even learn the game, and people that don't care and will accept anything. I'm dying to see this community that actually puts hundreds of hours into standard Halo (ie not goofy alternate gametype) and never graduates to wanting BR starts. It is an INEVITABILITY to prefer it as you progress as a player.

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I can assure you if we counted total games play on Halo 3 BRs vs ARs, "greatly outnumbered" wouldn't be the case. Slightly outnumbered seems much more likely; 60/40. In ranked, without question, BR Starts would win hands down. Like I mentioned earlier, people voted against AR starts at like level 10 and I did this numerous times throughout the games life span in Slayer, Doubles, etc. Social definitely had significantly less but there were still people who vetoed AR starts. Just because they don't play ranked, doesn't mean they prefer AR starts.

I think people's memory of veto results are skewed by their level of play.

 

Your right, the playlist played doesn't neccisarily speak to starting preference, but it DOES speak to how people played most often.

 

Which brings me to my original point. It's perfectly logical for the H3 community playlist to attempt to emulate how people mostly played H3

 

Anybody that put any amount of time/effort into actually learning the game would eventually come to the conclusion that BR starts are how the game is meant to be played. If they haven't come to that conclusion, then they haven't put in the time or effort to understand it.

 

That leaves people that didn't play long enough to even learn the game, and people that don't care and will accept anything. I'm dying to see this community that actually puts hundreds of hours into standard Halo (ie not goofy alternate gametype) and never graduates to wanting BR starts. It is an INEVITABILITY to prefer it as you progress as a player.

Your mistake is assuming that everyone spent their time trying to understand nuance- again, you, like most people here, are showing a competitive bias. Therefore you conflate your own tendencies as natural/common progression.

 

Most people were just playing to play, not to understand what makes a game tick.

 

People spent thousands of hours playing social...

And here we are with halo 5 players greatly preferring Warzone over HCS.. most players just aren't motivated by the same concepts you are.

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The whole entire point of a retro playlist is nostalgia...

 

No one who played halo 3 played precision starts unless they were playing mlg (or swat) . How is that ridiculous at all?

 

We can all agree here that precision starts is "better". But the fact is the mast majority of halos playerbase has never played that way and most people looking forward to the playlist want it to be close to what they remembered.

 

So, because of nostalgia, no effort should be made to approximate the best that game had to offer? In fact, the OPPOSITE is being done: wasted effort trying to figure out the closest approximation of utter shit, solely because Bungie was dumb enough to put it in the original. Casual players who are too oblivious, stupid, or lazy to be aware that AR starts H3 are awful for everyone involved should get "what they're used to" because they're the majority? Fuck that, especially in a game with a population as middling at best as H5's. Pandering to casuals with no understanding of the games they play just makes games worse.

 

It works out for 343, though. They can deliver a god-awful "classic" experience under the cover of "nostalgia" that will make their games look decent by comparison and blame the original (instead of, you know, remaking garbage maps and settings) for no one wanting to play it. Perfect. I guess classic Halo wasn't that fun after all! I just don't enjoy AR starts on Avalanche!

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I think people's memory of veto results are skewed by their level of play.

 

Your right, the playlist played doesn't neccisarily speak to starting preference, but it DOES speak to how people played most often.

 

Which brings me to my original point. It's perfectly logical for the H3 community playlist to attempt to emulate how people mostly played H3

 

Your mistake is assuming that everyone spent their time trying to understand nuance- again, you, like most people here, are showing a competitive bias. Therefore you conflate your own tendencies as natural/common progression.

 

Most people were just playing to play, not to understand what makes a game tick.

 

People spent thousands of hours playing social...

And here we are with halo 5 players greatly preferring Warzone over HCS.. most players just aren't motivated by the same concepts you are.

THEN

THEY

WOULDNT

MIND

BR

STARTS

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So, because of nostalgia, no effort should be made to approximate the best that game had to offer? In fact, the OPPOSITE is being done: wasted effort trying to figure out the closest approximation of utter shit, solely because Bungie was dumb enough to put it in the original. Casual players who are too oblivious, stupid, or lazy to be aware that AR starts H3 are awful for everyone involved should get "what they're used to" because they're the majority? Fuck that, especially in a game with a population as middling at best as H5's. Pandering to casuals with no understanding of the games they play just makes games worse.

 

It works out for 343, though. They can deliver a god-awful "classic" experience under the cover of "nostalgia" that will make their games look decent by comparison and blame the original (instead of, you know, remaking garbage maps and settings) for no one wanting to play it. Perfect. I guess classic Halo wasn't that fun after all! I just don't enjoy AR starts on Avalanche!

"These people liked the wrong thing" is basically what you are saying here.

 

The h3 playlist is a nostalgia playlist. It's as simple as that.

 

If you ask me, they shouldn't be making an h3 playlist at all. It's an extremely shallow way to pay homage - and it can never properly emulate the h3 experience thanks to the weapon sandbox being balanced for h5s mechanics, h3 weapons being absent from the game, along with equipment being absent.

 

As such, a 1:1 representation of h3 maps will never work properly. So yes, the effort is inherently a waste of time. Mind you "the best it had to offer" is subjective. Someone who didnt share your concerns (which is most people) may not agree.

 

I'm opinion, they should have, instead, made a No SA playlist, and created a few req weapons for balance against BMS, and let the community create original maps and/or remakes.

 

But that wasnt the question. It was "what are the proper startimg weapons for a community h3 playlist". It makes sense to use the weapons the community mostly used when playing H3.

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THEN

THEY

WOULDNT

MIND

BR

STARTS

I dont think this is how the community mostly played all playlists at all levels of play.

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"These people liked the wrong thing" is basically what you are saying here.

 

The h3 playlist is a nostalgia playlist. It's as simple as that.

 

If you ask me, they shouldn't be making an h3 playlist at all. It's an extremely shallow way to pay homage - and it can never properly emulate the h3 experience thanks to the weapon sandbox being balanced for h5s mechanics, h3 weapons being absent from the game, along with equipment being absent.

 

As such, a 1:1 representation of h3 maps will never work properly. So yes, the effort is inherently a waste of time. Mind you "the best it had to offer" is subjective. Someone who didnt share your concerns (which is most people) may not agree.

 

I'm opinion, they should have, instead, made a No SA playlist, and created a few req weapons for balance against BMS, and let the community create original maps and/or remakes.

 

But that wasnt the question. It was "what are the proper startimg weapons for a community h3 playlist". It makes sense to use the weapons the community mostly used when playing H3.

 

No. I'm saying that these people don't put enough thought into Halo for their half-assed opinions to matter. They don't know what they want or why, because they are casuals. That's how casuals operate. All you're doing is going in circles with complete fucking pointless fencing sitting and playing devil's advocate for a theoretical majority, because you seem to believe that not taking a real position is the intellectual way out of the argument. All opinions are not created equal. Of these two camps, pro bullet hose and pro precision starts, ONE knows how to play the game and the other doesn't and/or doesn't care. The notion that these two positions are equivalent because "opinions" is absolutely moronic.

 

​Again, I don't buy the argument that because a vague majority is "used to" shit, a nostalgia playlist needs to cater to them. Developers should take responsibility for providing the highest quality possible experience. Pandering to the lowest common denominator of player does not and never will accomplish this.

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No. I'm saying that these people don't put enough thought into Halo for their half-assed opinions to matter. They don't know what they want or why, because they are casuals. That's how casuals operate. All you're doing is going in circles with complete fucking pointless fencing sitting and playing devil's advocate for a theoretical majority, because you seem to believe that not taking a real position is the intellectual way out of the argument. All opinions are not created equal. Of these two camps, pro bullet hose and pro precision starts, ONE knows how to play the game and the other doesn't and/or doesn't care. The notion that these two positions are equivalent because "opinions" is absolutely moronic.

 

​Again, I don't buy the argument that because a vague majority is "used to" shit, a nostalgia playlist needs to cater to them. Developers should take responsibility for providing the highest quality possible experience. Pandering to the lowest common denominator of player does not and never will accomplish this.

They put money into it.. just like you they put playtime into it.. just like you. Because they don't aim to git good or understand balance nuance means that they shouldnt have influence on a temporary community playlist?

 

Hmm ok

 

How is my position not a real one? Because you disagree? Because you think your opinion on high quality is an actual barometer?

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All I know is, in college I played a shitton of H2 and h3 with baaaaaad kids. They hated AR starts in H3 more than SMG starts in H2.

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I dont think this is how the community mostly played all playlists at all levels of play.

And I'm sayin it doesn't matter, because the only reason AR starts may have outnumbered BR starts was because the majority of players (low tier) didn't care what they were getting and if they voted at all, probably voted Denny's style by just looking at the map picture instead of the gametype. The AR starts argument gains its strength from the apathy of the masses. If you're going to try to argue that the people that consciously prefer AR starts for actual reasons outnumber us I think you'd be hard pressed to back that up. So if apathy and lack of discerning taste is the bulk of the weight on that side of the seesaw, WHY are they worth catering to? Why not make settings that are objectively (yes, objectively) better?

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If you care enough and are intelligent enough to care one way or the other, you either want BR starts, or you will want BR starts.

 

Any ACTUAL preference for AR starts stems from a fleeting state of inexperience and naïveté.

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And I'm sayin it doesn't matter, because the only reason AR starts may have outnumbered BR starts was because the majority of players (low tier) didn't care what they were getting and if they voted at all, probably voted Denny's style by just looking at the picture. The AR starts argument gains it's strength from the apathy of the masses. If you're goin to try to argue that the people that consciously prefer AR starts for actual reasons outnumber us Inthink you'd be hard pressed to back that up. So if apathy and lack of discerning taste is bulk of the weight on that side of the seesaw, WHY are they worth catering to? Why not make settings that are objectively (yes, objectively) better?

How do you conclude they are apathetic? How do you parse not voting because they didn't care from not voting because the presented gametype is what they wanted.

 

I think precision settings are "objectively better" only of your objective is balance around displays of gunskill- but that's not neccisarily what everyone in the audience values.

 

Its like saying chess is better than connect 4. It's going to depend on what you are looking for in a game.

 

edit: nevermind dont answer that. I'm done talking about it. Too much energy spent speculating about an ill- conceived temporary playlist that is, regardless of its settings, insignificant in the grand scheme of things. If we were talking about how basic halo should be balanced and presented going forward i could understand the passion... but its a fucking forge playlist in a game that hardly anyone plays anyway.

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If BR starts was the norm and AR was the seperate playlist then more people would play BR starts by a HUGE margin. The default thing is always played the most. People LIKE BR starts. People PLAY AR starts. Not because of preference but because that's the default experience so that's what they know and as mentioned before a TON of people vote solely on the map not the gametype. Yes I know there ARE people that prefer AR starts but I promise you there are a lottttttt of people that vote for it based on the map and familiarity.

 

Making it AR starts takes away all the BR/precision fans. Making it Br starts brings in those fans and all the other people that just want "classic settings".

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@@Mhunterjr, my energy comes from the fact that I was actually excited to play it when I thought my starting precision weapon would be better than my starting automatic.

 

H3 maps with no SA's, no equipment, and good shot registration sounded pretty damn fun to me.

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I'd like to think about and put it this way:

 

As the timeline of Halo 3 went on, what do you guys think was more beloved? BRs or ARs? With every Halo, the casuals will always leave the game before the diehard Halo fans. It has always been that way for every video game franchise that has ever existed and the ones who actually love the game try to play the game at it's most optimal settings.

 

Now, let's just put that into the perspective of Halo 5 for a second. The game has been out for 2 years. Die hard Halo fans left this franchise long before Halo 5 even released. This is an undeniable fact. Population is more than likely at it's absolute lowest (until someone can definitively prove to me otherwise, "highest active population since Halo 3" is complete rubbish.. And I never use the word 'rubbish'). 

 

Taking that into consideration, that would mean of the people playing.. A vast majority are purely Halo 5 fans or DIEHARD Halo fans. In which in the case of the former, a lot of them are new/young; not all but a lot. Why would inferior settings please them when most of them haven't even played Halo 3? In the case of the latter, what settings do you think would majorly please this community? I can assure you AR start was the last thing they want to play.

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Or another way: Which set of starting weapons is more likely to turn people away? BR/AR, or AR/bad magnum?

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How big is this sandbox update going to be, and will it be out before Destiny 2?

Huge - 13+ weapons, power up (and more might come too). Won't be out before D2. Out before November 7th.

 

11 weapons 1 powerup I believe. The only thin they've said it it'll launch this fall...

It was originally that, but they've said there might be more coming too.

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Getting cross map 4rd by an atrociously piss easy BR, or spammy as fuck pistol fights. Pick your cancer, I guess.

 

Or we could, I don't know, use the default magnum.

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Or another way: Which set of starting weapons is more likely to turn people away? BR/AR, or AR/bad magnum?

Assuming that there will be BR pickups on map, certainly the AR/bad magnum. You thought AR starts alongside a bad BR in H3 would snowball enough, but wait until complete noobs pick up an H2 BR to contend a gunfighter magnum in H5.

 

Maybe I shouldn't give them any more ideas.

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Huge - 13+ weapons, power up (and more might come too). Won't be out before D2. Out before November 7th.

 

It was originally that, but they've said there might be more coming too.

Ah ok. For some reason I thought it started at 14 and then they said there would be less.

 

The more the merrier, I suppose

 

Edit: here we go

Note that when we kicked off this conversation I said there were fourteen weapons and one power-up set to be included in the Halo 5 weapon tuning test. As the team finalizes plans, these specifics are shifting slightly – we’ll continue to roll out the list of weapons being included and will have a final complete roster before the test formally begins but it may not be exactly fourteen anymore.

He then goes on the say that this weeks update will list the remaining weapons. People are speculating that since it's been 3 items per post, and we've had 8 weapons posted so far, that the final tally will be 11.

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Getting cross map 4rd by an atrociously piss easy BR, or spammy as fuck pistol fights. Pick your cancer, I guess.

 

Or we could, I don't know, use the default magnum.

 

This is exactly what *I'm* saying. This kind of crap has been happening since the dawn of Halo 2 with SMG starts. You're going to have the worst pistol in the game on maps that have weapons that will murder anything you spawn with.

 

Nostalgia will make them click the playlist.

 

Settings will make them stay.

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