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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I agree with pretty much everything you just said, especially the bit about not having to jump prior a spring jump which I mentioned in my last post. The controls would literally be what spring jumping is now, you would just crouch and uncrouch and then jump, and if you do the timing right it would be a quick lateral jump.

 

And if you fuck up you just launch into a normal high jump and get punished. The strafe jump could play into momentum melees too

with no lunge...

 

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I use the ghost almost every game in BTB. I am never in the dark about when my ghost is going to die. It gives you purple smoke and big red flashing lights. That means get out. And when I do I throw a nade at the ghost to put it on respawn and look at the clock to see when it'll spawn. To me that's like running out of ammo on your vehicle, and I'm fine with it. As long as you know your vehicle is about to die, it's perfectly fair. If the driver wants to be stubborn and go down with the ship then that's on him.

I don't have a problem knowing that my vehicle is about to die, I take issue with the way it is supposed to be prevented, which makes vehicle death practically inevitable as opposed to the guy who can safely snipe from accross the map.

 

So, I did some Halo studying...

 

What if small arms literally could not kill a vehicle's base health aside from certain weak points or outright killing the driver, but small arms could cause permanent damage to the Armor plating of a vehicle, eventually breaking it off and exposing the driver more or even a weak point? Even reducing the efficiency of the vehicle weapons?

 

H2, and to a lesser extent H3 had this similar system in mind.

 

In H2, you could eventually shoot off the front hood of a Ghost, reducing the protection that the driver had from frontal attacks and even reducing the accuracy of the Ghost weapons to force the driver to move in closer(and make the sudden lack of Armor all the more apparent). Jumping or even moving slightly to the side allowed for much better openings against such a damaged Ghost.

 

Here are a couple video tests for the H2 Ghost:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30486213

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30486291

 

H3 had a similar implementation, but it took more damage to break the Armor, and the Ghost never lost weapon accuracy:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30486420

 

I would say that the biggest issue with this implementation in both games is simply the inconsistent hitboxes making it harder to get a clear shot on the driver than necessary. Perhaps exposing the driver even more would help, along with fixing the hitboxes.

 

Otherwise I and many others found vehicles much more fun to pilot and fight this way. If this was emphasized and implemented well, it would fix the lame teamshoot-the-vehicles-to-death gameplay of recent Halo games, but still provide a way to cause permanent damage to vehicles before/if you die, the reward being a bigger and actual opening to properly outplay the vehicle, exposing the driver, nerfing his weapons, and perhaps even slowing his movement.

 

But the driver would still have a way to work harder and still keep the vehicle alive from inevitable death. What I absolutely detest in Reach/H4/H5 are when you have situations where the driver has stayed alive properly but potshots over time cause this scenario to happen:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30486709

 

This situation is terrible. This is boring to do as the player on foot and extremely frustrating to the player in the vehicle. You aren't outplaying the vehicle by simply shooting center-of-mass, and the driver has no way to counter that play. This common scenario non-existant in H2 and H3 is unfun and uninteresting.

 

Having to constantly exit weak vehicles might seem like it makes sense, but it slows down the gameplay of BTB in a way that is similar to why a lot of Halo players don't like non-regenerative player health, but even worse. Constantly having to worry about non-existant health packs for vehicles is frustrating in this scenario. It has been since Reach.

 

Hell, even in CE there might be something of note to the player shields and non-regenerative health providing a decently fair punishment to driving vehicles, I am not sure what to say regarding it:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30486928

 

 

 

Anyway, back to vehicles that are immune to small arms at the core but can still have small arms shoot off Armor to expose drivers and weak points, along with possibly nerfed weapons and movement at the weakest stage of the vehicle, I think that is the core solution we are looking for. It is similar to H2 and H3 but with an improved emphasis on that design.

 

The easily melted H5 Warthog Gunner would be what happens when you shoot off the Turret Armor, and the Windshield for the Driver:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/screenshot/6284066

 

The weakened Banshee could expose the pilot from the rear more as it flys away from it's hit and run attacks:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/screenshot/6284082

 

The Scorpion could have it's cockpit hatch removed as well as individually exposing the treads and even even have another weak point in the rear:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30487377

 

 

 

Ultimately I just want driving vehicles to be fun again, and more fun to fight against as well by picking them apart methodically as opposed to spamming shots at their center-of-mass.

 

I do however, appreciate your continued responses. It has been nice to have a good discussion on Teambeyond for once.

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snip

What an excellent post. I'm glad you're here. That was extremely convincing. Thank you for the effort you put into that. I legit had no idea that the ghost lost accuracy after damage in H2. Maybe I knew that in 2006, but I've long since forgotten it.

 

When I defend the cumulative health system that H5 uses, please don't misinterpret that as me defending Reach and H4. H5 does it a lot better than either of those two. I've never tested it, but I think H5 uses a series of damage states that do recover over time if the threshold isn't reached. So for example I could shoot a ghost 4 times and leave it alone and it'll fully recover, but if I shoot it 10 times I knock it into the next damage state and it'll never recover to full health. Each damage state feels like a reasonable and avoidable amount of damage to me. I feel like if I take permanent damage in my ghost, I deserved it for exposing myself that long. It's certainly not impossible to keep a ghost alive the entire game. I've had loads of no-death games on Scrapyard. And these damage states combined with the total health pool of the ghost feels like enough health to me.

 

I can absolutely get behind what you're suggesting, but only certain vehicles should be outright impossible to kill with your utility (outside of crits). Warthogs, tanks and the mantis would play great like that (imagining the mantis limp around when near death sounds pretty sweet to me). But fast, light vehicles like the ghost, banshee and wasp should be able to be destroyed by small arms fire, provided their health pool and damage states are fair. I'm not necessarily advocating for a strict health pool that permanently diminishes after every single hit. In practical situations its like a defacto health pool if the other team actually shoots at you consistently, but in principle a careful driver can keep himself alive indefinitely if he disengages correctly.

 

Like I said, I use the H5 Ghost A LOT, like, every chance I get. I fucking love that vehicle. It's strong and capable, but it's far from invulnerable. I have to be pretty careful. But when I die, I don't feel like it was inevitable, or that I didn't deserve it. I ALWAYS feel like there was something different I could have done to keep my run going, even with this health system. In order to die to small arms, you need to stay exposed for fairly long stretches of time unless you're getting hit by two guys at once, in which case they deserve the damage they're doing.

 

low laptop battery might edit later

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What an excellent post. I'm glad you're here. That was extremely convincing. Thank you for the effort you put into that. I legit had no idea that the ghost lost accuracy after damage in H2. Maybe I knew that in 2006, but I've long since forgotten it.

 

When I defend the cumulative health system that H5 uses, please don't misinterpret that as me defending Reach and H4. H5 does it a lot better than either of those two. I've never tested it, but I think H5 uses a series of damage states that do recover over time if the threshold isn't reached. So for example I could shoot a ghost 4 times and leave it alone and it'll fully recover, but if I shoot it 10 times I knock it into the next damage state and it'll never recover to full health. Each damage state feels like a reasonable and avoidable amount of damage to me. I feel like if I take permanent damage in my ghost, I deserved it for exposing myself that long. It's certainly not impossible to keep a ghost alive the entire game. I've had loads of no-death games on Scrapyard. And these damage states combined with the total health pool of the ghost feels like enough health to me.

 

I can absolutely get behind what you're suggesting, but only certain vehicles should be outright impossible to kill with your utility (outside of crits). Warthogs, tanks and the mantis would play great like that (imagining the mantis limp around when near death sounds pretty sweet to me). But fast, light vehicles like the ghost, banshee and wasp should be able to be destroyed by small arms fire, provided their health pool and damage states are fair. I'm not necessarily advocating for a strict health pool that permanently diminishes after every single hit. In practical situations its like a defacto health pool if the other team actually shoots at you consistently, but in principle a careful driver can keep himself alive indefinitely if he disengages correctly.

 

Like I said, I use the H5 Ghost A LOT, like, every chance I get. I fucking love that vehicle. It's strong and capable, but it's far from invulnerable. I have to be pretty careful. But when I die, I don't feel like it was inevitable, or that I didn't deserve it. I ALWAYS feel like there was something different I could have done to keep my run going, even with this health system. In order to die to small arms, you need to stay exposed for fairly long stretches of time unless you're getting hit by two guys at once, in which case they deserve the damage they're doing.

 

low laptop battery might edit later

What about my suggestion where the quick vehicles like ghost and banshee can have their thrusters shot off so they can't boost anymore

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What an excellent post. I'm glad you're here. That was extremely convincing. Thank you for the effort you put into that. I legit had no idea that the ghost lost accuracy after damage in H2. Maybe I knew that in 2006, but I've long since forgotten it.

 

When I defend the cumulative health system that H5 uses, please don't misinterpret that as me defending Reach and H4. H5 does it a lot better than either of those two. I've never tested it, but I think H5 uses a series of damage states that do recover over time if the threshold isn't reached. So for example I could shoot a ghost 4 times and leave it alone and it'll fully recover, but if I shoot it 10 times I knock it into the next damage state and it'll never recover to full health. Each damage state feels like a reasonable and avoidable amount of damage to me. I feel like if I take permanent damage in my ghost, I deserved it for exposing myself that long. It's certainly not impossible to keep a ghost alive the entire game. I've had loads of no-death games on Scrapyard. And these damage states combined with the total health pool of the ghost feels like enough health to me.

 

I can absolutely get behind what you're suggesting, but only certain vehicles should be outright impossible to kill with your utility (outside of crits). Warthogs, tanks and the mantis would play great like that (imagining the mantis limp around when near death sounds pretty sweet to me). But fast, light vehicles like the ghost, banshee and wasp should be able to be destroyed by small arms fire, provided their health pool and damage states are fair. I'm not necessarily advocating for a strict health pool that permanently diminishes after every single hit. In practical situations its like a defacto health pool if the other team actually shoots at you consistently, but in principle a careful driver can keep himself alive indefinitely if he disengages correctly.

 

Like I said, I use the H5 Ghost A LOT, like, every chance I get. I fucking love that vehicle. It's strong and capable, but it's far from invulnerable. I have to be pretty careful. But when I die, I don't feel like it was inevitable, or that I didn't deserve it. I ALWAYS feel like there was something different I could have done to keep my run going, even with this health system. In order to die to small arms, you need to stay exposed for fairly long stretches of time unless you're getting hit by two guys at once, in which case they deserve the damage they're doing.

 

low laptop battery might edit later

Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed the read. I was half afraid to see you somehow tear apart my post.

 

And actually, yes, BTW, I am aware that you have been specifically defending the H5 Ghost, as opposed to the Reach-H4 versions.

 

BTW, they mostly replaced the weak standard Ghost with the increased Armor Sword Ghost in H5 BTB. That is definitely better but I am still not convinced that I will ever like the H5 vehicle health system for Halo.

 

See, the thing is, all 3 of those games (Reach/H4/H5), use that regenerative damage state system. It is a little bit more acceptable in H5 I'll agree, because they increased the amount of shots it takes to trigger each phase. But it still leaves those weak, unrecoverable cleanup situations I hate.

 

I tried to say earlier that part of my problem with that system is that there is no visible health bar that warns me I'm close to triggering the next phase. They already did a good job of telling you that you triggered the next damage phase but nothing that really warns you before it is triggered, where a simple health bar would be best IMO. With an added health bar my opinion of it would improve, but I am still not liking it.

 

I would, however, advocate for vehicle health pickups and/or repair tools of some sort, if we absolutely have to stick with the regenerative damage state system, like Reach Spartan health and their health packs.

 

 

Also don't forget that even if the light vehicles are immune to small arms, 2 or more out of 8 people could still easily focus fire on simply shooting the extra-exposed driver or weak points when the Armor is shot off.

 

Even then, with my improved H2-H3 vehicle health system, light vehicles(or even in general) may not be completely invincible to small arms, I would maybe have them able to die to maybe say, only 2-3 mags worth of the utility weapon, but they would be able to regenerate their health fully, still subject to the rules of Armor that can be shot off. This way a couple people could still focus fire effectively while leaving the light vehicles continuously viable for hit-and-run attacks against isolated targets.

 

Then medium and heavy vehicles would either be immune to small arms as I originally stated, or still be able to succumb to increased amounts of unrelenting focus fire respectively, depending on Armor class.

 

In this way, perhaps straight focus fire kills aren't completely eliminated from the strategy, but heavily downplayed in favor of shooting off Armor and exposing weak points, weakening weapon effectiveness, and slowing mobility.

 

If the vehicle health regenerated by being linked to player health, I would definitely remove the energy shields, at least from the flying vehicles. The Mantis might still be fine serving as a literal bullet sponge unit with low DPS, but the shields would maybe be redundant in this case.

 

Plus having the system be completely uniform in this case would be a definite plus.

 

Curious as to your thoughts.

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What about my suggestion where the quick vehicles like ghost and banshee can have their thrusters shot off so they can't boost anymore

 

 

Something along those lines of reduced boost effectiveness is what I was going for with slowing vehicle mobility over time.

 

 

If every vehicle driver was as vulnerable as the warthog gunner I'd be happy.

That is basically what I am saying.

 

Instead of being able to outright destroy the vehicles over time with your small arms, design vehicles to have much more exposed drivers after you shoot off the Armor.

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So,

 

Better physics- for grenade flipping

Better telegraphed damage state transitions

More exposed drivers/pilots- by default or after losing armor depending on the vehicle

Weak spots that effect vehicle handling/ accuracy

Multi - personnel flying vehicles replace single man vehicles

 

i like it

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I don't want light fast vehicles to lose mobility. I think that would be less fun then dying to 8-10 utility shots. Their mobility is the whole point of using the vehicle, and a gimped ghost, banshee or wasp would only be annoying to pilot. People would do the same thing they do now where they just abandon the vehicle, except now the game affords you the option of going down with the ship and staying lethal til the very end. There's been times where I've chosen to stay in a red flashing ghost to squeeze out one more kill before boosting to safety and abandoning it. If my ghost got gimped mid fight and I wanted to disengage but couldn't, I'd be pretty angry at the vehicle design. I get it for the slower moving, heavily armored vehicles, but that mechanic defeats the purpose of light vehicles to me.

 

Want to chip off the armor to expose crits? Fine. Screw with handling? Ok. Weapon accuracy? Starting to become overkill imo. But slowing the vehicle like a Battlefield 3 MBT disable? No thank you. That's too far.

 

I like being able to destroy fast movers with standard shots because you could still abuse your invulnerability with a play style shift. If I couldn't die to center mass shots in a ghost, I'd just start playing my corners and more or less peek shooting. That system lets you scamper away and rely on the human error and average inaccuracy to stay alive. Most people aren't gonna crit 4 times while you're boosting away, but they could probably land enough regular shots to blow you up if you allowed for it.

 

I think this system either goes too far and defeats the purpose of a light attack vehicle, or it let's the driver get away with too much. If the H3 ghost didn't handle like a fucking city bus, that driver would be able to get away with LUDICROUS overextensions and miscalculations by just relying on his opponent to miss.

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I've never tested it, but I think H5 uses a series of damage states that do recover over time if the threshold isn't reached. So for example I could shoot a ghost 4 times and leave it alone and it'll fully recover, but if I shoot it 10 times I knock it into the next damage state and it'll never recover to full health.

 

I kind of want to get involved in the whole BTB/vehicle conversation, but I'm at work now so I can't.

Quick point though, is that the quoted bit is exactly how it's worked since Reach; that's how guys like Gamesager kept that fragile Banshee alive so long, by knowing exactly when to duck out and recover. The recovery for each stage of damage was tied to the user's shield - once your shield was fully restored your vehicle health was also restored to the maximum for that corresponding damage state. Basically it worked like Reach's health system without the healthpacks to recover from any lasting damage.

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@@Hard Way

 

Light and fast vehicles should be light and fast. I wouldn't advocate for slowing them down, but making them harder to handle after losing a wing makes sense to me... a truly good pilot would be able to compensate and still be lethal.

 

As far as shots effecting accuracy, the H2 ghost video @@SMARTAN 427 posted makes a strong case for it IMO. It's subtle enough to not make the gun useless, but effective enough to allow infantry with a good shot and movement to counter.

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@@Hard Way

 

Light and fast vehicles should be light and fast. I wouldn't advocate for slowing them down, but making them harder to handle after losing a wing makes sense to me... a truly good pilot would be able to compensate and still be lethal.

 

As far as shots effecting accuracy, the H2 ghost video @@SMARTAN 427 posted makes a strong case for it IMO. It's subtle enough to not make the gun useless, but effective enough to allow infantry with a good shot and movement to counter.

I'm ok with the handling change (as long as it isn't obnoxious), but I'm indifferent to the loss in accuracy. I don't feel it adds much. I'd like it more if you had to specifically aim for the guns to get it, and not just a standard effect of dropping into a certain damage state. I think destroying the "heat syncs" would be better, giving the ghost a strict cooldown on the shots like the Warthog has (only faster). No one likes a random spread.

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I'm ok with the handling change (as long as it isn't obnoxious), but I'm indifferent to the loss in accuracy. I don't feel it adds much. I'd like it more if you had to specifically aim for the guns to get it, and not just a standard effect of dropping into a certain damage state. I think destroying the "heat syncs" would be better, giving the ghost a strict cooldown on the shots like the Warthog has (only faster). No one likes a random spread.

i think you should have to shoot the guns to decrease the accuracy.

 

I dont think spread should be random. But it could be wider or at a different frequency if hit.

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@@Hard Way not to dwell on the BL stuff, I believe you have friends in that discord. They asked me how you did. That's all.

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I kind of want to get involved in the whole BTB/vehicle conversation, but I'm at work now so I can't.

Quick point though, is that the quoted bit is exactly how it's worked since Reach; that's how guys like Gamesager kept that fragile Banshee alive so long, by knowing exactly when to duck out and recover. The recovery for each stage of damage was tied to the user's shield - once your shield was fully restored your vehicle health was also restored to the maximum for that corresponding damage state. Basically it worked like Reach's health system without the healthpacks to recover from any lasting damage.

Too bad the obnoxious flip made that too easy to do.

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Too bad the obnoxious flip made that too easy to do.

 

I feel like this is a bit of an exaggeration. I can count on one hand the number of genuinely good Reach Banshee pilots - the ones who were game changing in competitive matches, not just when pubstomping. Even then it's the seven other guys on the team who are the enablers for their pilots to do what they do (or the complete lack of cohesion and awareness on the receiving end, which as we all know is extremely common with randoms).

 

I don't think the Reach Banshee was optimally balanced, but I also wouldn't want to nerf it into the ground.

I think there are a few different approaches that would make it less domineering and I'd start with removing the increased magnetism on the bomb when it's accelerated by a flip or roll, and then I'd slightly increase the cooldown on tricks with the intent of leaving windows of time in which the vehicle is vulnerable after an offensive play that aren't long enough to feel crippling for a pilot but are long enough to allow players to react. Performing tricks should also no longer break lock-on for tracking projectiles like a Hydra or Rocket Launcher.

I think that some lessons could also be taken from the Mantis, by giving the bomb a long (multikill-interrupting) reload after ~3 shots, forcing pilots to either use the plasma cannons or risky splatter manoeuvres if they want to make particularly high-impact plays consistently.

 

You could also possibly go even further if necessary by tying all of the vehicle's major functions (tricks, weapons, boost, and if it has one, shield) to an energy bar (heck, this might be an interesting concept for Covenant vehicles across the board as it could allow for more interesting and varied properties that are restrained by a shared resource but now my mind is wandering a little so I'll stop). The downside I see to this would be that it risks making the vehicle devalue offensive plays so much that it becomes another overly specialised zone-control tool like the H4 Mantis.

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@@Hard Way

 

For me, decreased weapon accuracy and handling are mostly just suggestions, I am not sure how they would be implemented if at all.

 

In H2, the Ghost would have one of it's cannons angled towards the side a bit, still technically straight and not random.

 

I definitely don't want situations like rare cases in Reach where you could blow off the Turret of a Scorpion and remove it's main cannon completely. I DO NOT want that.

 

Similar thing for the Ghost boost. At most, maybe increased boost cooldown as well as gun cooldown kinda like you suggested. But that is IF we decide to actually mess with weapons and mobility/handling.

 

Anyway, when I talk about exposing the driver of a Ghost after destroying it's hood, I am thinking of how easy it is melt the gunner off of a Warthog turret, magnetism aside. And a Ghost can't shoot and boost at the same time. A couple people could easily land good shots on the driver for overextending even for the most brief moment.

 

I personally feel like if you are going to play corners with a Ghost or any other vehicle, you should be rewarded by being able to stay alive indefinitely IMO. Especially since the limited range of effectiveness on most vehicle weapons requires you to push up some at least a little bit.

 

The Banshee losing it's flips but gaining a little bit more strafing ability could maybe work, along with eventually exposing the pilot.

 

I think I might like the H2 Ghost more than H3 because it only took about 1 and 1/2 mags of BR to blow off the Armor. As opposed to H3 where it took like 3 mags.

 

Also, can we please nerf the OP EMP? Making a vehicle immobile AND unable to defend by shooting is frustratingly excessive IMO, let me still be able to aim and shoot when EMP'd like in H3. The long range of tracking in H5 seems fine as long as it behaves more like the HCE Plasma Pistol.

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Well good thing nobody knows how I did at beach lan

 

Especially cause i never went

that's what you think...

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Still fairly new to the site, does team beyond have a spartan company? That Achilles helmet is what I need

Yes. But the leader wont let people in. And no one is trying to finish up the comms. >If only new people willing to work on them would be accepted in  :kappa:

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I feel like this is a bit of an exaggeration. I can count on one hand the number of genuinely good Reach Banshee pilots - the ones who were game changing in competitive matches, not just when pubstomping. Even then it's the seven other guys on the team who are the enablers for their pilots to do what they do (or the complete lack of cohesion and awareness on the receiving end, which as we all know is extremely common with randoms).

 

I don't think the Reach Banshee was optimally balanced, but I also wouldn't want to nerf it into the ground.

I think there are a few different approaches that would make it less domineering and I'd start with removing the increased magnetism on the bomb when it's accelerated by a flip or roll, and then I'd slightly increase the cooldown on tricks with the intent of leaving windows of time in which the vehicle is vulnerable after an offensive play that aren't long enough to feel crippling for a pilot but are long enough to allow players to react. Performing tricks should also no longer break lock-on for tracking projectiles like a Hydra or Rocket Launcher.

I think that some lessons could also be taken from the Mantis, by giving the bomb a long (multikill-interrupting) reload after ~3 shots, forcing pilots to either use the plasma cannons or risky splatter manoeuvres if they want to make particularly high-impact plays consistently.

You could also possibly go even further if necessary by tying all of the vehicle's major functions (tricks, weapons, boost, and if it has one, shield) to an energy bar (heck, this might be an interesting concept for Covenant vehicles across the board as it could allow for more interesting and varied properties that are restrained by a shared resource but now my mind is wandering a little so I'll stop). The downside I see to this would be that it risks making the vehicle devalue offensive plays so much that it becomes another overly specialised zone-control tool like the H4 Mantis.

Some good points. I feel like people forget the aspect of teamwork in using vehicles and fighting them.

 

With more exposed drivers and even weak points, it wouldn't take more than a couple people to punish an overextended Ghost or Banshee.

 

Those light vehicles are constantly harassing the enemy, if your team isn't taking advantage of that opening to push up, and the enemy team punishes your team for that, those light vehicles are going to be disabled and/or stolen.

 

The Mantis is a damn good example of enforcing teamwork for both sides via zone control. It takes a bit more effort to get kills with it, as well as take it down.

 

I don't think that every vehicle has to need multiple people before it encourages teamwork. The Warthogs are already awesome for that.

 

And yes, if there are evades and tricks, the lock-on weapons should still be able to track and curve in, making dodging a close one much more skillful.

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