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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I'm going to wait 15 months to patch my roof and just live with it just to see if I am able to adapt.

Imagine all the money you'd save on showers.

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I have fuck all hope in 343 delivering for the next Halo title. At this stage its better to be expect the worst, rather than hope for the best.

 

Think of it this way: if you have realistically minimal expectations for their next game, they can do nothing but exceed them. Personally, I'm fully expecting them to come out of the gate with a hot, new hero shooter about a year after that trend has died out. Surprise me, 343.

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Think of it this way: if you have realistically minimal expectations for their next game, they can do nothing but exceed them. Personally, I'm fully expecting them to come out of the gate with a hot, new hero shooter about a year after that trend has died out. Surprise me, 343.

 

Halo becomes a MOBA 2018.

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Think of it this way: if you have realistically minimal expectations for their next game, they can do nothing but exceed them. Personally, I'm fully expecting them to come out of the gate with a hot, new hero shooter about a year after that trend has died out. Surprise me, 343.

The "Mccree" of the game is just the Halo CE spartan with the pistol and we can create custom settings around using only that hero.  :weback:

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As frustrating as 343 is about a lot of things, they are trending upward, they do seem to learn from mistakes, and there is reason to hope their future games will be better.

 

Yes, they absolutely should have known better about a lot of their decisions (Halo 4 at launch, Spartan Charge, OP autos, H5 launch content drought, etc). Yes, they are inexcusably slow at fixing or even addressing problems (looking at you, Assault Rifle strength, Radar in competitive play, party restrictions...). However, when you look at the progression from H4 at launch to where we are now, and I'm talking both gameplay status and studio personnel status, they've come a long way. Contrast that with Bungie's trajectory the longer they controlled the franchise, and there's reason to be hopeful about the future of Halo.

There is no forward progress. They're still doubling down on thier flawed ideology. They just happened to copy fad mechanics that weren't quite as horrible for halo as the fad mechanics they copied last time.

 

Thier design ideology is incompatible with the creation of a great halo game and it remains intact.

 

They still believe that

 

1. Immersion in MP is paramount. And that somehow the way to immerse the player in being a spartan is to make him feel remarkably similar to the characters in other games that are not spartans.

 

2. Halo needs a bridge to other games or people won't play halo. And the way to do this is to "modernise" halo. Aka copy mechanics.

 

If you actually look from reach TU to h5 there is a noticeable downwards trajectory as they've developed and doubled down on this flawed ideology.

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There is no forward progress. They're still doubling down on thier flawed ideology. They just happened to copy fad mechanics that weren't quite as horrible for halo as the fad mechanics they copied last time.

 

Thier design ideology is incompatible with the creation of a great halo game and it remains intact.

 

They still believe that

 

1. Immersion in MP is paramount. And that somehow the way to immerse the player in being a spartan is to make him feel remarkably similar to the characters in other games that are not spartans.

 

2. Halo needs a bridge to other games or people won't play halo. And the way to do this is to "modernise" halo. Aka copy mechanics.

 

If you actually look from reach TU to h5 there is a noticeable downwards trajectory as they've developed and doubled down on this flawed ideology.

The game's not perfect, but to say there is no forward progress means you either don't remember just how bad Halo 4 was or that you are just looking for something to hate. We got powerups back on maps, (some) static item spawns, all forms of spread and bloom removed on weapons that matter for the first time ever. It's still got a way to go, but the foundation is there.

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I was more so going off of Reach's and H4's TU. As much as I know MCC and Halo 5 happened... I hold a tiny bit of hope that 343i can go back to the old ways of fixing shit if it's fucking broken. Unlike now.

I understand where you are coming from, but they have had so many opportunities to improve H5 and it has instead just got worse and worse IMO. Their recent actions dictate to me what will happen with H6, and judging by that, it doesn't look good.  I don't really have an semblance of faith in them, I instead just hope that I am wrong. 

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The game's not perfect, but to say there is no forward progress means you either don't remember just how bad Halo 4 was or that you are just looking for something to hate. We got powerups back on maps, (some) static item spawns, all forms of spread and bloom removed on weapons that matter for the first time ever. It's still got a way to go, but the foundation is there.

The foundation is not there. Not at all. It won't be there until 343 changes thier ideology.

 

Swapping the fad of the day mechanics from perks, loudouts, killstreaks to thrust, slide, mantle, ads, infinite sprint is not a forward step. It's a side step.

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The foundation is not there. Not at all. It won't be there until 343 changes thier ideology.

 

Swapping the fad of the day mechanics from perks, loudouts, killstreaks to thrust, slide, mantle, ads, infinite sprint is not a forward step. It's a side step.

But it is there. Once you scrub away the shitty mechanics and rethink how the weapons are balanced in this game, you have the base for a pretty alright Halo game.

inb4 H5 has no positives

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But it is there. Once you scrub away the shitty mechanics and rethink how the weapons are balanced in this game, you have the base for a pretty alright Halo game.

inb4 H5 has no positives

The evolved settings prove that.
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But it is there. Once you scrub away the shitty mechanics and rethink how the weapons are balanced in this game, you have the base for a pretty alright Halo game.

inb4 H5 has no positives

Once you scrub away the mechanics?

 

What?

 

They're not going away and until 343's ideology changes they will either be joined by new fad mechanics or replaced by new fad mechanics.

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Once you scrub away the mechanics?

 

What?

 

They're not going away and until 343's ideology changes they will either be joined by new fad mechanics or replaced by new fad mechanics.

But if they did go away, Halo wouldn't be in such a bad place.

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Going from the Reach TU to H4 launch was admittedly both baffling and extremely disappointing, but I tend to count H4 as their starting point because it's their first original game. And obviously it was a dumpster fire. It did get a MASSIVE improvement with the Turbo update, which I tend to think a lot of people here never played. We got on-map powerups and weapons back, a godsend of a weapon rebalance, and much better gametypes/maps in every playlist (Rumble Pro was my jam).

 

So definite, unquestionable improvement there.

 

Then H5 comes out. And for all it's faults, which I'm totally aware of and in agreement with, it DID improve from the H4 Turbo update. Equal starts, ranks, descope, static timers, sprint nerf, powerups, centered reticule, no bloom/spread precisions, better maps, all of the CTF changes, ditching the stupid CoD-esque point system and bringing back more Halo-like UI, and probably more I'm forgetting. You'd be hard pressed to argue H5 is worse than H4.

 

So progress there too. You could make a valid argument that Halo 4 had better aiming (duh), a much better suite of gametypes (KotH, Ricochet and Team Regicide being the ones I miss the most), and that H4 FFA after the update was a lot better than H5's FFA (I know I think it was). But all in all H5 improved massively on H4's shortcomings.

 

And then you have launch H5 to now. How on earth could anyone make the argument that H5 is all in all worse now than it was at launch? Population decline and server degradation would be the two things I would cite, but when you weigh that against the massive influx of content (gametypes, maps, playlists, weapons, skins, vehicles, forge, firefight, etc), I think holding launch H5 over current H5 is once again a nearly impossible argument to defend. So once again, progress. We are SO much better off now than we were in November of 2012, and to deny that is to CHOOSE to be angry.

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Frankly, I'm not desperate enough for 343 to make a good Halo game to give them more credit than they deserve. They went from their best work to date (Reach TU and NBNS), to their worst (launch H4), improved that significantly with Turbo, and then moved laterally at best to H5. I think you can EASILY make the argument that it's worse than H4 Turbo. I would honestly rather play MCC H4 than this mess.
  • ​Equal starts? And a TIERED SANDBOX.
  • Sprint nerf? No. They ADDED a ton of other movement gimmicks that make it much worse. The shield recharge penalty (which is on top of the fastest recharge delay in the series) is a marginal nerf at best.
  • ​Ranks? Fucking useless without any way to account for parties and boosting.
  • No game-types. Mostly slayer in a Bo7? Beautiful.
  • No meaningful improvements to settings or balance WHATSOEVER since launch.
  • Broken aiming.
  • Dedicated servers (that have gotten more and more broken with time).
  • UNGODLY amounts of bullet magnetism and lag compensation.
  • They removed flinch and added back descope, flag juggling, etc. OK.
  • ​Static timers that also just happen to tell you exactly when the weapon is picked up? OK.
  • They brought Halo to PC, too. Too bad the port is absolute garbage.

​And no, they don't get credit for "launch H5 to now." They launched an incomplete game and then finished it over the next year (while core features degraded). That is not improvement on their part. That is called "Early Access." A lot of those features are functionally irrelevant (like half decent social), because people stopped playing the game before they were released.

​I will give them that they produced the best forge in the history of the series. It's a shame that it's wasted on this game.
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Going from the Reach TU to H4 launch was admittedly both baffling and extremely disappointing, but I tend to count H4 as their starting point because it's their first original game. And obviously it was a dumpster fire. It did get a MASSIVE improvement with the Turbo update, which I tend to think a lot of people here never played. We got on-map powerups and weapons back, a godsend of a weapon rebalance, and much better gametypes/maps in every playlist (Rumble Pro was my jam).

 

So definite, unquestionable improvement there.

 

Then H5 comes out. And for all it's faults, which I'm totally aware of and in agreement with, it DID improve from the H4 Turbo update. Equal starts, ranks, descope, static timers, sprint nerf, powerups, centered reticule, no bloom/spread precisions, better maps, all of the CTF changes, ditching the stupid CoD-esque point system and bringing back more Halo-like UI, and probably more I'm forgetting. You'd be hard pressed to argue H5 is worse than H4.

 

So progress there too. You could make a valid argument that Halo 4 had better aiming (duh), a much better suite of gametypes (KotH, Ricochet and Team Regicide being the ones I miss the most), and that H4 FFA after the update was a lot better than H5's FFA (I know I think it was). But all in all H5 improved massively on H4's shortcomings.

 

And then you have launch H5 to now. How on earth could anyone make the argument that H5 is all in all worse now than it was at launch? Population decline and server degradation would be the two things I would cite, but when you weigh that against the massive influx of content (gametypes, maps, playlists, weapons, skins, vehicles, forge, firefight, etc), I think holding launch H5 over current H5 is once again a nearly impossible argument to defend. So once again, progress. We are SO much better off now than we were in November of 2012, and to deny that is to CHOOSE to be angry.

 

You are 100% correct BUT....

 

I give less weight to some of the things about Halo 5's improvement since launch because many of them (skins for example) have no actual impact on the way the game plays.  Many of the additions in terms of content are just not good.  All of the disk maps are better than the DLC maps.  There are a lot of things that have been added that are really just "MOAR stuff" without actually improving the game in any meaningful way.

 

I would argue the only things that have are forge and social playlists, and those are staple halo features that should have been present at launch.  To not include forge is one thing, i would rather they delay it and get it right than release it broken.  But to not have ANY social at launch, then having it be as sweaty as ranked when it did arrive, really shows a disconnect between development and consumer that I thought would have been bridged after the dumpster fire that was Halo 4.

 

The custom browser is a cool addition, but its lacking some simple functionality that would make it much more useful

 

It really seems clear to me that something happened during development that really delayed the game and caused them to have to release an incomplete product.  No forge at launch, axing split screen at the last minute, 3 throwaway missions in the campaign, no dev made big team, etc.

 

The tragedy here is that the things that would REALLY improve the game have hardly been touched.  Only a couple niche weapons have been rebalanced.

Radar changes are just getting tested now.  no changes have been made to automatics or ez-mode rifles.  No dev-made big team maps have been created. The aiming is still janky, even on PC after multiple attempts at fixing both. The UI is still so awkward (how did we get from H3/Reach to where we are now with the UI....)

 

The things that would have made a real quality of life improvement for all players have hardly been touched.

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I consider Halo 5 several steps back from Halo 4 in a lot of ways. Long ass animations, more movement tech, Ads, worse weapon balancing, more auto aim, etc

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But if they did go away, Halo wouldn't be in such a bad place.

Agreed. Ripmonkey said it right, Evolved setting prove that.  Evolved settings are a blast to play, but get old playing the same 10-12 opponents over and over. Evolved settings would be even more fun if there was better aiming, a harder to use sniper, and better maps.  But those things are out of our hands. I'd say with evolved settings, Halo could be in great shape.  However, 343 refuses to give us a fucking classic Halo experience.  They teas us with these little classic weekend playlists that aren't even close to resembling classic settings.  BTB is given the shaft with no maps, and Warzone is BoreZone.  H5 could be great, but 343 is either hard headed or just ignorant to the wants of classic Halo fans.   

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