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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I get the logic for wanting a utility rifle for context purposes, but in my opinion having a small and simple weapon like a Magnum as the utility weapon is a really cool thing to have ("Arena-esque"). It's some really cool imagery when the actual potential of a weapon is greater than the perceived strength. It's why I like the Gunfighter so much. Small, simple, difficult, but has a ridiculously high potential.

 

The concept of "going over the Magnum's head" is easily avoidable with more niche roles/traits for weapons (even rifles) and a less saturated sandbox.

 

 

I will say that I really liked the concept behind the balance between the DMR and Magnum in default Reach.

 

The DMR served as the clear utility weapon, with more range and ammo, with a steady fire rate.

 

The Magnum had the exact same damage per shot with less range and ammo, but with a faster fire rate and reload speed.

 

The DMR was good for the all-around stuff, and sitting back and teamshooting as well.

 

The Magnum however was better for CQC 1v1s and clean up kills, only tempered by its increased Bloom compared to the DMR. If you paced shots it was nearly as effective as the DMR at range.

 

I loved this balance between the two as they both had a clear niche and role in the sandbox as separate precision weapons.

 

Bloom obviously was very flawed, and removing it made the Magnum actually too easy to spam in Reach MLG apparently.

 

However, instead of the random Bloom, this kind of balance could still work if the Magnum had perfectly vertical recoil that kicked more as more shots were spammed. It would keep it in check while retaining its potential without making it completely random.

 

The H5 Beta Magnum also had a similar balance by being a faster 5sk than the DMR, the only problem was the scope recoil was too clunky and random.

 

I was very disappointed to see that instead of just making the scope recoil on the Magnum predictable, they just removed the recoil and nerfed the fire rate to make the Magnum an inferior DMR.

 

And the Gunfighter Magnum would be awesome at least, BUT they nerfed it to a 6sk and also completely removed the scope, and is then nowhere near as much fun.

 

I would love for that kind of balance and distinction between the DMR and Magnum to actually exist. I could care less which one is spawned with if done appropriately.

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I will say that I really liked the concept behind the balance between the DMR and Magnum in default Reach.

 

The DMR served as the clear utility weapon, with more range and ammo, with a steady fire rate.

 

The Magnum had the exact same damage per shot with less range and ammo, but with a faster fire rate and reload speed.

 

The DMR was good for the all-around stuff, and sitting back and teamshooting as well.

 

The Magnum however was better for CQC 1v1s and clean up kills, only tempered by its increased Bloom compared to the DMR. If you paced shots it was nearly as effective as the DMR at range.

 

I loved this balance between the two as they both had a clear niche and role in the sandbox as separate precision weapons.

 

Bloom obviously was very flawed, and removing it made the Magnum actually too easy to spam in Reach MLG apparently.

 

However, instead of the random Bloom, this kind of balance could still work if the Magnum had perfectly vertical recoil that kicked more as more shots were spammed. It would keep it in check while retaining its potential without making it completely random.

 

The H5 Beta Magnum also had a similar balance by being a faster 5sk than the DMR, the only problem was the scope recoil was too clunky and random.

 

I was very disappointed to see that instead of just making the scope recoil on the Magnum predictable, they just removed the recoil and nerfed the fire rate to make the Magnum an inferior DMR.

 

And the Gunfighter Magnum would be awesome at least, BUT they nerfed it to a 6sk and also completely removed the scope, and is then nowhere near as much fun.

 

I would love for that kind of balance and distinction between the DMR and Magnum to actually exist. I could care less which one is spawned with if done appropriately.

The Reach beta had it down perfect with the recoil on both weapons. Shame they removed that in favor of the random option.

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Hey

 

 

 

 

 

 

Watch it

 

The H5 sniper is objectively the HARDEST one to use.  Period.  End of discussion.  No rebuttals necessary.

 

Is anybody opposed to them getting rid of all recoil? Just make the weapons harder to use in ways that make sense. 

 

I wouldn't flat out ban it simply because that is a tool that can be used to get the "feel" and "ease of use" ratio right.  I don't think excessive recoil belongs in halo a la destiny or CoD, but if it fulfills the purpose well and isn't random i think its fine.

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Is anybody opposed to them getting rid of all recoil? Just make the weapons harder to use in ways that make sense.

Ya. I don't like recoil in halo.

 

I prefer it when the gun shoots straight all the time and you don't have to fight to keep the reticule where you want it to be.

 

There are several other ways to balance the ease of use and range of weapons.

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Is anybody opposed to them getting rid of all recoil? Just make the weapons harder to use in ways that make sense. 

Recoil is a way to make weapons harder to use and enforces weapon ranges in a nonrandom way. It's not necessary on all weapons, but I like it on some guns.

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Is anybody opposed to them getting rid of all recoil? Just make the weapons harder to use in ways that make sense. 

 

Kind of?

 

Fixed , Non-Excessive Vertical Recoil seems like a good way of balancing weapons at long-range by forcing you to fire slower to re-adjust on targets, but without the random nature of bloom or bullet spread.

 

The question remains whether weapons need to be curbed from long-range use in the first place, but it's one of the least invasive ways of accomplishing that.

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I also don't know any H1 player that is worse at H3 than H1 unless that H1 player did not try to learn the game competitively. Team Classic almost took Final Boss at MLG Meadowlands 2008. One of the best CE players in the world, LegendPimps was on that team. 

This has to be the most incorrect statement I have ever seen. How about almost every single one of them that I can think of? Ogre 1 and 2 were worse at Halo 3 comparatively to their individual rankings in Halo 1, Walshy, Legend wasn't even good at Halo 3 really, or at least he was not successful on a team other than the one event you mention. 

 

I don't think there is any Halo 1 pro that is better at Halo 3 other than Tsquared arguably, and he was never a top tier player in Halo 3...I'm not sure how he was regarded in Halo 1 among pros but I am pretty sure he was up there right? I mean that statement is so wrong it's crazy. 

 

 

Edit: Also sorry if I am coming off like I am talking shit, but I just have to vehemently disagree with you on that point. Also on the Tsquared point, he I want to amend that to...he was not someone who was a top 10 individual player in Halo 3 when all was said and done, I don't think at least.

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First game this year.

 

Makes me up against the same T4 that had 3 onix and a champion in.

 

I'm normally in low diamond. Barely got though without a goose.

 

Matchmaking is terrible.

 

Can't get a game on Swat, Breakout or snipers.

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Yea, I guess a bit of recoil is okay for autos but the H1 AR didn't have recoil and it was fine. It wasn't until the H2 SMG that Halo had any type of recoil and I think they added it to make dual wielding harder to use. 

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I have no bias against Halo 3. I've played every Halo for their entire lifespan and found a lot of joy in ALL of them. I put 3 years into that game, thousands of games, watched EVERY tournament for it, I even reffed the 08 season with MLG. I love MLG H3. But time and perspective have not been kind to that game.

 

I'm one of the most objective critics of the Halo series on this site. I give credit where credit is due. The problem is that, comparatively, H3 doesn't deserve a lot of credit. And a lot of competitive Halo fans came in during H3 and have a soft spot for it, and overlook a lot of its shortcomings, or in your case view them as positives. The truth is that it was a relatively shallow game that did more to disempower the individual than almost any game in the series.

What? How have time and perspective not been kind to Halo 3? It still feels pretty good even on broken-ass MCC. It plays so much better than Halo 1 and Halo 2 do on MCC (which is not the fault of those games) so I don't see how time has not been kind? The exact same thing could be said of H1 or H2 or any older title, I really don't understand that statement. 

 

"Shallow game" Dude come on, you are saying Halo Reach is better and it disempowered the individual more than Halo 3 did and the vast majority of matches were played on two robo-cock silver forge remakes on Sanctuary and Pit, or you could play mediocre Zealot/Countdown which were scaled for sprint as someone already stated. Reach was literally the most shallow Halo title ever. 

 

As I have already said in response to something Teapot said, which is completely false, tons of Pros and top tier pros from Halo 1 and Halo 2 were worse at Halo 3 (Walshy, Strongside, Ogre 1/2, Tsquared, Shockwave, Bestman, Defy, Gandhi, Legend, Ant, etc.). Now don't get me wrong this doesn't necessarily mean anything, as players who were great at prior, more skillful titles (h1-h3-Reach even) have dropped off on the individual rankings in Halo 5. 

 

But, Halo 5 is clearly a completely different game, similar to Halo 4 and even more amplified, where as Halo 3 did not incorporate sprint/thrust/abilities/etc.etc.etc. and clearly had the most skillful sniping in the entire series, can we at least agree to that point? So it had straight up BRing, where players like Walshy for example had weak individual skill at BRing and Sniping in comparison to the prior titles. It's not like everyone is spawning with an AR, sprint, radar, thrust, slide, embarrassing ass game mechanics, in Halo 3. Clearly the skill gap was there and respectable. 

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After going back and watching the old H3 trailers.. I miss when Halo had that military, boots-on-the-ground vibe to it. I can't stand this power ranger/avengers shit going on in Halo recently.

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This has to be the most incorrect statement I have ever seen. How about almost every single one of them that I can think of? Ogre 1 and 2 were worse at Halo 3 comparatively to their individual rankings in Halo 1, Walshy, Legend wasn't even good at Halo 3 really, or at least he was not successful on a team other than the one event you mention.

 

I don't think there is any Halo 1 pro that is better at Halo 3 other than Tsquared arguably, and he was never a top tier player in Halo 3...I'm not sure how he was regarded in Halo 1 among pros but I am pretty sure he was up there right? I mean that statement is so wrong it's crazy.

It's unfortunate that's the only portion of my post that caught your attention. I don't find it surprising that some top pros from halo 1's era had fallen off by Halo 3. You think that it's because of halo 3's skill gap? Most halo 1 pros stopped playing at halo 2.

 

I wasn't comparing people who placed at early MLG events, but everyone besides ogre 2 and Walshy couldn't hold on to success from the h1 era. Look at all the halo 2 pros and semi pros. They all played halo 1 at some point against each other at LANs. I'm talking the likes of ghost, cpt anarchy, Elamite, ace, Mackeo, shock wave etc. There's too many to list, but they are all way better at halo 3. Ace, legit, and ryanoob come to mind as well. They are top halo pros with many years and games experience and they are amazing at h3 and nowhere close to the top at h1.

 

I thought your initial statement was that people who played all 3 games, not specifically pros who had placed in 2002-2004 that somehow are interested in a completely different game 4-6 years down the line. 90% of h1 ppl stopped playing in h2. All we can go off of is h2/h3 pros who have played all three, in which I do have a lot of names I can add to the list.

 

You didn't provide anything in your first post, cite Walsh that ogre 2 and ogre 1 as examples but that's it? Besides, you aren't measuring how much has changed since h1 was on the circuit. In terms of where skill ceiling is today, halo 1's is vastly different and neither Walshy or T2 would be considered a top player or even someone to contest patch and legend for that spot. Ogre 2 can, but he's put in a ridiculous amount of time.

 

@@Hard Way

By the way I started to play actual Halo CE 2v2s and learn the game in 2009, right after the first year of Halo 3 on the circuit. I can't attribute any of it to nostalgia or playing it because I was better at it. I got in late and was trash, but I at least understood why the game was so good compared to the others and wanted to learn it.

 

 

 

My biggest fear with H3A is the fact that many started playing competitive halo at that point and hold it as the standard that we should be going back to. I think halo 3 was one of the best packaged games in the series, but from a competitive stand point it's pretty far from being on top yet people are ok with it. Many pros hold the opinion that h1 2v2s are trash and overrated, but none of those guys have given it a significant chance from what I've been able to research.

 

@@Joe Tea i saw your edit and don't worry about it. We've talked once before about a similar topic and I enjoyed doing so. I appreciate your posts even if I disagree with your opinions. I enjoy discussing and debating games so it's actually cool to see someone else's opinion as well as their reasons behind them.

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-

Sorry I was just about to edit my post again and say that I enjoyed the rest of your post and agreed with a lot more points or...disagreed less passionately with other points. Let me read your new post before I respond, but I saw H3A and I will say that I strongly do no think that will be released.

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No prob, I'm on my phone so I prob won't post any actual responses till I can get to a computer tomorrow. One thing I didn't bother bringing up yet is the level of individual skill versus team skill found in competitive shooters and the balance between them.

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I wasn't really comparing H1/H2 to snipers, just stating the fact that spawning with a Sniper increases your 'high kill potential', not the mechanics or skill gap's involved in the games. You still do have to punish someone by hitting your shot with a sniper rifle if they are in a bad position or out in the open, and let's exclude Halo 5 where any drool cup can use the sniper with it's massive hit box to no scope or hit headshots while aiming at someone's thoracic spine. 

 

It just didn't seem relevant to me at all. If anything, it sounds Waypointy when someone complains about precision weapons being too good, and draws parallels to spawning with a sniper rifle. Arguing in favor of how H3 forces you to move forward just to kill the guy who's dancing around in your reticle because it encourages map movement...well that that sounds a lot like the old pro-SMG starts arguments I used to read on Bnet.

 

I' don't take any offense but I didn't start playing in Halo 3, I already said that I played Halo 1 (split screen/campaign...local) and I guess I started at Halo 2 for online play, probably more hours than any other halo title or comparable to my time in Halo 3. 

 

Later on you bring up H3's "smooth movement" and "good strafe", which calls into question your experience with the first two games. Both H1 and H2 had a better strafe. H1 had a viable crouch, and H2 had smoother jumping. Like most aspects of the game, H3's movement is a slightly worse H2.

 

You cannot use default Halo 3 as your argument. I thought it would be a given that we were talking about MLG settings Halo 3. If you want to handicap my position like that then we have to assume Halo 2 is SMG popcorn starts, Reach has bloom and Armorlock/abilities, sprint, etc. The only way to play Halo 3 is on MLG settings, which aren't even a dramatic change. 

 

Actually it'd be more like BR starts default H2 and TU Reach, but whatever. But even at it's best, H3 still has totally stupid scenarios like shooting cross-base on Narrows, S2 to S2 or Needler to courtyard on Pit, Open Ramp to Bottom Hill on Construct. These are situations where players can routinely withstand double digit shots online, and sometimes even on LAN. It's absurd how someone can sit there and justify someone being able to live through TEN accurate shots from your starting utility weapon, but H3 kids wait in line to defend that shit.

 

The thing is, Onslaught is a forge map and suffers from the Foundry registration issues/lag, but what you are totally omitting is the core mechanics of Halo 3, the fluid movement in strafing and gandhi hopping/jumping etc, that was much more fluid and less stiff than it's predecessors Halo1/2, so when you are strafing at an effective level/speed combined with leading your shots, combined with, yes, the ineffective registration/range of the gun itself to an extent, it is going to be near impossible to impossible to cleanly 4 shot someone across the map. That is how the game is. That is the range of the weapon, and I do not find a problem with that. 

 

So here we have H3's forge maps contributing to poor hit registration, but people want to shit on v7 Reach because of it's forge maps...right...At least v7's maps don't eat your bullets. In fact, shots register pretty damn well in that game all around.  And careful here, because it almost sounds like you're using "ineffective registration" and bullet spread as positives when you lump them in with the other things in that sentence.  But dude, I don't need to take those into consideration when I can shoot at someone standing fucking still and still not even be ABLE to 4 shot them.

 

I'm not gonna give H3 bonus points for it's movement when it's extremely similar to H2's and imo v7 Reach's too (barring jump height). To me it's status quo and not noteworthy. The only thing the game did exceptionally well is have a projectile starting weapon. That made close and mid range fights fun. It would have made long range fights fun too if it weren't for it's random spread and poor hit registration.

 

"And people bitch about Halo 5's escapability" - Come on, Halo 5 has sprint, thrust, slide, clamber, spartan charge, ground pound and radar. To escape in Halo 3 took SKILL, you had to be sneaky like Pistola, it was a skill to move across the map and outsmart other players which was effectively stripped away in Halo 5 with all of the aforementioned features. Strafing actually mattered in Halo 3 where as you have to crouch-strafe like an absolute dickhead in Halo 5 and thrust/counter-thrust etc. and it's only effective because the aiming mechanics are so bad that it's harder to hit pistol shots than hitting any other utility shots in other Halo titles, oh and you can just AR people while crouch strafing. 

 

You're conflating escaping with unpredictable map movement. Saying "escaping took skill in H3" is fucking laughable when you can literally make someone reload before killing you without having missed a shot. Give me a fucking break.  

 

We're on the same page as far as navigating the map. I don't like how H5 lets you soar anywhere in seconds. 

 

You're gonna bag on crouch strafing now? Really? Are we just going to hate on any depth other Halo games have because H3 is shallow as fuck and doesn't have any of it's own? Dude, having a viable crouch you can work into your strafe is a good thing. Say what you will about thruster in pistol battles, (there are pros and cons and I could take it or leave it), but the crouch is something that H5 actually nailed and it deserves credit for it.

 

We can just agree to disagree about this because citing the Reach DMR as a better weapon than the H3 BR is laughable to me. I also don't consider double-shotting to be an inherent part of the H2 BR but that is less egregious imo. 

 

Yeah, a perfectly accurate single shot weapon that is capable of killing opponents at any range, how laughable. I'd much rather get partial credit for half-misses, be able to sweep for headshots, and not be able to kill people that walk around in the open because I'm not close enough to hit them with a football.

 

And like it or not, double shotting is a part of the H2 BR. Closing your eyes and plugging your ears doesn't make it go away.

 

It's not worth arguing because I know what the case is here. There are a lot of people who are much worse at Halo 3 or downright terrible and think they are much better at H1/H2 (not saying you, but in general this is true). I'm not even trying to claim that Halo 3 has a higher skill gap than H1/H2, but I am trying to say that it's skill gap is EASILY third best in the series (MLG settings obviously) and it's a lot closer than what some people here think. 

 

Like Teapot said earlier, it's not hard to be good at 3. People that were good at 1 and 2 were also good at 3. That's because it's a shallow game and there isn't much to learn.  If H5 turned off radar and got rid of the AR as a starting weapon, you could make a pretty convincing argument that H5 is a much harder game, but we don't really need to go there.  Honestly I don't even really want to. I just think the game is really close to being excellent and a lot of its good qualities get overlooked.

 

I would however like to hear why you believe H3 v8 blows Reach v7 out of the water so bad, bc imo they're extremely close in merit.

 

And no, the gap is not closer than we think. H1 embarrasses H3 in almost every way, for reasons I'll get into soon.

 

I really don't think nading down weapons or executing random spawns should factor into a skill gap either. That is game knowledge. That is the reason Halo 1 has such a "legendary" skill gap IMO, because barely anyone fucking played it, so you have these super important features that barely anyone knows, and then kids with less ACTUAL SKILL in shooting the weapons will just have a massive advantage. It's like not knowing any of the spawns in Halo 3, not knowing any of the strat, but worse. Also Halo 1 was mostly played on PC and that was with a mouse no? 

 

And here we have the ignorance floodgates opening.  So far, you've disregarded cross mapping, doubleshotting, BXR's, crouch strafing, nading weapons and powerups, and spawning your partner as valid Halo skills. However, you have made a point to emphasize the importance shooting and managing shot leading. It sounds to me like someone that is insecure about the depth of H3 trying to downplay the depth of every other game in the series, and trying to boil Halo down to just moving and shooting.

 

Your statements about an inflated skill gap in H1 reveal your ignorance on the subject. People have been playing the game for over 15 years and they're still learning shit. And the gap between the top 4 players in the game and everyone else is mind blowing. At Beach LAN 5 I got to watch what might be the top 2 players in the world team up in a 2v2 tournament, and they played a team of a couple top 10 players. It was a massacre. I'm talking 50-12, 50-20, etc.  The game allows room for the best players to absolutely dominate. The Ogre twins never lost a series playing together. Ever.  For like a decade, it didn't happen once.  It took until Halo 3's 3rd season for the same team to even win back to back tournaments.

 

I just can't get over how you want to throw away all of a game's depth and knowledge and boil it down to raw mechanics as to who is worthy of winning, but then I remember that you're defending Halo 3, which is all it really has going for it. Have you ever considered that if a team doesn't know how to spawn their partner, nade weapons or powerups, or work in an unorthodox strafe, that maybe, just maybe, they actually fucking deserve to lose?

 

And for the love of God, NO, it was not mostly played on PC. All of the major tournaments and respected competitive gameplay happened on Xbox. Halo PC is a joke, and almost all of the games being played on it are Rockets or Shotguns only or some stupid shit like that. Unlearn that notion because it's wrong as fuck.

 

I know that last paragraph is heresy here, but that's what I believe is the truth. Halo 1's skill gap is overrated because so few people played it and actually know the game/strategy of said game, and PC's were used by the highest populations that played the game. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a high skill gap, but Teapot's signature is so hyperbolic when it comes to skill gap.

*Sorry, got a little LIT during this rant lmao. I'm sure most will disagree with the H1 sacrilege 

 

Just because most people are ignorant of how the game plays doesn't mean it's overrated. Good players will shit on average players so much harder in H1 than any other Halo, and the best players will do the same to good players. It's not even close. Teapot's signature isn't even hyperbolic. It really is that much different when you compare 1 to 3. I highly recommend you actually play it sometime.  I know I've been a bit of a dick, but if you'd like to, I'd be happy to play some MCC with you, show you what I know, and get you into some good competitive games so you can see for yourself. You're doing yourself a great injustice by not experiencing it.  Just ask @@Batchford.

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The Reach beta had it down perfect with the recoil on both weapons. Shame they removed that in favor of the random option.

Wow really? That would make no sense to just do the random stuff especially if recoil is in place.

 

Curious, is there any gameplay videos to be found of the Reach Beta? I didn't yet have XBL at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also for everyone else: I really only want subtle recoil on certain weapons, specifically for my preferred design of the Magnum, autos, and the BR, to permanently replace the random spread/bloom mechanic.

 

I otherwise don't want recoil on most weapons. I would also prefer that all this go hand in hand with proper projectile weapons as well.

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Hce is very skillful. But it is also inherently snowbally.

 

Citing lopsided scores doesn't always necessarily link just to skill gap. Smg spawns produces way more blowouts than br starts. H5 slayer has all kinds of blow outs. Fuck, ARs on standoff pretty much only ends in 50 to less than 15 games. Doesn't mean they're skillful. Means they snowball out of control.

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