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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Have I ever mentioned that Mythic WZFF sucks? I bet that 343 themselves haven't beat this mode once, outside of their pro team (if that even means anything).

I mean, it's beatable, with a team, of course. Not impossible, but definitely something I wouldn't solo queue, and feel bad for those who do.

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I can't be the only one triggered that I keep seeing Octagon warm-ups with 16 people, or maps without their proper gametypes being played.

 

Also, is it just me or is there only ever 9 pages of custom games?

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You know I've heard the argument that halo ce dumbed down shooters and made them accessible to people "who never played half life" as the person put it.

 

My response is; why must you play half life to be into shooters? And how does not having to play older shooters in general mean halo dumbed down the genre?

 

The whole premise seems elitist to me.

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You know I've heard the argument that halo ce dumbed down shooters and made them accessible to people "who never played half life" as the person put it.

 

My response is; why must you play half life to be into shooters? And how does not having to play older shooters in general mean halo dumbed down the genre?

 

The whole premise seems elitist to me.

 

Tbf, Halo CE was a dumbed down FPS compared to the stuff that was on PC at the time. Back then, concepts like bullet magnetism, two weapon limits, no melee weapon, controllers for aiming, etc. were all pretty out-there concepts. 

 

There is truth to what old FPS players used to say, but I think alot of it came from the fact that their FPS of choice wasn't really relevant outside of the niche groups that played them and they saw the success of other franchises with such "casual" mechanics with a bit of distaste since those titles didn't accurately represent the FPS skill standards at the time.

 

Also, were we calling people scrubs in here? Did I miss the party?  :kappa:

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Tbf, Halo CE was a dumbed down FPS compared to the stuff that was on PC at the time. Back then, concepts like bullet magnetism, two weapon limits, no melee weapon, controllers for aiming, etc. were all pretty out-there concepts.

 

There is truth to what old FPS players used to say, but I think alot of it came from the fact that their FPS of choice wasn't really relevant outside of the niche groups that played them and they saw the success of other franchises with such "casual" mechanics with a bit of distaste since those titles didn't accurately represent the FPS skill standards at the time.

 

Also, were we calling people scrubs in here? Did I miss the party? :kappa:

I never understood why these things constituted "dumbing down". Goldeneye and Perfect Dark dumbed down the genre to its bare minimum in order to make it fun on console. bungie incorporated many of the FPS principles that Rare had to shed in order to make the game work on the n64 controller-creating a game that was fun, but still had a large skill gap, despite aim assists.

 

Bungie brought the console fps closer to its roots, and did so admirably given the limitations of a controller as an input method.

 

I don't think halo dumbed down shooters. It smartened them up on consoles.

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I never understood why these things constituted "dumbing down". Goldeneye and Perfect Dark dumbed down the genre to its bare minimum in order to make it fun on console. bungie incorporated many of the FPS principles that Rare had to shed in order to make the game work on the n64 controller-creating a game that was fun, but still had a large skill gap, despite aim assists.

 

Bungie brought the console fps closer to its roots, and did so admirably given the limitations of a controller as an input method.

 

I don't think halo dumbed down shooters. It smartened them up on consoles.

 

Well it raised a bar that couldn't go anywhere but up honestly... FPS design on consoles was still incredibly convoluted and wonky.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that Halo removed alot of the variables that Arena shooter players valued as skills that they aimed to perfect. Armor + Health pickups replaced by regenerating shields and 1 full health pack, movement being so clunky and slow compared to Arena shooters, weapons balanced completely differently to how traditional Arena FPS weapons worked (Rockets 1hk vs. Rocket Tube in Quake), Nades always available rather than grenade launcher weapon you had to pick up on map, etc.

 

There were alot of reasons that Halo got flak for daring to call itself an "Arena FPS" that do have some validity to them. Now the fact that Halo turned out great and continues to do well in its own niche is just a product of it's own uniqueness in design, and I'm okay with that.

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I never understood why these things constituted "dumbing down". Goldeneye and Perfect Dark dumbed down the genre to its bare minimum in order to make it fun on console. bungie incorporated many of the FPS principles that Rare had to shed in order to make the game work on the n64 controller-creating a game that was fun, but still had a large skill gap, despite aim assists.

 

Bungie brought the console fps closer to its roots, and did so admirably given the limitations of a controller as an input method.

 

I don't think halo dumbed down shooters. It smartened them up on consoles.

Look at quake. Then loo at ce. It's definitely dumbed down.

 

Still an amazing game though and in a lot of ways a better game imo.

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Well it raised a bar that couldn't go anywhere but up honestly... FPS design on consoles was still incredibly convoluted and wonky.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that Halo removed alot of the variables that Arena shooter players valued as skills that they aimed to perfect. Armor + Health pickups replaced by regenerating shields and 1 full health pack, movement being so clunky and slow compared to Arena shooters, weapons balanced completely differently to how traditional Arena FPS weapons worked (Rockets 1hk vs. Rocket Tube in Quake), Nades always available rather than grenade launcher weapon you had to pick up on map, etc.

 

There were alot of reasons that Halo got flak for daring to call itself an "Arena FPS" that do have some validity to them. Now the fact that Halo turned out great and continues to do well in its own niche is just a product of it's own uniqueness in design, and I'm okay with that.

Aren't we talking about Halo:CE though? If it raised the bar, then why are we talking about it dumbing down the genre? Halo swung the needle TOWARDS is predecessors on pc where previous console shooters were as far away as possible. Halo:CE was as close to a pc shooter as you can get wilst having fun in a controller.

 

 

Look at quake. Then loo at ce. It's definitely dumbed down.

 

Still an amazing game though and in a lot of ways a better game imo.

Again, i don't dispute that concessions had to be made to bring a shooter to console, but Halo:CE took fewer consessions than its console predecessors. So it doesn't make sense to blame halo for dumbing down the genre. It moved the genre back TOWARDS its roots, falling short simply due to the inferiority of the control method.

 

It should be credited for smartening console shooters, not dumbing down the genre altogether.

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Aren't we talking about Halo:CE though? If it raised the bar, then why are we talking about it dumbing down the genre? Halo swung the needle TOWARDS is predecessors on pc where previous console shooters were as far away as possible. Halo:CE was as close to a pc shooter as you can get wilst having fun in a controller.

It raised the bar from the N64 shooters, but dumbed down the genre in comparison to PC shooters at the time. While Halo did its own thing, it inspired other developers to mimic its mechanics that plague shooters today(regen health, limited weapons, off-hand grenades and melee). I think that's why blame was shifted towards Halo. FPS games in the late 90s didn't remove jumping because Goldeneye was incredibly popular.

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i wouldn't consider CE dumbed down compared to other arena shooters, at least not in terms of flow and that kind of stuff. We have to remember that CE isn't an arena shooter, it takes inspiration from that sub genre but it has too many different key elements that separate it from the arena pack.

 

Going back to the initial argument that halo essentially "sold out" the genre, I think it's ignorant at best. There is no end all be all shooter standard, and halo has plenty of its own elements that make it just as sophisticated of a game.

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It raised the bar from the N64 shooters, but dumbed down the genre in comparison to PC shooters at the time. While Halo did its own thing, it inspired other developers to mimic its mechanics that plague shooters today(regen health, limited weapons, off-hand grenades and melee). I think that's why blame was shifted towards Halo. FPS games in the late 90s didn't remove jumping because Goldeneye was incredibly popular.

Still doesn't make sense, the genre was already "dumbed down" before halo touched it. CE,the game we are talking about, also didn't have health regen. limited weapons, off hand grenades and melee represents a new approach, but not neccisarily a 'dumbing down'.

 

Now if we were arguing that halo2 dumbed down the genre I'd see the argument, because noob friendly mechanics found their way into previously PC centric shooters.

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Still doesn't make sense, the genre was already "dumbed down" before halo touched it. CE,the game we are talking about, also didn't have health regen. limited weapons, off hand grenades and melee represents a new approach, but not neccisarily a 'dumbing down'.

 

Now if we were arguing that halo2 dumbed down the genre I'd see the argument, because noob friendly mechanics found their way into PC centric shooters.

Halo 1 practically had health regen. You'd restore 50% of your health, and would only take semi-permanent damage once you dropped below 50%. There was also 1 flavor of health pack for simplicity's sake, which brought you right back up to full health instead of needing multiple smaller health pickups.

Off-hand grenades and melees were a concession for controllers, but still arguably made the game simpler. You didn't have to risk pulling out your fists or grenade during a firefight, you'd just use them with whatever gun you had out. The weapon limit hindered just how powerful an individual could actually be; a player had to choose what tools they wanted to bring into a fight instead of having everything available to them.

Then you have the slowed move speed, lack of options to actually get fast, and fairly grounded gameplay due to commitment necessary to jump.

 

While you can't fault the original for cheap imitations, Halo did do a lot to make shooters more accessible to console players, and is arguably what brought us to this point. While Halo 1 wasn't a totally braindead game, it was really dumb compared to Quake and Unreal Tournament. And the series only got worse with each subsequent installment. Except Halo 5, I like that game.

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Also, is it just me or is there only ever 9 pages of custom games?

I've seen 16 before.  Halo is just that dead.  They killed it. 

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Halo 1 practically had health regen. You'd restore 50% of your health, and would only take semi-permanent damage once you dropped below 50%. There was also 1 flavor of health pack for simplicity's sake, which brought you right back up to full health instead of needing multiple smaller health pickups.

Off-hand grenades and melees were a concession for controllers, but still arguably made the game simpler. You didn't have to risk pulling out your fists or grenade during a firefight, you'd just use them with whatever gun you had out. The weapon limit hindered just how powerful an individual could actually be; a player had to choose what tools they wanted to bring into a fight instead of having everything available to them.

Then you have the slowed move speed, lack of options to actually get fast, and fairly grounded gameplay due to commitment necessary to jump.

 

While you can't fault the original for cheap imitations, Halo did do a lot to make shooters more accessible to console players, and is arguably what brought us to this point. While Halo 1 wasn't a totally braindead game, it was really dumb compared to Quake and Unreal Tournament. And the series only got worse with each subsequent installment. Except Halo 5, I like that game.

I dont disagree that halo:ce was 'dumbed down' compared to quake... it had to be to work on a controller.

 

I disagree that CE was in anyway responsible for dumbing down FPS, because it was "smarter" than any other console FPS before or after it.

 

So what Halo had a different health, melee,and grenade system compared to other FPS? So what there were fewer weapons? Those things made for DIFFERENT strategic considerations, but not for a dumber game. They took a limitation of controllers (the inability to hotkey) and turned it into a deep meta and a solid gameplay loop.

 

Like i said, if we want to credit a game for ACTUALLY dumbing down the genre, it should be Halo2, which was much more influential in terms of the negative mechanics borrowed by other franchises.

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I can't be the only one triggered that I keep seeing Octagon warm-ups with 16 people, or maps without their proper gametypes being played.

 

Also, is it just me or is there only ever 9 pages of custom games?

No, you're wrong. I have the alternative facts, there are 1 to 1.5 million people playing Halo every day. My alternative facts also show 5,000 pages of custom games at all hours of the day. 

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Guys... I just won a StrongHold game while getting heavily outslayed, i dont undertand life anymore, some guy here told me that SH=Slayer.

 

Even meanbean is better at trolling that you

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Unfortunately I don't ever see clamber going away because 99% of the population don't understand the flaws with it, and even if they did the fact they like it would negate the negatives on gameplay in their mind, however, you can definitely mitigate clamber by removing sprint and making thruster not thrust you as far and as fast as it does in Halo 5. They also need to design the maps better to allow players to make jumps without clamber instead of forcing it upon us, but either way if Halo 6 has sprint I won't be getting it anyway.

Im not trying to be a dick but you think if 99 percent of people dont understand it, maybe you're the one misundertanding it? Agree that maybe you could make the thrust a bit shorter, but I think clamber really adds to halo and would love it in all future halos. People may say "It makes moving around the map easier for noobs" which in reading hundreds of pages on here, is not a popular addition. Many people don't like anything that makes the game easier for the casual, which I somewhat agree with.

 

But in terms of clamber, just because you can clamber onto a ledge, doesn't mean you can compete with better players. I watch streams everyday and cannot fathom what the pros do with auto-stabilize and clamber. They make thrust jumps slides etc that I will try for hours and still not make once. My point is I believe clamber is a great addition because it does make the game more fun for the everyday casual player, but not where it gives you any advantage over higher level players. Something like the snipe having high magnetism is something that would close the gap between an average player and an above average player. 

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Im not trying to be a dick but you think if 99 percent of people dont understand it, maybe you're the one misundertanding it? Agree that maybe you could make the thrust a bit shorter, but I think clamber really adds to halo and would love it in all future halos. People may say "It makes moving around the map easier for noobs" which in reading hundreds of pages on here, is not a popular addition. Many people don't like anything that makes the game easier for the casual, which I somewhat agree with.

 

But in terms of clamber, just because you can clamber onto a ledge, doesn't mean you can compete with better players. I watch streams everyday and cannot fathom what the pros do with auto-stabilize and clamber. They make thrust jumps slides etc that I will try for hours and still not make once. My point is I believe clamber is a great addition because it does make the game more fun for the everyday casual player, but not where it gives you any advantage over higher level players. Something like the snipe having high magnetism is something that would close the gap between an average player and an above average player.

Lol clamber sucks
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Im not trying to be a dick but you think if 99 percent of people dont understand it, maybe you're the one misundertanding it? Agree that maybe you could make the thrust a bit shorter, but I think clamber really adds to halo and would love it in all future halos. People may say "It makes moving around the map easier for noobs" which in reading hundreds of pages on here, is not a popular addition. Many people don't like anything that makes the game easier for the casual, which I somewhat agree with.

 

But in terms of clamber, just because you can clamber onto a ledge, doesn't mean you can compete with better players. I watch streams everyday and cannot fathom what the pros do with auto-stabilize and clamber. They make thrust jumps slides etc that I will try for hours and still not make once. My point is I believe clamber is a great addition because it does make the game more fun for the everyday casual player, but not where it gives you any advantage over higher level players. Something like the snipe having high magnetism is something that would close the gap between an average player and an above average player.

 

@@TBisEATIN

 

You are soooooo wrong

 

I refer you to this amazing post by Goat

 

Ya'll are still missing the point. 

 

Each one of these colored blocks represents 8 feet.

 

Dd9ujeK.png

Both of the large pale blocks are at the same height. If I don't want the player to reach the block on the right by jumping, it has to be 40 feet away from him. (edit: The player could still reach it with Sprint, but pushing it to 50 feet cut off access.)

 

 

hkXGBA3.png

 

This is how far the block has to be in Halo 5 to cut off access to that platform. 120 feet, which is THREE FUCKING TIMES AS FAR AWAY. When people say you can fly across the map in Halo 5, it's not an exaggeration. That's 112 feet between the blocks. 

 

Oh, and your pistol's red reticle aim assist stops after about here by the way. 

 

GQMVN0u.png

 

 

So that's distance. Let's look at height. The block on the bottom right is 8 feet tall and 32 feet away from the Spartan. He can't jump up to it. 

 

dmAg1z6.png

 

This is how high the block has to be to prevent him from getting up there in Halo 5. I'll give you one guess how much taller it is than him. 

 

482Rwk1.png

 

If i want that area to be in red reticle range, but off limits to the player, it has to be at least 56 feet away and at least 24 feet high.

 

qV5WNl2.png

 

What's the moral of the story here? 

 

In previous Halo games, there was a good mix of vertical and shallow maps, and big maps and small maps. In Halo 5, you don't have a fucking choice, because otherwise players can pretty much go wherever they want. 

 

Oh, and this would be non existent without Clamber in the game. You can still fly across the fucking map with Sprint Thrust Slide Stabalize and Ground Pound, but at least you wont be able to clamber up anything. 

 

edit: I'm eliminating variables like slopes, cover, long ranged weapons and vehicles for obvious reasons, but I suppose I should acknowledge the loopholes for argument's sake. Yes, you can put railings or bevels on the platforms or you can shrink the left block so the player cannot get a sprinting start. But both of those are forced on the designer.

 

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Im not trying to be a dick but you think if 99 percent of people dont understand it, maybe you're the one misundertanding it? Agree that maybe you could make the thrust a bit shorter, but I think clamber really adds to halo and would love it in all future halos. People may say "It makes moving around the map easier for noobs" which in reading hundreds of pages on here, is not a popular addition. Many people don't like anything that makes the game easier for the casual, which I somewhat agree with.

 

But in terms of clamber, just because you can clamber onto a ledge, doesn't mean you can compete with better players. I watch streams everyday and cannot fathom what the pros do with auto-stabilize and clamber. They make thrust jumps slides etc that I will try for hours and still not make once. My point is I believe clamber is a great addition because it does make the game more fun for the everyday casual player, but not where it gives you any advantage over higher level players. Something like the snipe having high magnetism is something that would close the gap between an average player and an above average player. 

 

Midship wasn't upscaled because staff captains couldn't compete with generals. 

 

It was upscaled because of Sprint, Thrust and Clamber. 

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This implementation of clamber blows. It COULD be implemented better (and i wouldnt complain if they did it right) But it would be much easier from a design/balance/testing standpoint to just take out of future releases.

 

Allowing people to clamber above their heads in addition thrust-jump-stabilize-crouch combos forced maps to be way stretched... and brought too many button presses that added complexity to the controls, but really added no depth to the gameplay.

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