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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I guarantee you the reason Control in Destiny was made a 3 Plot Slayer Hybrid in the first place was because Bungie realised what 3 Plots was actually about spawn trapping and killing, and they also understand seeing your individual kills increase the score is more gratifying and rewards both indivual skill AND team work.

Yep I agree.

 

Despite the overall game's flaws, the zone-influenced score settings make Control a much more fun gametype than Zone Control or Clash.

 

I would argue that the similarities between 3-plot and TDM modes are what makes the 3-plot modes so popular in various games.

 

You don't have to play too different from TDM, but you also don't have to worry as much about being good at killing, which is a good thing for the masses.

 

Also another thing to note for those that don't play Destiny, Control is 6v6... I can see how 4v4 might not be the most ideal for 3-plot modes.

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Strongholds are spread out to encompass the entire map on every map except Empire. If you stand on each stronghold on The Rig and have a 4th stand on catwalks, where does the other team spawn?

 

Do you know? Because the game is going to freak out and give really odd spawns at that point. That's unpredictable.

 

 

If you move the 4th player off the catwalk they'll spawn on carbine and the best move at that point would be to KEEP them spawning in carbine, wouldn't you agree? That's a spawn trap. Explain bow that differs from slayer.

 

No matter where you move your players the strategy is going to play out exactly the same it would in a slayer match. So why are we even playing strongholds.

Why do you keep bring up this extremely specific and unrealistic scenario to prove your point? Games dont play out this way.

 

Yes you can influence spawns in SH. Its a part of any gametype.

 

But the spawns arent random ever. They are ALWAYS based on positioning (not strongholds held). This is true during 2 caps and 3 caps.

 

If you are baby sitting a 2 cap, you are forcing spawns away from your zones, but you aren't TRAPPING the enemy at their spawn. Its not a spawn trap.

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Why do you keep bring up this extremely specific and unrealistic scenario to prove your point? Games dont play out this way.

 

Yes you can influence spawns in SH. Its a part of any gametype.

 

But the spawns arent random ever. They are ALWAYS based on positioning (not strongholds held). This is true during 2 caps and 3 caps.

 

If you are baby sitting a 2 cap, you are forcing spawns away from your zones, but you aren't TRAPPING the enemy at their spawn. Its not a spawn trap.

That situation I described isn't uncommon at all, if you can't answer it it's because you don't know where the spawn system will place someone in that scenario. And you shouldn't, because there's nowhere else for players to spawn. If someone moved to create a spawn alcove then it's in your best interest to trap them where they are. I can't possibly imagine what's do difficult to understand about this. Stronghold is the only objective gametype that DOESN'T focus the objective to a single point (or 2) and this is the consequence of that. It plays like slayer which also encompasses the entire map holistically.

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Strongholds is a fun gametype, but it does have a very set playstyle on the maps played competitively. When have you seen a team lock down bottom mid and yard on Plaza and not go to nest and let the other team take yard?

 

You do essentially leave the other team the 1/3 of the map that is considered the weaker/worse section. That's slayer-esque

 

This reminded me of another thing, I think that the majority of Strongholds maps played competitively are BAD for the gametype.

 

In Rig and Plaza the setup is very clear and the last undesirable Hill is always stuck in a corner.

 

Empire has the 2 base Hills that are always free caps but then the rest of the match is a clusterfuck bottom mid that isn't very decisive.

 

Those 3 maps should have been scrapped in favor of more maps like Eden, where there may still be an ideal setup(Catwalk and Red Nest), but the less desirable Hill (Blue Outside), is still a plenty viable Hill to hold in combination with either Catwalk or Red Nest when working to flip the the advantage in your favor.

 

IMO, Strongholds maps should try to enforce some kind of Setup Rotation movement to offset the requirement to setup with 2 to score. Where teams are exchanging Hills more often. It doesn't have to be all the time, but at least allow much more room for it, like Eden.

 

Unfortunately this means that we can't really use many Default H5 Dev maps.

 

 

Also a small improvement that should be made to the Strongholds scoring system, is that if a team has 2 plots and the other team has only 1, when the losing team is contesting 1 of the winning team's 2 plots it should STOP the winning team from earning points, to help enable last second comebacks.

 

I enjoy the gametype, but I hate how the last like 5-10 points in the match you already give up and are like 'yep they won its over' because they will get the last few winning points before you can finish capping a Hill. Contesting should stop that.

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you  

are

forcing

spawns

away

from

your

zones,

 

but you aren't TRAPPING the enemy at their spawn. Its not a spawn trap.

 

tumblr_inline_obo6svRsgq1unmfg0_400.jpg

Can you give me your websters' definition of a spawn trap?  Because the first part of your statement would be how I'd expect it to read. 

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Can you give me your websters' definition of a spawn trap?  Because the first part of your statement would be how I'd expect it to read. 

 

Spawn trap implies you are preventing them from leaving their spawn (Hence the "trap" part

). Forcing spawns away from the objectives you are controlling is just fundamental map control.

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Spawn trap implies you are preventing them from leaving their spawn (Hence the "trap" part

). Forcing spawns away from the objectives you are controlling is just fundamental map control.

Okay man lmao now you're REALLY reaching.

 

So you're not spawn trapping you're just making them spawn somewhere else. What's the next best move? Is it not to collapse around their spawn and control them? Of course it is.

 

Or do you just let them spawn wherever and wait for them to challenge the stronghold to combat them. Yeah no of course not.

 

There's no way you can deny this outside of complete stubbornness.

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This is one of the best, and most level headed posts regarding the subject.

 

I was thinking of the Destiny comparison myself. Its a good example.

And it is utterly amazing how people arguing against Multi and I have chosen to ignore it.

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Spawn trap implies you are preventing them from leaving their spawn (Hence the "trap" part

). Forcing spawns away from the objectives you are controlling is just fundamental map control.

I'd argue that, for a majority of stronghold matches, one leads to the other. 

 

I don't know how many times I've seen it happen on plaza.  First initial fight for the bottom and sniper zones, whoever wins it pulls away into the lead as they force spawns in garden over and over and "prevent the losing team from leaving their spawn" so that they can't make a comeback by grabbing bottom or sniper zones.  Just because they're not being killed literally right on spawn  or stuck to a single small room doesn't mean they are not being spawn trapped.  

 

Spawning in the the same general area of a map the whole match and trying to break out to get another zone captured is a good example of being spawn trapped in my book.

 

Are you going to sit here and tell me that if you spawn somewhere in the general vicinity of garden 5-6 times in a row, you have not been spawn trapped?  

 

OOOOHHHHHH, maybe your reply is that you have just been map controlled....

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Little thought experiment.

 

I'm playing a match of Halo and we control a good majority of the map and are forcing the team into the same corner and killing them repeatedly.

 

 

What gametype am I playing, Slayer or Strongholds.

 

 

 

No but it's cool let's have more redundant gametypes. I was thinking one where you have to get 2 kills and your team is rewarded with 1 point. 1st team to 25 wins.

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That situation I described isn't uncommon at all, if you can't answer it it's because you don't know where the spawn system will place someone in that scenario. And you shouldn't, because there's nowhere else for players to spawn. If someone moved to create a spawn alcove then it's in your best interest to trap them where they are. I can't possibly imagine what's do difficult to understand about this. Stronghold is the only objective gametype that DOESN'T focus the objective to a single point (or 2) and this is the consequence of that. It plays like slayer which also encompasses the entire map holistically.

You aren't differentiating from trapping a team at spawn, and forcing them to spawn away from your stronghold. And is the flaw in the entirety of your argument. Those two concepts are not synonymous.

 

If that particular scenario isn't uncommon, then doesn't that fly in the face of your argument that teams don't push trip caps?

 

Why else would a team have a player IN every stronghold unless the JUST capped them all simultaneously with 4 dead.

 

Your argument that getting a two cap automatically forces the entire opposing team into a single corner of the map can be disproven within the first 30 seconds of SH map.

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I think everyone is over looking the real issue here. 

 

You can literally trap the enemy team in the respawn screen on husky raid.

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I think everyone is over looking the real issue here. 

 

You can literally trap the enemy team in the respawn screen on husky raid.

Yea, that is no longer a simple spawn trap. That is a software fault. 

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I'd argue that, for a majority of stronghold matches, one leads to the other.

 

I don't know how many times I've seen it happen on plaza. First initial fight for the bottom and sniper zones, whoever wins it pulls away into the lead as they force spawns in garden over and over and "prevent the losing team from leaving their spawn" so that they can't make a comeback by grabbing bottom or sniper zones. Just because they're not being killed literally right on spawn or stuck to a single small room doesn't mean they are not being spawn trapped.

 

Spawning in the the same general area of a map the whole match and trying to break out to get another zone captured is a good example of being spawn trapped in my book.

 

Are you going to sit here and tell me that if you spawn somewhere in the general vicinity of garden 5-6 times in a row, you have not been spawn trapped?

 

OOOOHHHHHH, maybe your reply is that you have just been map controlled....

What do you mean by general vicinity. The opposing team could spawn hotel, garden, yard, or tram. That's hardly being trapped on spawn. There are like 8 ways out.

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You aren't differentiating from trapping a team at spawn, and forcing them to spawn away from your stronghold. And is the flaw in the entirety of your argument. Those two concepts are not synonymous.

 

If that particular scenario isn't uncommon, then doesn't that fly in the face of your argument that teams don't push trip caps?

 

Why else would a team have a player IN every stronghold unless the JUST capped them all simultaneously with 4 dead.

 

Your argument that getting a two cap automatically forces the entire opposing team into a single corner of the map can be disproven within the first 30 seconds of SH map.

Okay so it's not a spawn trap. You're just forcing the other team to spawn somewhere else.

 

 

Okay man.

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What do you mean by general vicinity. The opposing team could spawn hotel, garden, yard, or tram. That's hardly being trapped on spawn. There are like 8 ways out.

8 ways out to a likely death caused by an overpowered setup encouraged by the gametype to be repeated over and over like groundhogs day. 

 

By general vicinity, I mean you are stuck to spawning in the 1/3 of the map that is hardest to hold.  Spawning there over an over unless you team somehow breaks the oposing setup.  You are being really hard headed with the concept of spawn trapping, or map controlling, or what ever you want to call it.

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So is ANYONE on the opposing side of the discussion going to acknowledge my Destiny example? Because seriously, it literally proves the entire point.

No dude why are you comparing Halo to Destiny, you can't even jump and shoot in that game so example is completely irrelevant.

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Okay so it's not a spawn trap. You're just forcing the other team to spawn somewhere else.

 

 

Okay man.

Thats just manipulating spawns. A part of every gametype. Spawn trapping means they are actually trapped...ei they can't get out

 

When you block bubble spawns in truth ctf, you aren't trapping the team, you are just positioning yourself so that their spawns help you achieve the objective.

 

A spawn trap is when you confine the entire enemy team into a single area of the map , that they cannot get out of without extreme difficulty.

 

I posted a link to a video of an actual spawn trap on Plaza SH, and it wasn't achieved by simply capping two zones. It meant blocking all spawns EXCEPT for cafe, and it happened DURING a 3 cap (which you claim is impossible)

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You are all arguing using two separate scenarios, that isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

In a vacuum, with perfect execution, perfect positioning, and weapon advantage, yeah... Strongholds provides a linear spawn trap. But that rarely happens, even at the highest level of play. Maybe if you are cycling enemy spawns 2 at a time, but then that also brings in other problem variables for discussion such as TTK and respawn timers.

 

In this perfect situational scenario that everyone is citing, if the Posters player slips ever so slightly, or the Hotel blocker gets 5'd, the entire scenario caves in upon itself. An enemy can spawn at Lift or Hotel and break the "easy" 2-cap setup or provide an enormous amount of other opportunities

 

I won't deny that Strongholds does share certain intrinsic properties with Slayer, but it introduces new variables such as its scoring system, Stronghold capture system (capping, contesting, resetting), the option to shift gameplay rhythm via a 3-cap, and more.

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You are all arguing using two separate scenarios, that isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

In a vacuum, with perfect execution, perfect positioning, and weapon advantage, yeah... Strongholds provides a linear spawn trap. But that rarely happens, even at the highest level of play. Maybe if you are cycling enemy spawns 2 at a time, but then that also brings in other problem variables for discussion such as TTK and respawn timers.

 

In this perfect situational scenario that everyone is citing, if the Posters player slips ever so slightly, or the Hotel blocker gets 5'd, the entire scenario caves in upon itself. An enemy can spawn at Lift or Hotel and break the "easy" 2-cap setup or provide an enormous amount of other opportunities

 

I won't deny that Strongholds does share certain intrinsic properties with Slayer, but it introduces new variables such as its scoring system, Stronghold capture system (capping, contesting, resetting), the option to shift gameplay rhythm via a 3-cap, and more.

 

Little thought experiment.

 

I'm playing a match of Halo and we control a good majority of the map and are forcing the team into the same corner and killing them repeatedly.

 

 

What gametype am I playing, Slayer or Strongholds.

 

 

 

No but it's cool let's have more redundant gametypes. I was thinking one where you have to get 2 kills and your team is rewarded with 1 point. 1st team to 25 wins.

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Thats just manipulating spawns. Spawn trapping means they are trapped...ei they can't get out

Thats just manipulating words.  Word trapping means they are trapped.... i.e. can't make it out.  (it being what the hell you are saying

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So is ANYONE on the opposing side of the discussion going to acknowledge my Destiny example? Because seriously, it literally proves the entire point.

 

Considering Destiny isn't designed around being a competitive game, I'd say Bungie took that approach to create a Deathmatch-Objective hybrid for player satisfaction and individualism rather than a competitively oriented balance decision.

 

The whole Halo 4 approach where "you are always contributing no matter what you do!"

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Considering Destiny isn't designed around being a competitive game, I'd say Bungie took that approach to create a Deathmatch-Objective hybrid for player satisfaction and individualism rather than a competitively oriented balance decision.

 

The whole Halo 4 approach where "you are always contributing no matter what you do!"

Not that

 

This

 

Enjoying how it plays is ultimately subjective, but Multi said specifically that it was okay at best, not straight up bad. Every reply you give is either 1 or 2 sentences of one liner attempts that deflect any points he makes. Congrats, you avoid any form of actual discussion.

 

Furthermore, he said that it was balanced, functional and fair, he did not say it theoretically does not work, only that is is not optimised well for 4v4 player count in comparison to over game modes. He also said that the game mode is essentially dumbed down slayer.

 

Bringing back my comaprison of Team Deathmatch, Control and Zone Control from Destiny, TDM being TDM, Control being 3 plot where kills earm score while holding objectives to influence spawning, zone control beng a traditional 3 plot mode, like strongholds.

 

These 3 modes are the common modes for Iron Banner in Destiny, Iron Banner being one of the destiny equivalents of "competitive" modes

 

Control and Zone Control have literally the EXACT same strategies and gameplay. The zones are in the same place, the spawns are influenced the same way. The only difference is scoring based on kills vs time holding objectives. Gameplay wise, a match of Control and Zone Control play EXACTLY the same. In both gamemodes the team that wins is the one who locks the opposing team in one area of the map and prevents them pushing out to other objectives.

 

Why is this relevant? Because it proves Multi's point. 3 Plot Gamemodes are about spawn trapping, the objectives exist ONLY to be captured to influence where you and your opponents spawn. When a 3 plot mode is uses scoring based on Kills, like Control in Destiny, it does not play any differently from one that scores based on holding the objectives, like Zone Control in Destiny. This proves his inital statement: 3 plots is about spawn trapping. To refute this further is to deny facts.

 

Why is the compariaon to TDM relevant? Because to win TDM, you want to hold your opponents in a spawn trap as often as possible. JUST LIKE 3 PLOTS. The only difference, as Multi also already pointed out, is that in Slayer/TDM, you get more choice over where you spawn trap your enemy. When you play Rusted Lands in Destiny, you attempt to force your enemies onto the Beach spawn at Bravo, in TDM, Control AND Zone Control, but in TDM because you have more control over spawning, with no objectives to influence them on your behalf, it is in the hands of player to devise how, where and when to spawn trap the opponents, it is not pre determined by 3 objctives, in this vein, it is much more dynamic. The flip side is that 3 plot is arguably more predictable because you can cap the objective and worry less about your individual positioning influencing it.

 

The reason you want to push an objective in 3 Plot is to break the spawn trap. But in slayer, you would want to break out the spawn trap, objective or no objective.

 

Destiny has all the relevent game modes in a real world example to prove the whole of the statement Multi made. 3 Plot Modes are won using fundamentally the EXACT same strategies as slayer, using objectives, as opposed to a each individual team members positoning, to influence spawning to spawn trap the opposing team for as long as possible. The major difference, is that Slayer has teams devise their own set ups, due to no capture and leave objectives existing, as a result it is potentially more dynamic, while 3 Plot modes have pre determined ones, and this is arguably dumbed down, or arguably more predictable outside of a triple cap causing the opposing team to spawn randomly.

 

Now, what I will add, is that 3 Plot modes, on the right map, can add an incentive to move in a way slayer doesn't. If the Hills are placed in areas with little power, as they should be, you can force movement to areas of the map a slayer game just simply would not acheive.

 

However, as Multi also points out, KOTH and Oddball acheive the similar effect, but allowing for more player control and creativity in how to do so, and are game modes that do not share such a fundamentally similar playstyle to Slayer.

 

His point, is not that a 3 Plot modes is bad, broken or even unsuitable for 4v4 Halo, merely that it is an inferior choice for 4v4 Halo due to how similar it is to Slayer, and how little creativity it allows for in comparison to modes like KOTH or Oddball.

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Thats just manipulating words. Word trapping means they are trapped.... i.e. can't make it out. (it being what the hell you are saying)

Its not manipulating words. He's calling a situation where people aren't TRAPPED a spawn trap. It's objectively wrong.

 

You dont see the issue with calling something a spawn trap when there are multiple spawn locations available each with multiple ways out? Ok. But you're wrong.

 

There's proper use of terminology. And then there is being wrong. Simply , Having bottom mid and nest zones on plaza is not a spawn trap... roughly half of the map is still open for spawns. So calling it a trap is wrong.

 

Simply having basement and nest on Rig is not a spawn trap, for the same reason.

 

The trap is set by positioning, not by which Strongholds you have.

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