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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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What's your opinion on having every forge map inclusion into regular MM be preceded by a month long test playlist, followed by a Waypoint poll from which one or two are deemed worthy of inclusion into the core playlists?  That would ease the familiarity issue while making the community feel invested in the MM experience.

 

Also, I'm craving some BTB and if anyone reading this would like to join me right meow, I'd love to get a TB lobby going.

 

 

I think there are a bunch of options to promote community content. Here's a random idea that I'll throw out just for discussions sake.

 

Once a month, there is an 'Community Arena' playlist that features 5+ community maps on the usual Slayer, CTF, Strongholds, etc. At the end of the week/weekend, fans vote their favorite map(s), and that map(s) is added to all of the Social playlists for the next month.

 

Each month there are 1-2 maps that are voted in and featured in matchmaking and they cycle in and out to retain familiarity in the playlists and keep Social content fresh.

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Remember when they unranked Breakout and then added a Shotgun starting weapon and made it ranked again?

oh god please, I just got over a headache. I don't need another.

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But Halo 3 had none of those things at launch?  :thinking: In fact, Grifball and the other niche modes were brought in as rotational experiences as to not upset the balance of standard matchmaking. Additionally, they were Double XP weekends which provided a fun and rewarding incentive to hop into the experience, even if it wasn't your cup of tea.

 

I should really be directing my hate more towards Halo: Reach, because Halo 3 did a decent job at maintaining the core image of the game, but still had a slew of contrasting experiences (SWAT/Snipers/Arena/BTB)

You know my feelings on this but why the hell not have some fun discussion.

 

I would say that your first sentence actually hurts your argument. Some of those things either weren't there at launch(Grifball, Rocket Race) to begin with or brand new and probably waited on how the community felt(Infection). Once they got put into the wild more and more people associated those modes with Halo and once they weren't there anymore in any official or community made way it was a turn off to them. Those modes became a core Halo experience just like Warzone is becoming, as you came it is.

 

At least with some of the modes like Grifball and Infection there were still a variety of was to play the game, especially in Reach. Grifball had Vanilla, Evolved, Blargball, Jetpacks only, etc). Initial variety at the start would help the playlists and potentially reduce the constant refresh comments, but you're never going to satisfy 100% of the crowd. 

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I do agree with Infinity a fair bit on this. Universal can only ever be a good thing, because a games identity being unified and consistent to a direction is what brings communities together and aids the accessibility to new players.

 

The thing is, it's not that black and white. Core settings should be distinct but not at the expense of extremely popular spin offs. Halo was originally known best for it's 4v4 slayer, yet every gametype and playlist that differed from it until the end of Halo 3 got great receptions to the point where they existed in the next games.

 

Here's my idea Halo playlist screen.

 

- Ranked Team Arena

- Social 4v4 Slayer

- Ranked Team Doubles

- Social BTB

- Ranked FFA

- Ranked SWAT (Or social depending on how competitive it is)

- Social Infection

- Ranked Snipers (Not in h5, but in every other Halo)

- Social Multiteam

- Ranked Breakout (Only in h5)

- Action Sack (4 day on rotation, like Tavern Brawl)

 

gg EZ

 

It's tight, it's efficient, but most importantly pre-existing communities have spots to flourish. Every playlist provides something major that the other ones don't. I personally have never liked the idea of ranked Slayer, it was always just MLG/Team Arena with significantly less variety. There's also a debate as to whether you'd have a grifball playlist, or squeeze it into action sack occasionally. it all depends on if that community still exists, because to my knowledge 343 single-handedly killed it.

 

Also in the case of Warzone, assuming it's going to only be a h5 thing likely, there's no need to put it anywhere. As i said before it's essentially a worse BTB.

 

Now on the topic of forge maps, in >current year there is ZERO reason to not include them in any and all playlists. Properly screened and optimized forge maps are essentially no different from dev maps. The problem we have at the moment is our devs don't know what good maps are, so in the meantime it's a bummer. The whole map situation is. But Infinity couldn't say a single neg thing about forge maps that I wouldn't refute.

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Not sure why we can't have a server browser and matchmaking at the same time. 

 

This would completely fix every issue with playlists. 

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Not sure why we can't have a server browser and matchmaking at the same time. 

 

This would completely fix every issue with playlists. 

They're sticking to their roots. Halo is the game that killed server browsers.

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They're sticking to their roots. Halo is the game that killed server browsers.

 

So you're telling me that an opportunity to develop the franchise in a POSITIVE direction is one that they will never take? 

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So you're telling me that an opportunity to develop the franchise in a POSITIVE direction is one that they will never take?

Color me fucking shocked
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Not sure why we can't have a server browser and matchmaking at the same time.

 

This would completely fix every issue with playlists.

Ya know it really pisses me off when you come in here thinkin you can be all reasoned and logical and shit.

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So you're telling me that an opportunity to develop the franchise in a POSITIVE direction is one that they will never take? 

If you want to change what Halo is at its core, then sure.

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Server browser was technically the first kind of online multiplayer Halo ever had just throwing that out there

Are you going to make any more Halo videos? I really enjoyed your other ones.

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Are you going to make any more Halo videos? I really enjoyed your other ones.

 

There just isn't anything left to talk about, really. And certainly nothing that wouldn't come off completely as being sour grapes. 

 

There are no "current" objections to what Halo exists as right now. It's all been beaten to death. 

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There just isn't anything left to talk about, really. And certainly nothing that wouldn't come off completely as being sour grapes.

 

There are no "current" objections to what Halo exists as right now. It's all been beaten to death.

besides there's a lot of other things to bitch about.

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It's worth noting that Quinn has been posting in the Arena Settings thread the last few days and has been actively responding to feedback. Too little too late? Maybe. But it's nothing but positive and I'm glad to see it.

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There is no actual evidence to prove this though. Halo was the top dog and had those things, Halo wasn't the top dog because it had those options.

 

 

You've already said the biggest problem I have with your argument. "There is no actual evidence to prove this though." You try to point at Halo having a multitude of experiences being the reason for its decline, but there's no evidence to support this at all. It's a correlation, sure, but I see no reason why it would be the cause of Halo's decline. By your own admission, there's no other games really doing this kind of thing, so how can we know for sure that it's a failing formula in gaming? There are a million other things that you could speculate as being the cause of Halo's decline, and each are just as likely (or moreso) than this idea you've conjured up.

 

You've also tried to make the argument that CoD is going down Halo's path because of its variety of experiences, but that seems to be a very silly argument to make. Much like Halo, many of CoD's fans have asked for one thing and been consistently denied on it, leading to frustration and hilarious Youtube trailer downvotes. Why can't that be the reason for its decline? Doesn't that seem to be the Occam's Razor here? Why are you jumping to this multitude of niche experiences thing? You seem to have made up your mind and then gone looking for evidence to support that conclusion, rather than letting the evidence support the conclusion naturally.

 

I just don't think you're establishing this link between multiple experiences and declining playerbase as well as you think you are. There's no doubt that it's a tough job for 343 to satisfy multiple different communities. I don't think anyone would ever dispute that. But I think the reason for their failure on this front is because they've taken on the job themselves. They handle every aspect of every community on their own front. It was 343 who decided what H5's competitive settings should be, not the community's. It was 343 who decided that rounds should be removed from H5 Grifball, not the community. It was 343 who decided what the Infection settings should be, not the community. It was 343 who decided that BTB should have BR starts, not the community. Even when this is successful (I've never seen anyone complain about H5 Infection), it's still them telling us how the game should be. *That's* the risky element of this design. From my perspective, it's a very different method than what Bungie did, which seemed to be give the community the tools, let us play with them, and then throw the niche toys into matchmaking for a wider audience. The tools for Infection should have been given to us, the custom community should have decided what worked, and then 343 should have taken those settings and put them into matchmaking. If these are all niche experiences, then let the niche crowd decide what's best for them, instead of trying to dictate it to them.

 

To me, it seems like a very bad idea to throw one of Halo's defining elements into the dumpster in an attempt to copy what other games are doing. Isn't that what we've been trying and failing to do since 2010? Making a good Halo game is hard, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to stop trying to accomplish it.

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You try to point at Halo having a multitude of experiences being the reason for its decline

 

 

I'm heading to bed so I can't write up a big response, but I think you misread what I was saying. I think niche audiences is a huge problem Halo has, but I was never claiming it was the sole reason for Halo's decline, nor Call of Duty's.

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I'm heading to bed so I can't write up a big response, but I think you misread what I was saying. I think niche audiences is a huge problem Halo has, but I was never claiming it was the sole reason for Halo's decline, nor Call of Duty's.

 

It certainly seems to be a major reason for both franchises' decline in your view:

 

 

That's the problem though, that format of supporting a bunch of niche groups cannot be sustained anymore. No other game does it, except Call of Duty, and their population is dwindling just as ours did and they are suffering because of it. Halo had so much flexibility and liberty to do as it pleased during the H2/H3 era, but now the gaming market is so saturated, none of those experiences on their own is good enough to warrant coexistence...

 

But with Halo not being a top dog in any regards (sales, population, esports), we don't have the wiggle room that we used to in trying to promote that format. I'm the biggest fan of BTB, Infection, etc, but none of them on their own are conducive for growing Halo's image as a whole. The numbers for Grifball, Infection, and more may be positive, but is that even relevant when there is no carryover or synonymy between those audiences? Isolated Infection players certainly aren't buying REQ packs.

 

My (end goal) vision for Halo seems so bombastic and improbable because it contradicts everything our developers have done in the past, but my belief is that they were really digging a deeper hole that Halo is struggling to get out of in the present. There never has really been a "core" of Halo, it's always been some anthological collection of completely unrelatable experiences, and if developers attempt to maintain that I just see them spreading themselves too thin.

 

You say the franchises can't support it anymore, that CoD's population is suffering because it, and your dream vision of Halo doesn't have it. What other conclusion can I draw from your argument? I didn't misread anything. This is the argument you put forth.

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It certainly seems to be a major reason for both franchises' decline in your view:

 

 

 

You say the franchises can't support it anymore, that CoD's population is suffering because it, and your dream vision of Halo doesn't have it. What other conclusion can I draw from your argument? I didn't misread anything. This is the argument you put forth.

 

 

Nope, read one more time :)

 

I said CoD's population is dwindling, and now they are suffering because they don't have the population to sustain all their experiences, not that the experiences were the cause of the decline.

 

I just was arguing that keeping a game more unfiorm is more optimal for growth than niche experiences are.

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Nope, read one more time :)

 

I said CoD's population is dwindling, and now they are suffering because they don't have the population to sustain all their experiences, not that the experiences were the cause of the decline.

 

I just was arguing that keeping a game more unfiorm is more optimal for growth than niche experiences are.

 

Fair enough, but I hope you understand why I read it the way I did.

 

I still believe my post is relevant though, and I don't think you've nearly gone to the proper lengths to prove or even validate your thought process. It's a lot of guesswork, and it may even be accurate, but I don't think it's nearly enough to warrant dramatically changing Halo's formula. Especially when nearly the entire population is opposed to it.

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I think Infinity is on to something.

 

Let's say for Halo 6, we only have Team Arena, Social Slayer, BTB, Social Objective, SWAT, an Team Snipers.

 

If the game launches with a server browser, AND a tutorial at the start of when you play the game explaining how it works for console players, we can push niche players into an even more enjoyable experience, as THEY choose the game types and maps. I'm the process, it creates even more variety for players, and creates even less work for 343i, besides creating the browser, which is probably already finished for H5.

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This vid got me to unsub the Halo Youtube, sad day. Just like the livestreams, I just wish it wasn't such blatant advertising in your face.

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