Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

[SweetNSavery]

Nice fallacy.

 

1: Popular consensus, especially within the Halo community, means jack shit to me. In fact if something is popular in Halo nowadays I'm gonna assume it's fucking ********.

 

2: That ISN'T the general consensus. R/halo and waypoint are still not even cohesive on their opinions on 4's story, and that's considering 99% of long time fans have already left.

 

3: 4's story wasn't even well accepted until 5 came out, and people like it in retrospect. People shit on 4 all throughout it's lifespan.

 

 

4: We both know this forum knows better.

 

5: My own basic understanding and common sense of story writing is the reason I don't like the story. Generic sci fi bullshit, generic antagonist with no background, pretty much no character cast except Lasky chief and cortana, and Lasky was only developed off screen prior on Forward Unto Dawn. Palmer and the captain both negate any good development that happened there. Not to mention the stupid ending with cortana duplicating on the light bridge and didact dying to a single grenade.The whole "chief is the chosen one! " stupidity, etc. It was just a brainless story all around.

Technically Chief is not the chosen one. The Forerunner (namely the Librarian) induced humanity with a Geas, making their evolution slightly faster, the Spartan 2s could be the culmination of that Geas, with Halsey at the helm. The Librarian doesn't really need Chief, any Spartan would have worked, (I don't take stock in Chief being a Didact). Also if you payed attention to the books and terminals the Didact is really fleshed out. He saw his countless Children die by humanity, and when the Gravemind drive him crazy, his disdain for humanity only grew more pronounced. And then he got locked in a cage by his former lover (who by the way helped create a new Didact and took the old Didacts place). All of that would drive any normal person insane.

[Cooper]

Annmnddd...that's where it all went to shit.

[BigShow36]

I thought 4's story was almost as bad as 5's honestly.

 

I thought Halo 4's story was about a robot who had to escape his transforming robot captors by pressing a series of buttons. Did I miss something?

[Omn1science]

If you have to read outside material to make sense of a story it's poorly written.

 

I still have no clue what happened in H4.

[arglactable]

Annmnddd...that's where it all went to shit.

 

Really? Because that's basically true of every decent character ever featured in Halo. The in-game characterization has always been minimal. And in the case of the Didact, Bungie was putting all of his story in terminals well before 343 did it. In Halo 3. I'm not sure I get this post-343 aversion to fleshing things out in the expanded fiction. I really think that if 343 hadn't completely abandoned the arc from 4, the Didact could have become a very memorable villain, and they could have had plenty of time to explain him in the subsequent games. Instead, of course, anything even remotely decent that was done in H4's story was thrown straight in the garbage.

[siddysid]

Technically Chief is not the chosen one. The Forerunner (namely the Librarian) induced humanity with a Geas, making their evolution slightly faster, the Spartan 2s could be the culmination of that Geas, with Halsey at the helm. The Librarian doesn't really need Chief, any Spartan would have worked, (I don't take stock in Chief being a Didact). Also if you payed attention to the books and terminals the Didact is really fleshed out. He saw his countless Children die by humanity, and when the Gravemind drive him crazy, his disdain for humanity only grew more pronounced. And then he got locked in a cage by his former lover (who by the way helped create a new Didact and took the old Didacts place). All of that would drive any normal person insane.

 

I thought it was specifically chief, which is why he ended up having so much 'luck' or whatever

[Cooper]

Really? Because that's basically true of every decent character ever featured in Halo. The in-game characterization has always been minimal. And in the case of the Didact, Bungie was putting all of his story in terminals well before 343 did it. In Halo 3. I'm not sure I get this post-343 aversion to fleshing things out in the expanded fiction. I really think that if 343 hadn't completely abandoned the arc from 4, the Didact could have become a very memorable villain, and they could have had plenty of time to explain him in the subsequent games. Instead, of course, anything even remotely decent that was done in H4's story was thrown straight in the garbage.

I never had an issue of understanding what was going on in a bungie halo game. While none of the characters were very fleshed out it was ok, because the roles they occupied never called for it.

 

Arbiter lead forces in hce. He lost. He was shamed and publicly cast down. He becomes the arbiter (a role they adequately explain). He is sent after "heretics" but is swayed and switches sides and helps the humans against the prophets.

 

It's a simple character arc but it's all there. It all makes sense. It's all in game.

 

Didact

 

Comes out of ball. Has jedi powers that could easily kill MC, but he just doesn't(and how does he have that power) Then he Flys around trying to kill everyone...why? Controls robots? Why?

[Apoll0]

Really? Because that's basically true of every decent character ever featured in Halo. The in-game characterization has always been minimal. And in the case of the Didact, Bungie was putting all of his story in terminals well before 343 did it. In Halo 3. I'm not sure I get this post-343 aversion to fleshing things out in the expanded fiction. I really think that if 343 hadn't completely abandoned the arc from 4, the Didact could have become a very memorable villain, and they could have had plenty of time to explain him in the subsequent games. Instead, of course, anything even remotely decent that was done in H4's story was thrown straight in the garbage.

 

bungie did that When none of it mattered to the core story of the games, and it was all background easter-eggy stuff for lore fans.  That is totally fine.  

When something is significant to the story, you need to present it to the viewer, not make them search for it.  I liked halo 4s story for the most part, but 343 definitely laid a turd when it came to explaining the Librarian, Didact and their relationship to each other.

 

As an aside, is anybody else really bothered by the fact that chief survived the nuclear explosion at the end of the game? I mean, i don't have a problem with him surviving because he was encased in hardlight.  that's fine.  I have a problem with the fact that he HELD ONTO THE NUKE INSTEAD OF JUST THROWING THE DAMN THING!

[arglactable]

I never had an issue of understanding what was going on in a bungie halo game. While none of the characters were very fleshed out it was ok, because the roles they occupied never called for it.

 

Arbiter lead forces in hce. He lost. He was shamed and publicly cast down. He becomes the arbiter (a role they adequately explain). He is sent after "heretics" but is swayed and switches sides and helps the humans against the prophets.

 

It's a simple character arc but it's all there. It all makes sense. It's all in game.

 

Didact

 

Comes out of ball. Has jedi powers that could easily kill MC, but he just doesn't(and how does he have that power) Then he Flys around trying to kill everyone...why? Controls robots? Why?

 

You never had an issue, because the story-line of pretty much every Bungie game was extremely bare-bones and punctuated with memorable one-liners for good measure. Sure, H2 and the Arbiter is easily the best example in the entire series. Has any other character in the series gotten that kind of treatment in-game? Not really. My point was that H4 was supposed to be the first game in the new trilogy and I thought they were reasonably effective a creating an atmosphere of mystery. Handled properly in successive titles, it could have worked well. The Didact was a cool character with room for growth and exposition as the story arc continued. "Who the fuck is this 12 foot tall bastard with force powers and a sexy monologue voice? Oh, never mind. Brian Reed offed him in the comics."

 

 

bungie did that When none of it mattered to the core story of the games, and it was all background easter-eggy stuff for lore fans.  That is totally fine.  

When something is significant to the story, you need to present it to the viewer, not make them search for it.  I liked halo 4s story for the most part, but 343 definitely laid a turd when it came to explaining the Librarian, Didact and their relationship to each other.

 

As an aside, is anybody else really bothered by the fact that chief survived the nuclear explosion at the end of the game? I mean, i don't have a problem with him surviving because he was encased in hardlight.  that's fine.  I have a problem with the fact that he HELD ONTO THE NUKE INSTEAD OF JUST THROWING THE DAMN THING!

 

You're not wrong, but the fact of the matter is that, aside from the Arbiter, Bungie did very little in terms of significant story-telling in-game. That's not inherently a bad thing, but it was clearly 343's intent to leverage and acknowledge the expanded fiction in their games. In that context, it's a respectable challenge to present a significant and coherent story in a short FPS campaign. I'm not saying it was a flawless success, but I don't have a problem with interactive media, like a game, involving the player in discovering the details. It's not a movie.

 

Not that it really matters in the aftermath of The 5.

[Infinity]

@@Infinity We still have many members who havent played the game in months. We really need to filter those members out.

 

We've also been at 91 members since the middle of June. There must be people on the waiting list...we need the help!

 

 

We only cleared 9 out because the rest were active 'enough' or were prominent forum members who deserve the spot. I've let the waiting list pile up for a bit to find some good people to add and will run through it soon.

[QuietMan]

Too bad the campaign won't be available on PC too.  I'd replay it in glorious 4k/[email protected]  I barely remember 5's story. 

[QuietMan]

We only cleared 9 out because the rest were active 'enough' or were prominent forum members who deserve the spot. I've let the waiting list pile up for a bit to find some good people to add and will run through it soon.

Did Cooper get booted again? 

[FLuFFy]

Did Cooper get booted again? 

 

No he's still there lol

[Apoll0]

You're not wrong, but the fact of the matter is that, aside from the Arbiter, Bungie did very little in terms of significant story-telling in-game. That's not inherently a bad thing, but it was clearly 343's intent to leverage and acknowledge the expanded fiction in their games. In that context, it's a respectable challenge to present a significant and coherent story in a short FPS campaign. I'm not saying it was a flawless success, but I don't have a problem with interactive media, like a game, involving the player in discovering the details. It's not a movie.

Not that it really matters in the aftermath of The 5.

 

I don't disagree that it's a challenge to introduce a character like that, but forcing people to basically loot the area to find the details they need to make sense of it all is a bad way to go.  Its not an RPG.  If they want to go that route, they need to make discovering those things a part of the objective so you can't miss it, which for the most part they did not.

 

And the campaign was too short, if it was 2-4 hours longer, they would have had time to explain everything properly. and that applies to 4 and 5.

 

I kind of dont understand these 6-8 hour campaigns.  i think they should be longer, but thats me.

[arglactable]

I don't disagree that it's a challenge to introduce a character like that, but forcing people to basically loot the area to find the details they need to make sense of it all is a bad way to go.  Its not an RPG.  If they want to go that route, they need to make discovering those things a part of the objective so you can't miss it, which for the most part they did not.

 

And the campaign was too short, if it was 2-4 hours longer, they would have had time to explain everything properly. and that applies to 4 and 5.

 

I kind of dont understand these 6-8 hour campaigns.  i think they should be longer, but thats me.

Eh. I'm not sure I would make it a mandatory objective. It's an action game. The focus shouldn't be on tons of narrative exposition. That's the main reason I don't have a problem with making a lot of information optional and tied to terminals. It rewards people who give enough of a shit to dig around. That said, I think the argument can be made that some of the information on those terminals shouldn't have been optional. It's a fine balance

 

And yes, a longer campaign would certainly make more room for exposition and character developer. It seems pretty clear that this was the intention in Halo 5 before they made the obvious and significant cuts to the story. That was certainly an advantage of Halo 2, even if it did end on a cliff-hanger before resolving.

[SweetNSavery]

Here's how I see the shitty story in Halo 5. It's shit. But it's salvageable if we got a good writer. The Didact was not killed in Escalation, but composed or digitized. They could change the story so that it was the Didact the entire time, and he took Cortanas form to fool the Chief, cause the Chief is his biggest problem. Forcing Chief into a Dyson Sphere could have been his way of removing the Chief and turning Humanity into slaves.

[Forerunner55]

Here's how I see the shitty story in Halo 5. It's shit. But it's salvageable if we got a good writer. The Didact was not killed in Escalation, but composed or digitized. They could change the story so that it was the Didact the entire time, and he took Cortanas form to fool the Chief, cause the Chief is his biggest problem. Forcing Chief into a Dyson Sphere could have been his way of removing the Chief and turning Humanity into slaves.

 

Yeah. Reed is most likely a nice guy, but as a writer he is not up to task. 343 should let him writer monitor

like the one from Halo 5.

[SweetNSavery]

Yeah. Reed is most likely a nice guy, but as a writer he is not up to task. 343 should let him writer monitor

like the one from Halo 5.

Maybe if Wars 2 is a success then we can get that writer.

[Forerunner55]

Maybe if Wars 2 is a success then we can get that writer.

 

Hopefully. 343 need better writer team right now

[SweetNSavery]

Hopefully. 343 need better writer team right now

Or maybe Joe Staten could come back..... I think the perfect group would be Greg Bear, Erik Nylund, Joe Staten, and the guy who wrote 4s story.

[VinnyMendoza]

Lol. 95℅ of storys are mediocre. Uh huh. And where in your VAST knowledge of writing did you think of that? Or are you just extremely jaded and/or speaking out of your ass?

Gaming is still in its storytelling infancy and most games do not do enough to fully explore the potential of the medium. Many writers, including acclaimed film writers have tried their hand at shoving a typical action story into a game and it doesn't work or doesn't live up to what it could be. That includes ALL Halos. Then you have a problem of a normal dramatic story being shoved into a game that compromises your characters into being ruthless over the top murderers during gameplay but in cutscenes are presented as normal people.

 

The only games I can think of off the top of my head that have truly GREAT stories are Silent Hill 1-3, MGS2-3 and The Last of Us. I'm also partial to Spec Ops: The Line but I know a lot of people think it's a ripoff of heart of darkness and that the gameplay is too generic and runs too close to what it's supposed to be mocking.

 

I'm not saying those are the only 7 but it's hard to think of a lot of truly great masterpieces. Halo 4 isn't awful, it's just average and personally I found the MC and Cortana relationship to get a little cringey sometimes.

[Forerunner55]

Or maybe Joe Staten could come back..... I think the perfect group would be Greg Bear, Erik Nylund, Joe Staten, and the guy who wrote 4s story.

 

The dude who wrote Halo 4 are working on Mass effect andromeda so that is not possible right now. I would love Greg Bear

to come back. Loved the forerunner saga tho.

[Apoll0]

That said, I think the argument can be made that some of the information on those terminals shouldn't have been optional. It's a fine balance

 

And yes, a longer campaign would certainly make more room for exposition and character developer. It seems pretty clear that this was the intention in Halo 5 before they made the obvious and significant cuts to the story. That was certainly an advantage of Halo 2, even if it did end on a cliff-hanger before resolving.

 

Yeah agreed.  They never said this outright, but i think they had to spend so much time getting the frickin engine to work properly on the Xbox One's anemic hardware @ 60 FPS that they had to cut a bunch of shit.  Not just the campaign stuff, but basic features like forge and staples like split screen.

 

Hopefully for Halo 6 they just focus on making the current engine more efficient (bring back SS please) and content content content.

[ImperiumVII]

My biggest disappointment in Halo 5's campaign was just that it could have been so much more. The scale was phenomenally set up. The trailers for the game left endless opportunities for Boss fights, big battles between Locke and MC's teams etc etc... It just didn't happen. And the "hunt" for the Chief was pretty lame. Lots of lost potential.

[Devaneaux]

So I had a shower thought today that I think 343 should implement coming into H6. As most of you remember, Halo lost its M rating with H5. Now, Halo was never really an M title to be fair, only thing really holding it there was the Flood and that wasn't exactly gorier than other games at the time. But let's try something.

 

Remember how you could shoot off parts of the Flood? I feel like this is the answer to making the Prometheans fun to fight. They already are extremely aggressive just from the little of WZFF that I have played. Crawlers and Knights will chase you the hell down if you're relatively close to them. Crawlers even cause severe damage to other crawlers nearby, similar to how you could pop infection forms en masse. 

 

Solutions to bullet sponge Anime robot issues:

 

- Make soldiers have arms and legs that can be shot off, crippling them in some form. If you shoot off 2/4 extremities, you will trigger their vulnerable state to headshot them. If you shoot off their gun, they become very melee heavy and will rush you like Brutes did in H2. Finally, make it so that if you headshot them a couple of times, have their chest open up, revealing the unstable gravity core that allows them to teleport. Shooting this will cause the soldier to implode and drag other nearby Prometheans to him, ala Voids Tear effect, allowing you to lob a grenade and hurt most of them at once. 

 

- Solider captains should be relatively the same except for one catch. If you shoot off their turret, they can pull out a hardlight sword similar to the Wardens and will rush you for the melee (similar to sword elites). Killing one while in this mode will grant you his sword, allowing you to swing a melee weapon with a very wide arc swing that does immense damage to promethean armor. 

 

- Watchers should be able to channel a summon to call in waves of crawlers like they could in H4. Furthermore, killing a watcher while trying to summon help will cause a small slipspace tear to open up and expand briefly, swallowing any enemies and any spartans in the area (the exploding flood forms).

 

So as you can see, we fill the void of the flood by enhancing the aiming skill required (and reward) to take out Prometheans already present with some of the enemy types. Crippling the prometheans will be paramount to slow their rush, creating dynamic scenarios where you are on defense initially and then switching to offense to clean them up.

 

At least that's what I could come up with. 343 even mentioned that one of their main design goals for H5 was to make the Prometheans fun to fight. Well, here's an idea going forward.