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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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H5 worse than h4?

 

What? No. No. No.

 

H4 will forever be the worst.

 

Honestly after hearing the arguments (No LAN, tons of missing features at launch, awful campaign, radar, no split screen).... I'm reconsidering.

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I don't want to buy two $95 strategy games within a couple months.

Then say that next time you post.

 

If you're looking for a strategy on buying both, then buy Halo Wars 2 first because it's a multiplayer game. X-COM 2 and the X-COM series as a whole is mainly a singleplayer experience, so you should wait a year or two for the GOTY/Platinum/Ultimate edition with all DLCs to go on sale for $20 like it does with every other Firaxis game.

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Honestly after hearing the arguments (No LAN, tons of missing features at launch, awful campaign, radar, no split screen).... I'm reconsidering.

H4 had loudouts, perks, killstreaks, the ability to see through walls, Jetpacks, other horrible AAs. Sprint was ridiculous. You could spawn with a 1sk shotgun.

 

Never forget how horrible h4 was. H5 has issues but it's no where near the absolute dumpster fire that was...The 4.

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Then say that next time you post.

 

If you're looking for a strategy on buying both, then buy Halo Wars 2 first because it's a multiplayer game. X-COM 2 and the X-COM series as a whole is mainly a singleplayer experience, so you should wait a year or two for the GOTY/Platinum/Ultimate edition with all DLCs to go on sale for $20 like it does with every other Firaxis game.

Uh, no.

 

Xcom was a top 5 game of last gen imo. Halo wars was meh.

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Uh, no.

 

Xcom was a top 5 game of last gen imo. Halo wars was meh.

If you're not gonna buy Halo Wars 2, then just say you're not buying it. Don't try and justify your reasoning with an excuse as flimsy as "X-COM is better".

 

All you're doing is inciting a flame war. This is coming from someone who loves Fireaxis games (Civ, X-COM) and doesn't give a shit about Halo Wars.

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Honestly after hearing the arguments (No LAN, tons of missing features at launch, awful campaign, radar, no split screen).... I'm reconsidering.

Core game play felt better in the five, but the five felt more half assed as whole than the 4 did.   The 4's core gameplay was just garbage.  

 

What Halo 5 did right:  Made smaller hit boxes and more precise weapons.  More accuracy and precision.   About the only thing.  

 

Everything else it did wrong:

Borezone, REQs, aiming, sprint, autos, sniping, lack of iconic Halo game types, radar, powerups, clamor, spartan dash, ground pound, Big Team Battle, lack of doubles, matchmaking.   << All of this was worse in some way.   How is that possible?   

 

It's like we all liked it by default because it least was functional unlike MCC.  Once you get past the emotional scaring off the MCC, Halo 5 is a pretty bad Halo game.  But hey it wasn't broke, just half there.  

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If you're not gonna buy Halo Wars 2, then just say you're not buying it. Don't try and justify your reasoning with an excuse as flimsy as "X-COM is better".

 

All you're doing is inciting a flame war. This is coming from someone who loves Fireaxis games (Civ, X-COM) and doesn't give a shit about Halo Wars.

Xcom is better and this is a discussion forum.

 

Though not the correct thread lol.

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Core game play felt better in the five, but the five felt more half assed as whole than the 4 did.   The 4's core gameplay was just garbage.  

 

What Halo 5 did right:  Made smaller hit boxes and more precise weapons.  More accuracy and precision.   About the only thing.  

 

Everything else it did wrong:

Borezone, REQs, aiming, sprint, autos, sniping, lack of iconic Halo game types, radar, powerups, clamor, spartan dash, ground pound, Big Team Battle, lack of doubles, matchmaking.   << All of this was worse in some way.   How is that possible?   

 

It's like we all liked it by default because it least was functional unlike MCC.  Once you get past the emotional scaring off the MCC, Halo 5 is a pretty bad Halo game.  But hey it wasn't broke, just half there.

 

The hitboxes seem smaller on the pistol and may be on the br etc but the sniper hitboxes are enormous. I often will be half a foot off of someone and hit them or get a headshot on their upper torso
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The hitboxes seem smaller on the pistol and may be on the br etc but the sniper hitboxes are enormous. I often will be half a foot off of someone and hit them or get a headshot on their upper torso

agreed, that's why I said sniping was worse. Far, far to easy. 

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Except that H5 has no where near the depth of strategy of an RTS nor the meaningful complexity (you're controlling an army, not one character) and fighting games are an entirely different beast (1v1, minimal map influence, always in each other's faces). I'm not sure what that comparison is supposed to prove.

 

What Halo 5 has is clutter. The vast majority of the "higher input" demand offered brings nothing significant to the game at all. Just look at the state of trick jumps in this game. Press sprint, gain speed, jump, release the stick, hold half of the buttons on the controller, and finally clamber. I would take relatively simple, yet demanding crouch jumps any day over that mess of thrusters, smart-link, and "modern" clamber any day. It creates the illusion of skill requirement when the majority of the jumps in H5 are actually very easy. They're just annoying and tiresome. They create even more disconnect between combat and movement. This is not Quake 3 input we're talking about. It's Halo with a bunch of bloated crap designed first and foremost to look cool and Immersive™. Halo has never been about high APM. It's been about strategy and execution skill.

There was never a comparison within the games themselves. From a purely input execution standpoint, Halo 5 has a serious skillgap. One of the things you always see new players comment on is how efficiently pros can move and some of the stuff they do (like thrust bumps) is demanding and requires strict timing similar to spring jumps.

 

Most of the useful jumps in this game require practice. Clamber jumps are easy because they are designed to be, same way that most jumps in H2/H3 are easy.

 

H5 is still massively about execution skill wether you'd like to consider it or not. Lot's of interesting things you see in higher level play.

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agreed, that's why I said sniping was worse. Far, far to easy.

 

Oh ok I thought you only meant the auto aim

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Why mythic Shotty snipers, can't we just have just normal. The one shot kill anywhere with the sniper is a bit poop.  you can just jump around snapshotting 

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But if sniping was hard, we wouldn't have so many SICK-NASTY MLG™ NORNFANG SNAPSHOT MONTAGES. Be reasonable.

Where would we be without iSpiteful's insightful REQ weapon showcases? :P

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Why mythic Shotty snipers, can't we just have just normal. The one shot kill anywhere with the sniper is a bit poop.  you can just jump around snapshotting 

Halo 6: Instagib

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There was never a comparison within the games themselves. From a purely input execution standpoint, Halo 5 has a serious skillgap. One of the things you always see new players comment on is how efficiently pros can move and some of the stuff they do (like thrust bumps) is demanding and requires strict timing similar to spring jumps.

 

Most of the useful jumps in this game require practice. Clamber jumps are easy because they are designed to be, same way that most jumps in H2/H3 are easy.

 

H5 is still massively about execution skill wether you'd like to consider it or not. Lot's of interesting things you see in higher level play.

Yes, because you have to learn a shitload of mechanical minutia in order to be baseline competent at movement in this game. What they've done is raise the skill FLOOR with a bunch of complexity, which makes people who know what they're doing look incredible to people who don't.

 

I wasn't talking about all of the clambers you're forced to use because the maps were designed to make it seem like it isn't a pointless mechanic. Most of the thrust-related physics glitches are not terribly common in general and most of the movement tech revolves around compensating for H5's clunky movement and minimizing the time your weapon is down for the sake of pointless, immersive™ animations. Much like all of the tricks to stay off of the motion tracker are compensating for the presence of that shit.

 

I never said there wasn't a skillgap. That doesn't mean it isn't as a result of complexity and clutter over depth. And of course, shooting skill is de-emphasized by overpowered automatics, redundant easy weapons, and the laughable state of the sniper.

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That is an interesting point. I think H5 may have the highest skill floor of any halo game. As in it's the most complicated for a new player to grasp. With H4 being second place and reach following in 3rd.

 

it's no wonder all three struggled to attract and maintain a casual playerbase.

 

The games then somehow also managed to have low skill ceilings as well which compounded the player retention issues.

 

 

Skill Floor(highest to lowest)

 

H5

H4

Reach

H3

HCE

H2

 

Skill Ceiling(highest to lowest)

HCE

H2

H3

H5

Reach

H4

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"Skill floor" needs a definition. 

 

Is it how much there is to know, or how hard it is to perform the basic, surface functionality of the game? 

 

If it's the former, CE is easily 2nd, if not first. If it's the latter, it's farther down. 

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Honestly after hearing the arguments (No LAN, tons of missing features at launch, awful campaign, radar, no split screen).... I'm reconsidering.

 

I can agree with you in terms of being a "complete" product. A lot of content was available at launch, we got superb graphics, Spartan Ops was very interesting and provided content and story post launch, customisation was on point with lots of interesting armor options based on progression. There were also daily and weekly challenges which gave me incentive to play. The story was really good, but I thought the level design was worse than Halo 5's. Forge was also good (Halo 5 still king).

 

Splitscreen was in the game. Production costs were high. I also didn't feel I was promised anything I didn't receive. No lies in marketing, and it Turbo was shockingly fun to play in MCC (never played it before).

 

But I still rather play Halo 5, and at least the game modes (even though not at launch) are still more fun to play than in Halo 4.

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"Skill floor" needs a definition. 

 

Is it how much there is to know, or how hard it is to perform the basic, surface functionality of the game? 

 

If it's the former, CE is easily 2nd, if not first. If it's the latter, it's farther down. 

I would loosely define it as the amount of things a player needs to know about and be able to do inorder to play the game on a basic level.

 

h5 has a lot of stuff you need to know about and be able to do just to get around the map. HCE's basics are well, quite basic. HCE is a great example of the saying "easy to learn, difficult to master". H5 is difficult to learn, easy to master

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Has anyone been reading neogaf recently? I've been reading a lot of rumours and "confirmations" that Halo 5 will be coming to PC. Obviously it could be made up, wrong or just BS. Ignore if already discussed (again been out of the loop last few pages).

 

g1FENT6.png

 

Not sure who this guy is, but it's interesting never the less.

 

Edit: Link if anyone is interested http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1225561&page=35#post205968823

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Yes, because you have to learn a shitload of mechanical minutia in order to be baseline competent at movement in this game. What they've done is raise the skill FLOOR with a bunch of complexity, which makes people who know what they're doing look incredible to people who don't.

 

I wasn't talking about all of the clambers you're forced to use because the maps were designed to make it seem like it isn't a pointless mechanic. Most of the thrust-related physics glitches are not terribly common in general and most of the movement tech revolves around compensating for H5's clunky movement and minimizing the time your weapon is down for the sake of pointless, immersive™ animations. Much like all of the tricks to stay off of the motion tracker are compensating for the presence of that shit.

 

I never said there wasn't a skillgap. That doesn't mean it isn't as a result of complexity and clutter over depth. And of course, shooting skill is de-emphasized by overpowered automatics, redundant easy weapons, and the laughable state of the sniper.

Not necessarily, but there is alot you can do if you pratice routes, jumps, etc in this game and combine it with the knowledge of skill jumps and physics based movement. Look at Frosty as an example on how to use ground pound stalling to stay alive in crucial situations. It's not just the skill floor that was raised, but the ceiling as well.

 

Tbh, there's very few routine clambers that need to be done. You can crouch jump most of them and the situations where you actually need clamber tend to be the ones where you stabilize or if you miss a ledge and need to catch it. What kind of logic is that btw? So this implies that stutter-stepping to not be heard is also bullshit because players shouldn't be able to hear where you are?

 

Movement tech can develop around the limitations of a playspace. Look at sheild dropping in Melee, being above someone in Smash is generally a bad position. Shield dropping allows you to fall through a platform MUCH faster than normal and means you can react and throw out an aerial or land safely from being in a dangerous position. Coincidentally, Bumjumping can save you MASSIVE amounts of time traversing the map and is highly risky since you can get shot out of the air while stabilizing and it's one of the loudest combination of moves in the game.

 

While there is an argument towards clutter, complexity isn't inherently bad. It makes pros look more skillful and practiced than normal, allows them to develop distinct playstyles, and allows the am or aspiring player to have things to work on.

 

Allowing players to get better in multiple facets, not just aim or teamwork, creates a skill progression system where players can grow by working on different features of their personal gameplay. The "lab" as it's called in fighting games is a good thing, and something Halo generally lacked because when faced with the issue of getting better, people had no alternatives other than "play mm" or "grind octagon."

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Yes, because you have to learn a shitload of mechanical minutia in order to be baseline competent at movement in this game. What they've done is raise the skill FLOOR with a bunch of complexity, which makes people who know what they're doing look incredible to people who don't.

 

 

Yeah... that's a skill ceiling.

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I would loosely define it as the amount of things a player needs to know about and be able to do inorder to play the game on a basic level.

 

h5 has a lot of stuff you need to know about and be able to do just to get around the map. HCE's basics are well, quite basic. HCE is a great example of the saying "easy to learn, difficult to master". H5 is difficult to learn, easy to master

 

I suppose I can agree with that. 

 

Has anyone been reading neogaf recently? I've been reading a lot of rumours and "confirmations" that Halo 5 will be coming to PC. Obviously it could be made up, wrong or just BS. Ignore if already discussed (again been out of the loop last few pages).

 

g1FENT6.png

 

Not sure who this guy is, but it's interesting never the less.

 

Edit: Link if anyone is interested http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1225561&page=35#post205968823

 

"The next mainline game is years away", there is absolutely no reason to believe that MSFT/343 would not want to push these games out as fast as possible. Besides, Halo has a huge modding base on PC. I highly doubt they're going to be able to shove REQs in peoples' faces if people can just go download mod packs and get all kinds of not-completely-shit skins. 

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