Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

[Mr Grim]

Uh. Didn't Holmes straight up say they polled the top pros and the majority favoured breakout in HCS.

he said they talked to top seeded pros, the results were split, there wasn't a majority in favor of removing breakout from hcs. There wasn't actually a mention of Josh's part of a poll specifically.

[Infinity]

Uh. Didn't Holmes straight up say they polled the top pros and the majority favoured breakout in HCS.

 

 

Over Arena Breakout. Whether he knew that condition or not, we don't know. 

[Mr Grim]

Over Arena Breakout. Whether he knew that condition or not, we don't know.

 

what was the question asked that prompted him to answer with that stat?

[Cooper]

Over Arena Breakout. Whether he knew that condition or not, we don't know. 

Hmm

 

Either way it should never have gotten to that point. If 343 actually had a finger on the pulse of the community they would have already known that breakout was not popular in HCS or the Team Arena playlist. Hell, it doesn't seem to be popular at all as the only time 343 showed us population charts breakout was 2nd last.

[Apoll0]

Uh. Didn't Holmes straight up say they polled the top pros and the majority favoured breakout in HCS.

He said it was a split decision.  Easy to see how that conversation from the pros to the HCS team, then communicated to Josh probably in December after it happened, so 2 months at least before he mentioned it here, could be changed from "replace with arena breakout" to "Remove breakout".  It wasn't a big deal then, and it isn't now.

[Infinity]

Hmm

 

Either way it should never have gotten to that point. If 343 actually had a finger on the pulse of the community they would have already known that breakout was not popular in HCS or the Team Arena playlist. Hell, it doesn't seem to be popular at all as the only time 343 showed us population charts breakout was 2nd last.

 

Exactly, but that falls on the communication between the eSports Team and the Pros. Should the community be aware of the issues? Absolutely, but not in the manner that the Snakebite/Holmes fiasco was handled.

 

As for Breakout's success, I think we all can mostly agree that Breakout was a bad allocation of development resources and had the wrong vision. I thoroughly doubt we'll see Breakout returning in future titles because of its lack of success.

[SweetNSavery]

Exactly, but that falls on the communication between the eSports Team and the Pros. Should the community be aware of the issues? Absolutely, but not in the manner that the Snakebite/Holmes fiasco was handled.

 

As for Breakout's success, I think we all can mostly agree that Breakout was a bad allocation of development resources and had the wrong vision. I thoroughly doubt we'll see Breakout returning in future titles because of its lack of success.

Idk. Sprint hasn't been successful for 3 games now and it'll probably make it to the next game, so I don't doubt that they would try again with Breakout.

[Cooper]

Exactly, but that falls on the communication between the eSports Team and the Pros. Should the community be aware of the issues? Absolutely, but not in the manner that the Snakebite/Holmes fiasco was handled.

 

As for Breakout's success, I think we all can mostly agree that Breakout was a bad allocation of development resources and had the wrong vision. I thoroughly doubt we'll see Breakout returning in future titles because of its lack of success.

No. It falls on all of 343. The hatred of breakout was not subtle. I really have no idea why it had to get to the point of the pros needing to contact anyone. 343 should have just know based on general, normal feedback.

[Cursed Lemon]

Even then, the entire spectrum of competitive issues is something that should be publicly hashed out, not drawn out on a table in the deepest chambers of Castle 343, and certainly not molded to the tune of raw, non-contextual numbers - something 343 is notorious for.

[Hot Juicy Pie]

Idk. Sprint hasn't been successful for 3 games now and it'll probably make it to the next game, so I don't doubt that they would try again with Breakout.

 

Breakout was fairly well received in Beta.  343i just chose to shove it down everyone's throat by putting it in the Arena playlist where it didn't belong and forcing the pros to play it in tournaments.

 

If it had just remained it's own separate playlist, I'm certain it would have coexisted just fine before everyone got a vile taste in their mouth for it.

[Infinity]

Idk. Sprint hasn't been successful for 3 games now and it'll probably make it to the next game, so I don't doubt that they would try again with Breakout.

 

Sprint has also been heavily iterated upon. If Breakout returns it will be strongly remodeled.

 

No. It falls on all of 343. The hatred of breakout was not subtle. I really have no idea why it had to get to the point of the pros needing to contact anyone. 343 should have just know based on general, normal feedback.

 

 

Breakout isn't universally hated to the point you are insisting, though. A lot of pros did enjoy it but realized that the meta was slowly devolving rather than expanding. It was becoming less competitive over time as they honed the gametype.

 

It's similar to Warzone Assault in that it has some unique and stellar qualities but wasn't designed to be played at the highest level possible.

[SweetNSavery]

Sprint has also been heavily iterated upon. If Breakout returns it will be strongly remodeled.

 

 

 

Breakout isn't universally hated to the point you are insisting, though. A lot of pros did enjoy it but realized that the meta was slowly devolving rather than expanding. It was becoming less competitive over time as they honed the gametype.

 

It's similar to Warzone Assault in that it has some unique and stellar qualities but wasn't designed to be played at the highest level possible.

Just because you remodel a turd doesn't mean its any less of a turd.

[Poolcat OG]

Breakout was fairly well received in Beta.  343i just chose to shove it down everyone's throat by putting it in the Arena playlist where it didn't belong and forcing the pros to play it in tournaments.

 

If it had just remained it's own separate playlist, I'm certain it would have coexisted just fine before everyone got a vile taste in their mouth for it.

I completely agree with the whole "shove it down your throat" mindset and reaction to it.

 

I'm still surprised they didn't try/still haven't tried removing the starting grenades. I feel like the #1 criticism was the "randomness" involved in god-nade kills off the start. 

[Cooper]

Sprint has also been heavily iterated upon. If Breakout returns it will be strongly remodeled.

 

 

 

Breakout isn't universally hated to the point you are insisting, though. A lot of pros did enjoy it but realized that the meta was slowly devolving rather than expanding. It was becoming less competitive over time as they honed the gametype.

 

It's similar to Warzone Assault in that it has some unique and stellar qualities but wasn't designed to be played at the highest level possible.

Second least populated permanent playlist. It literally cannot get much less popular.

[Munchiebox]

Sprint has also been heavily iterated upon. If Breakout returns it will be strongly remodeled.

I think when something has been iterated upon for 3 games and still presents problems that shits gotta go. Breakout will always be nothing but wasted dev time to me the entire thing just seems like a redundant concept. 

[Infinity]

I think when something has been iterated upon for 3 games and still presents problems that shits gotta go. Breakout will always be nothing but wasted dev time to me the entire thing just seems like a redundant concept. 

 

 

I mean a lot of people are okay with Sprint as it is now... it hardly gives a movement bonus and escapability isn't really an option.

 

You can argue that it's affect on maps is bad (look at Torque, for example) but saying the mechanic itself is broken isn't the best argument anymore.

[Il Meanbean lI]

I mean a lot of people are okay with Sprint as it is now... it hardly gives a movement bonus and escapability isn't really an option.

 

You can argue that it's affect on maps is bad (look at Torque, for example) but saying the mechanic itself is broken isn't the best argument anymore.

How does it have a bad effect on Torque?

[Infinity]

How does it have a bad effect on Torque?

 

 

Oh I'm just referring Torque being super large because of H5's movement mechanics, not Sprint specifically. To be honest I think Sprint is completely redundant in Arena and the real issues is the combination of the three movement mechanics.

[Munchiebox]

I mean a lot of people are okay with Sprint as it is now... it hardly gives a movement bonus and escapability isn't really an option.

 

You can argue that it's affect on maps is bad (look at Torque, for example) but saying the mechanic itself is broken isn't the best argument anymore.

I know some people were fine with it in reach and h4 as well I still say it brings more negatives than positives but I think its problems are amplified by the other movement based mechanics in h5.

[Mr Grim]

@@Sal1ent most pros (speaking on behalf of others apparently :/) have made it clear they don't want breakout, if i remember correctly (PLEASE correct me) you should be removing it right?

 

We had a dialogue with pros about Breakout (early in HWC, before Xmas break) and the feedback was split. A number of pros on top seeded teams said they wanted to keep it on the circuit, in part because they had put in the time to practice with competition in mind. There was not a majority in favor of removing. That said, we remain open to revisiting in future (post-HWC) and making changes based on feedback. Up to and including removing/replacing the mode for competitive play.

Original interaction, there's no mention of arena breakout vs regular breakout, the question was about whether or not breakout would stay on the circuit, josh said the pros were split on the subject, when in reality that wasn't the actual subject of the dialogue, so the stat was used in an entirely wrong context, either by accident or on purpose. If the former were true a simple clarification by the devs would've cleared everything up, yet nothing was said by 343.

[Killmachine]

I mean a lot of people are okay with Sprint as it is now... it hardly gives a movement bonus and escapability isn't really an option.

 

You can argue that it's affect on maps is bad (look at Torque, for example) but saying the mechanic itself is broken isn't the best argument anymore.

Just because it isn't as bad doesn't make it good.

 

It still ruins zoning, it still widens maps, it still prevents us from using our weapons, it still lets players escape, etc. It should be gone entirely.

[Cursed Lemon]

I'm really sick of taking bad things for Halo and trying to minimize their impact as much as possible while keeping them in the game.

[Hot Juicy Pie]

Just because you remodel a turd doesn't mean its any less of a turd.

 

But.. but...my turd is looking pretty good these days.

 

[MultiLockOn]

Breakout might not be complete ass if they treat it like any other 1 life game on the market, eg CS.  Instead of having deep and complex maps with multiple counters and pathways with offensive/defensive, they literally did the complete opposite and gave us open savannahs and paintball courts for maps.  I don't understand it.  There's very tangible and accessible examples of how to do 1 life modes in other games, just replicate it.  By giving everyone these bullshit dumbed down maps with absolutely no thought behind them, OR using dev maps which aren't suited for 1 life gameplay, it's like they don't give a fuck about their own mode.  It'd be laughably simple to make it work.

Seriously.  I started on a remake of CS's De_dust and de_dust 2 which are horizontally downscaled and vertically upscaled to make more sense within Halo, but the pathing is still the same.  Gonna try breakout matches on it and I imagine it'll immediately be a hundred times better than anything we've seen.

[Killmachine]

Breakout might not be complete ass if they treat it like any other 1 life game on the market, eg CS. Instead of having deep and complex maps with multiple counters and pathways with offensive/defensive, they literally did the complete opposite and gave us open savannahs and paintball courts for maps. I don't understand it. There's very tangible and accessible examples of how to do 1 life modes in other games, just replicate it. By giving everyone these bullshit dumbed down maps with absolutely no thought behind them, OR using dev maps which aren't suited for 1 life gameplay, it's like they don't give a fuck about their own mode. It'd be laughably simple to make it work.

 

Seriously. I started on a remake of CS's De_dust and de_dust 2 which are horizontally downscaled and vertically upscaled to make more sense within Halo, but the pathing is still the same. Gonna try breakout matches on it and I imagine it'll immediately be a hundred times better than anything we've seen.

The real question is why a 1 life game mode was considered competitive Halo when its gameplay does NOT suit 1 life gametypes. The principles of Halo just do not hold up in elimination modes