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CyReN

Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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The infrequency that you are referencing sounds a lot like the CE pistol.  Everybody claims it is OP because of tsk, but in fact the skill gap makes a tsk for most players a some what seldom occurrence.   If that's the way this new pistol works, then I'm all for it baby!

 

Exactly, I'm definitely not saying get rid of the pistol. I'm all for it. But to say it's more efficient than the BR is silly.

So you're going to bring up variables for the BR, but ignore everything the Pistol has to offer? Does the swap speed, fast reloads, and quick thrust recovery not matter suddenly?

I addressed these points a while ago. Those factors are absolutely minimal compared to killing power. Swap speed is..a trace factor at best. Fast reloads? Give me the more powerful weapon to kill with and to kill you across the map and I will spot you reload time, since you can't reload when you're dead. And quick thrust recovery? Really?

 

Here was my original post on the topic.

 

"Here's the thing with this argument. The factors you cite for the pistol just don't tip the scales of the ease of use of the BR. Unless they did some serious, serious nerfing of the BR that we saw in the PAX or Gamescom build or whatever, the BR will just be the better weapon overall, end of story (and yes I know there was a slight ROF nerf). The only factor that REALLY matters in the factors you mentioned is reload time. But I'm happy to give the opponent a split second reload advantage if he is willing to give me a more effective weapon before I need to reload lol. You can name small, circumstantial benefits of the pistol and make a nice list as you have done, but it just doesn't matter.

 

It's like me, a lifetime baseball player going up against a major league pitcher. The pitcher might be using a slightly slick baseball. The wind might be blowing out. The mound might be a little bit lower than he'd like. The pitcher may not have gotten as many warm up pitches as he wanted. I might be feeling like I know what this pitcher can throw.

 

But he is still going to get me out. Because you can name little factors all day, but when you look at the results, it will be as if they didn't exist at all."

 

 

 

 

Yup. Not sure how people aren't getting this - it's pretty simple.

 

Add in the fact that we're still talking about a Halo game with long kill times that will necessarily involve lots of teamshot, and the technical superiority of the pistol looks even more unrealistic. The entire meta around teamshot revolves around one of two things:

  1. Shooting at one enemy with a teammate so that you can kill him before he can kill either of you - or -
  2. Reliably put the most amount of damage into enemy before you die so that the person who killed you can be cleaned up by another teammate, or killed by a pushing teammate. 

In both scenarios, the important factor is hitting your shots, not having crazy individual skill. Considering this, an extremely effective strategy would be to try and use a weapon which gives you the highest chance if hitting your shots.

 

 

It's not.

 

I agree completely.

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And quick thrust recovery? Really?

-Thrust to make you miss a bullet or two in your burst, forcing you to take a fifth shot

-I recovery from my thrust quickly and can start shooting again, likely before you're even ready for your next burst.

 

I skimmed the rest of your post, but if the BR was really that much better, don't you think it would be getting more kills per game during the Gamescom exhibition?

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much either of us think the BR might be better or worse. What matters is that AR/Magnum starts are what's going to be the competitive settings. The Magnum has been proving itself as a viable starting weapon, and is good enough for some people to stick with. I still believe BR starts would be unhealthy to the game.

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It's already Thursday people. Next week isn't very far.

 

Then again, neither is October 27th :D

Shhh. It feels very far.  :halo:

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No matter how you word it, the thing is going to have a lower average TTK. There is no getting around this issue.

 

and that's the benefit of picking it up...

 

Pistol is more consistent and at it's best, does kill faster than BR.

 

BR at its best is easier to use and has better range, hence being a niche weapon.

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and that's the benefit of picking it up...

 

Pistol is more consistent and at it's best, does kill faster than BR.

 

BR at its best is easier to use and has better range, hence being a niche weapon.

But the discrepancy in kill time isn't great enough to justify the discrepancy in difficulty of use. Plus, having more range does not mean it's a "niche" weapon, because it's not like it doesn't work at short ranges too. Being easier to use and having greater range is a terrible combination if you're spawning with something different. The limited pistol range makes it a niche weapon.

 

The Sniper isn't even on that many maps from what we've been seeing. And even including those maps, none of them seem to have ranges long enough that a Magnum user won't be able to poke a Sniper out of scope.

 

Being able to "poke a Sniper out of scope" isn't good enough though. We've seen this before. If you don't pose a viable threat to a sniper, not just pinging them out of scope but a "wow I better move quick or I'll get melted" threat, then the sniper will dominate.

 

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-Thrust to make you miss a bullet or two in your burst, forcing you to take a fifth shot

-I recovery from my thrust quickly and can start shooting again, likely before you're even ready for your next burst.

 

I skimmed the rest of your post, but if the BR was really that much better, don't you think it would be getting more kills per game during the Gamescom exhibition?

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much either of us think the BR might be better or worse. What matters is that AR/Magnum starts are what's going to be the competitive settings. The Magnum has been proving itself as a viable starting weapon, and is good enough for some people to stick with. I still believe BR starts would be unhealthy to the game.

I feel your first point is off. Wait until the game comes out and see that thruster isn't some magnificent offensive weapon like you perceive it to be. You will not gain a practical advantage by using thrusters in the middle of an even fight lol.

 

The post you skimmed is the last argument you'll hear from me on the issue, so if you want to better understand my viewpoint, my opinion is out there.

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I wish they would atleast put a couple BR start gametypes in at launch. Just to see the difference.

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Being able to "poke a Sniper out of scope" isn't good enough though. We've seen this before. If you don't post a viable threat to a sniper, not just pinging them out of scope but a "wow I better move quick or I'll get melted" threat, then the sniper will dominate.

If you notice the maps we've seen snipers on as of late, they don't really have a bunch of long lines of sight where a Magnum wouldn't be sufficient enough to challenge a Sniper properly. Maybe a few spots on Colosseum, but there are enough BRs and DMRs if it really becomes an issue.

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But the discrepancy in kill time isn't great enough to justify the discrepancy in difficulty of use. Plus, having more range does not mean it's a "niche" weapon, because it's not like it doesn't work at short ranges too. Being easier to use and having greater range is a terrible combination if you're spawning with something different. The limited pistol range makes it a niche weapon.

 

 

Being able to "poke a Sniper out of scope" isn't good enough though. We've seen this before. If you don't post a viable threat to a sniper, not just pinging them out of scope but a "wow I better move quick or I'll get melted" threat, then the sniper will dominate.

 

Niche was probably the wrong word, yeah. 

 

Regardless, there are cases where I imagine the pistol is going to be more useful, but the BR or other rifles should be picked up frequently.

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and that's the benefit of picking it up...

 

Pistol is more consistent and at it's best, does kill faster than BR.

 

BR at its best is easier to use and has better range, hence being a niche weapon.

 

1.20s vs. 1.28s isn't much at all.

 

The beta - with the 1.00s killtime for the Magnum allowed you to beat a BR even if you missed a shot and your opponent hit all of his.  That's too much advantage - I agree.

 

I would have preferred something in the middle.  1.10 - 1.15s for the Magnum would be nice.

 

Other than that, I don't have a problem with the auto / pistol starts.

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I wish they would atleast put a couple BR start gametypes in at launch. Just to see the difference.

 

343 have listened to us bro, Swat is BR starts brother.

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1.20s vs. 1.28s isn't much at all.

 

The beta - with the 1.00s killtime for the Magnum allowed you to beat a BR even if you missed a shot and your opponent hit all of his.  That's too much advantage - I agree.

 

I would have preferred something in the middle.  1.10 - 1.15s for the Magnum would be nice.

 

Other than that, I don't have a problem with the auto / pistol starts.

I'd like to play with damage settings to see how a 4SK Magnum would work out, but I fear that would buff the BR a little too much.

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If you want an extreme comparison, look at a mid-range pistol vs. sniper rifle battle in Halo CE. The sniper is more difficult to use at the range but it can kill in 1 shot. Now see how many times the sniper actually wins that fight.

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I'd like to play with damage settings to see how a 4SK Magnum would work out, but I fear that would buff the BR a little too much.

 

I'd rather up the RoF on the Magnum to achieve the TTK reduction, rather than buffing the damage and slowing the RoF.  In either case, I'd leave the BR alone.  That's a feel thing, though.  I prefer fast shooting pistols.  The H3 pistol is just horrible and unfun (for me, anyway).

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If you want an extreme comparison, look at a mid-range pistol vs. sniper rifle battle in Halo CE. The sniper is more difficult to use at the range but it can kill in 1 shot. Now see how many times the sniper actually wins that fight.

 

I wouldn't say that's extreme.  I like that about CE.  A lot.  Also means that being able to snipe well in CE (and I'm awful at that) is truly a win-generating skill.  It also means that most of the snipers go unused, so you can put lots of snipers on the map.  Anyone who wants to use them and get better at them has the ability to do so.

 

It's one of the truly beautiful things about CE, IMO.

 

And I suck at the game . . . yet I still love to play it.

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I'd rather up the RoF on the Magnum to achieve the TTK reduction, rather than buffing the damage and slowing the RoF.  In either case, I'd leave the BR alone.  That's a feel thing, though.  I prefer fast shooting pistols.  The H3 pistol is just horrible and unfun (for me, anyway).

I'm just saying in the context of custom games. Unless we get some weapon sliders, 4Sk is the best we'll be able to do.

But it would all go down the drain if we turn the BR into a 3SK with higher damage settings.

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I'm just saying in the context of custom games. Unless we get some weapon sliders, 4Sk is the best we'll be able to do.

But it would all go down the drain if we turn the BR into a 3SK with higher damage settings.

 

Let's hope for the ability to customize individual weapons @Sal1ent.

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