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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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The funny thing is with the kill times in Counterstrike sprint wouldn't really come into play. What are you gonna do off T spawn on Dust 2? Sprint through double doors to long? You'll end up being picked off in seconds.

The reason I don't agree with sprint in Halo (aside from wanting classic Halo) is that with the extended kill times it's mostly used defensively to retreat when you put yourself in an exposed position. To turn it into an offensive ability you need to remove the option to sprint away. The same ultimately goes for thruster packs. It definitely doesn't seem like they're going anywhere soon but they really need to be changed from "get out of certain death by pressing X."

Someone brought up having it so that getting hit means your sprint stops. I feel that this is at least worth testing. The ability can still be used defensively but you wouldn't be able to retreat instantly, instead you would need to change your positioning so you can't get hit and then you would be free to sprint. It's obviously not ideal but it probably moves sprint from being heavily defensive to being more useful as an offensive ability.

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The funny thing is with the kill times in Counterstrike sprint wouldn't really come into play. What are you gonna do off T spawn on Dust 2? Sprint through double doors to long? You'll end up being picked off in seconds.

 

The reason I don't agree with sprint in Halo (aside from wanting classic Halo) is that with the extended kill times it's mostly used defensively to retreat when you put yourself in an exposed position. To turn it into an offensive ability you need to remove the option to sprint away. The same ultimately goes for thruster packs. It definitely doesn't seem like they're going anywhere soon but they really need to be changed from "get out of certain death by pressing X."

 

Someone brought up having it so that getting hit means your sprint stops. I feel that this is at least worth testing. The ability can still be used defensively but you wouldn't be able to retreat instantly, instead you would need to change your positioning so you can't get hit and then you would be free to sprint. It's obviously not ideal but it probably moves sprint from being heavily defensive to being more useful as an offensive ability.

Adding up to what you said, how about if you take damage while sprinting, you would be "banned" from using sprint for 5 seconds. I thought this might decrease sprint's "flight" mechanic to it.

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The armor lock thing is a weird point, because in its design it's a broken mechanic, most of the time it delays the inevitable, but sometimes your team comes saves you.  no room for skill in either scenario.

The AL thing is actually a perfect point because it provides another example of where a slight disadvantage to using something doesn't mean it automatically increases the skill gap. I don't see how what you've mentioned here is supposed to negate that. Forget about however "broken" you think AL is, that has nothing to do with the point about whether or not a disadvantage to using something automatically = maintains skill gap.

 

If your claim is that "if a feature's use comes with a slight disadvantage, then it automatically maintains skill gap", then all I have to do to demonstrate the innacuray of that claim is provide one example of where this isn't true.

 

I could easily see them making the clamber animation .5-.6 seconds or so, which is about 2 shots. If 2 free shots isn't a big advantage i don't know what is. A good player will know that In most situations its going to be better to just fall, but there is always the possibility you clamber and then out-BR the person you were fighting even through the 2 shot disadvantage, in which case you're deemed the most skilled player of that moment. or alternatively you know your teammate will be backing you up on that guy thats shooting you so you clamber and kill him due to good communication, which also means your awareness was better and you deserve the win. A low skill player will almost always instinctively clamber, meaning that they get punished.

This is based on the assumption that it's almost always going to be better not to clamber your way out of a bad situation, and I can't agree with that. I don't see where that assumption is coming from.

I would have to say that if someone becomes weak and has almost no chance of winning the encounter, then clambering will almost certainly provide them with the more likely escape from that situation, and not only that, but it will do so with much less effort (the press of a button).

 

What you're trying to suggest here is that it takes more skill for that player to press a button and clamber away with the slight risk that they'll be shot while doing so, than it is for them to: 1) have to skill jump away in the absence of clamber and STILL have that same slight risk of being shot while doing so, and 2) miss the jump and have to out-shoot and out-strafe their opponenet. I think you're kidding yourself.

 

Also, keep in mind that one of the ways in which you're arguing for Clamber is by saying that there's a risk of being shot whilst in the process of Clambering away. But what you continue to ignore is the fact that you would have a risk of being shot if you were to skill jump yourself away in the absence of Clamber. But skill jumping obviously requires more input than simply pressing a button.

 

I guess my point of view is, if you're not doing crazy trick jumping videos, there isn't many jumps that I can think of in the game I can think of that are genuinely HARD, that also affect competitive gameplay. G1-G2 jump on guardian is the hardest one i can think of atm. Every other jump besides that one take maybe all of 5 minutes in a custom game to master. If it takes 5 minutes to master this skill jump, the skill gap is essentially artificial. Artificial skill gap is pointless, it just alienates new players rather than motivating them to become better, which is what we want for the scene. So say it's the beginning of a Pit slayer game, you're going for rockets. you miss the plat-green jump, and no one else went that way. you should automatically lose rockets because you messed up a jump that takes all of 2 minutes to master? If you clambered, you're still at a disadvantage for getting the rockets since they'll get there .5seconds before you, but they still have to FIGHT for it. I prefer the scenario where 5 minutes of effort gives you a small advantage, as opposed to removing the fight altogether if someone messed up a jump.

If you can't think of many trick jumps that are potentially difficult to pull off in the midst of a firefight that is being lost, then you simply haven't been paying much attention to that side of Halo. When I play 1v1s with highly skilled players, something I always notice is how much they use the map and its jumps to their advantage. They do three things better than me due to their superior jumping skills:

1) They get the jump on me more easily because they have more angles to approach me from.

2) They escape from me more easily by having more angles to escape from.

3) They get to advantageous positions faster than me.

 

If you think these things don't play a big part in competitive Halo, then you've been playing a different game to me.

 

Also, you claim that the skill gap is artificial, which not only goes against what you admitted earlier about Clamber reducing the skill-gap, but it also simply isn't true. Artificial would imply that it's not really there. The skill gap for jumping absolutely is present, whether you like it or not, because it's something that players can learn and get better at and have a large opportunity to continue getting better at.

 

Another point, clamber wouldn't even really assist you in a jump like that G1-G2 jump because it only pulls you up onto platforms, it doesn't grab onto the tiny ledges that make the truly hard skill based jumps possible.

One, you need to keep in mind that maps will be designed around this new mechanic. We've already seen this demonstrated in the maps we've seen so far.

Two, it doesn't matter if there will still be a few jumps that can only be trick jumped; Clamber reduces the skill-gap for jumping by replacing a lot of what we used to have to do with this new mechanic. It's not very convincing to say that there might still be a little bit of crouch jumping left in there.

 

The auto aim example is also different than what we're talking about. Auto aim has been the biggest problem with the skill gap since H2, not sprint, not AAs. Aiming is one of the CORE mechanics that make the skill gap to begin with, skill jumping is not.

You do an extraordinary job of missing the point that's being made when examples are used.

 

Auto-aim is used as an example of how the more a game assists players and holds their hands, the more the skill gap closes. Forget about whether or not it's one of the "core" mechanics. You're getting yourself very confused here.

 

The focus of halo's skill gaps is shooting, awareness, and communication. Skill jumping should be an advantage, I agree, but not such a huge one that clamber is inherently bad. As long as clamber gets the right kind of disadvantage during/after the beta I think it'll be fine. I'll be honest, clamber is probably my least favorite of the announced features, but it can be balanced.

All you're doing is mentioning three things which are important about Halo to you, as if those three things are objectively the only important things to Halo. But the reality is that those things are unique to what you love about Halo.

I happen to greatly appreciate the skill-gap (and fun) that comes from the skill jump aspect of Halo. If skill jumping and the skill gap that comes from it isn't very important for your personal enjoyment of Halo, then that's fine and that's a subjective point. But what's not subjective is how Clamber will impact the skill gap, which is exactly how this discussion started out in the first place.

 

You say it could be "balanced", and I'm interested in what you actually mean by that. That word gets thrown around a lot.

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I really like the idea of making it so you can't sprint after being shot, and get knocked out of sprint if you are shot. It also should be linked to Thruster Pack as well imo, let's just say it's something like.

 

-If you are shot you can't Sprint for 3 seconds, the timer resets every time a new bullet hits you. If Sprinting when shot you will be knocked out of Sprint.

 

-Can't use Thruster Pack for 3 seconds after Sprinting

 

-Can't Sprint for 3 seconds after using Thruster Pack.

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I suggest everyone that doesn't want sprint in the game just flat out refuses to buy the game. That's how you send a message. 

I actually plan on that, however, I feel that despite the number of people that hate sprint, most will probably still cave and buy the game.

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I actually plan on that, however, I feel that despite the number of people that hate sprint, most will probably still cave and buy the game.

 

Same, i just can't be bothered trying to make do with another bastardised version of the Halo we all grew up with and loved. I lost all faith in 343 a long long time ago and the fact that the maps have been yet again built around sprint. Just awful.

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I actually plan on that, however, I feel that despite the number of people that hate sprint, most will probably still cave and buy the game.

If I refused to buy a game because I don't like 1 or 2 certain mechanics, I'd end up never buying anything

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I really like the idea of making it so you can't sprint after being shot, and get knocked out of sprint if you are shot. It also should be linked to Thruster Pack as well imo, let's just say it's something like.

 

-If you are shot you can't Sprint for 3 seconds, the timer resets every time a new bullet hits you. If Sprinting when shot you will be knocked out of Sprint.

 

-Can't use Thruster Pack for 3 seconds after Sprinting

 

-Can't Sprint for 3 seconds after using Thruster Pack.

Why even do that though? That would be so fucking awkward to play with, casuals would just wonder why they can't do anything for seemingly random amounts of time, it just wouldn't be fun. The game is supposed to be fun and every "balance" change for sprint ignores this. They never replaced the fun lost when they moved away from no sprint, maps that flow correctly and people that can't just peace out randomly 24/7. Their problem is fun. They don't even seem to understand whats happened because of all of the alterations. It has nothing to do with the balance, which is crap, but with the fact that they're removing fun in the pursuit of balancing a mechanic they're clearly not equipped to add into the game in a way that adds to the experience.

 

Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication - A quote that 343 needs to live by because they're getting absolutely nowhere with change for the sake of change and complexity for the sake of complexity. Nobody cares about the bullet points you print on the back of the box once they play the game and its a complex steaming pile of garbage.

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If I refused to buy a game because I don't like 1 or 2 certain mechanics, I'd end up never buying anything

Thing is, I don't need new games. I could literally play Halo 1 and 2, CS 1.6 and GO, and Starcraft Brood War and 2 for the rest of my life. Issue with consoles specifically is people always flock to the new games. I still wish we could get a Halo 1 with spectator mode, and I think a lot of places would've gone with that had MCC A: Worked and B: had spectator mode. I honestly think the omission of spectator mode in MCC was 343 keeping the competitive community locked into their new games.

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Someone brought up having it so that getting hit means your sprint stops. I feel that this is at least worth testing. The ability can still be used defensively but you wouldn't be able to retreat instantly, instead you would need to change your positioning so you can't get hit and then you would be free to sprint. It's obviously not ideal but it probably moves sprint from being heavily defensive to being more useful as an offensive ability.

If the dev has to resort to this to balance sprint then it should just be removed. Spartans being unable to sprint because their shields are taking hits is nonsensical from a story perspective, wouldn't you think the armor designers would make being able to sprint under fire be a priority for the soldiers wearing their suits? What mechanism of the shield flaring would render the Human being unable to run as fast? These things don't make sense and the fact that they're being brought up as a desperate measure to make sprint balanced in the game likely just shows how far you have to bend reality to make sprint playable in Halo. It's broken and should be gone.

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I'm not meaning to sound like a condescending twat but can i ask, what is it you enjoy from sprint?

Nothing its just that sprint can be balanced makes gameplay more fast paced and you.People need to stop complaining the essentials of halo are balanced starts,no AAs,and small to medium sized competitive maps.
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Nothing its just that sprint can be balanced makes gameplay more fast paced and you.People need to stop complaining the essentials of halo are balanced starts,no AAs,and small to medium sized competitive maps.

 

What makes you think sprint in Halo can be balanced? We have seen it tried twice now and fail massively twice. It doesn't make the game more fast paced because the maps have to be made bigger to compensate for sprint. 

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If the dev has to resort to this to balance sprint then it should just be removed. Spartans being unable to sprint because their shields are taking hits is nonsensical from a story perspective, wouldn't you think the armor designers would make being able to sprint under fire be a priority for the soldiers wearing their suits? What mechanism of the shield flaring would render the Human being unable to run as fast? These things don't make sense and the fact that they're being brought up as a desperate measure to make sprint balanced in the game likely just shows how far you have to bend reality to make sprint playable in Halo. It's broken and should be gone.

I agree with you totally. To be honest I never thought we would see sprint in Halo and then when we did I never thought it would last after how people reacted to it in Reach and then I never thought we would again after seeing how people reacted to it in H4.

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Sprint would be acceptable if when you took damage it gets cancled. Sort of like descope but desprint

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I believe universal thrusters is the one new mechanic that can actually add something to the gameplay, with some changes though, as in it's current form you can easily back out of bad situations.

 

I would like to see everyone start off with only 2 thrusts that do not recharge, unless you refresh that energy by finding "energy capsules", around the map or obtain your opponent's unused energy after a kill. I also think that if the thruster mechanic was only able to be used when you have a red reticle, it would encourage ofensive play. This means that you should be able to shoot while thrusting,  and with a killtime of 1 second or less on the utility weapon I think the mechanic's negatives could be mitigated.

 

You could even tie the thruster to your shields where you could only use it with half shields or more so as to eliminate the chance that someone down a shot will thrust around a corner to safety. I think all these changes would make thruster into just an enhancement for your basic movement and strafing abilities as it should be.

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Some thoughts: 

 

In the gameplays I've watched, when the players are sprinting around the map, thruster packing, clambering, ground pounding and using the SMG the game looks exactly like COD nearly down to the pixels. If the final game ends up being dominated by this playstyle I feel it will be the worst Halo off launch, ever. And that's saying something.

 

On the other hand, when the players are moving around the map normally and having firefights, the game not only looks like Halo, it looks like a great Halo. The kill times and aim assist balance looks better than it has been since Halo 1. 

 

Which of these two extremes the game is going to end up lying at on launch I have no clue. It'll depend on how all the movement abilities and whatnot are balanced off each other and how finely tuned the weapon sandbox ends up being. If sprint ends up being too powerful, or ground pound, or clamber, or the SMG is too powerful, the game is going to be complete and utter garbage. 

 

We're already off to a bad start with the inclusion of sprint. I would be much more willing to be open minded about everything else if sprint was gone, but it looks like we are already dicked with sprint being back in and the maps being stretched. A lot of you are acting like the delay on shield charge is going to balance sprint, and it might make it barely workable in competitive play due to the small maps and team coordination making it easy to clean up players, but in the other 90% of games where you're not playing on a small arena map with solid teammates sprint is going to be exactly the same as it was in H4. This is a huge issue not only for us, as I'm willing to bet even the most hyper-competitive of you still like to venture into more casual playlists on occasion, but also for the vast majority of people who play Halo.

 

I think this game ought to be balanced like Murder Miners if they're going to go the route they seem to want to with the movement abilities. MM has sprint, wall jumps and a boost that is highly reminiscent of thrusters, and plays fantastically. The lessons we can take from MM are:

1. Sprint is only going to work when its difference from the base movement speed is tiny (I think the sprint in MM is around 115%?) and the weapon kill times are fast AND the maps are built around the base movement speed. We have one third of this equation with H5.

2. Thruster is definitely the movement ability I'm least worried about for H5. A short burst of speed in any direction can actually add a little bit of meta to the movement and general combat of the game.

3. Replace clamber with a wall jump. Wall jump is actually one of the best things about the combat in MM, as it brings huge flexibility to the movement and jumping without sacrificing skill jumps (the skill jump just gets pushed from first jump to the second jump). It also allows for increased verticality in the maps because there are now jumps you can make with a single jump, jumps you can make with a double jump, jumps you can make with a double jump and a skill jump, and of course you can create parts of the map you can't jump to and thus must take a route around the map to get to that part, just like we already have in Halo maps. Wall jump, when done properly, honestly adds tons of new meta to both map design and combat/movement. On the other hand, clamber just looks like a clutch for players who miss jumps. 

 

I really hope this game ends up being great, and I am happy that the beta is an entire year out. However, unless 343 is willing to rework entire significant parts of the game I have a really difficult time seeing how this game can be a true successor to the original Halo trilogy and not just another COD/Destiny/Titanfall x Halo hybrid in the tradition of Reach and H4. 

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The AL thing is actually a perfect point because it provides another example of where a slight disadvantage to using something doesn't mean it automatically increases the skill gap. I don't see how what you've mentioned here is supposed to negate that. Forget about however "broken" you think AL is, that has nothing to do with the point about whether or not a disadvantage to using something automatically = maintains skill gap.

 

If your claim is that "if a feature's use comes with a slight disadvantage, then it automatically maintains skill gap", then all I have to do to demonstrate the innacuray of that claim is provide one example of where this isn't true.

 

This is based on the assumption that it's almost always going to be better not to clamber your way out of a bad situation, and I can't agree with that. I don't see where that assumption is coming from.

I would have to say that if someone becomes weak and has almost no chance of winning the encounter, then clambering will almost certainly provide them with the more likely escape from that situation, and not only that, but it will do so with much less effort (the press of a button).

 

What you're trying to suggest here is that it takes more skill for that player to press a button and clamber away with the slight risk that they'll be shot while doing so, than it is for them to: 1) have to skill jump away in the absence of clamber and STILL have that same slight risk of being shot while doing so, and 2) miss the jump and have to out-shoot and out-strafe their opponenet. I think you're kidding yourself.

 

Also, keep in mind that one of the ways in which you're arguing for Clamber is by saying that there's a risk of being shot whilst in the process of Clambering away. But what you continue to ignore is the fact that you would have a risk of being shot if you were to skill jump yourself away in the absence of Clamber. But skill jumping obviously requires more input than simply pressing a button.

 

If you can't think of many trick jumps that are potentially difficult to pull off in the midst of a firefight that is being lost, then you simply haven't been paying much attention to that side of Halo. When I play 1v1s with highly skilled players, something I always notice is how much they use the map and its jumps to their advantage. They do three things better than me due to their superior jumping skills:

1) They get the jump on me more easily because they have more angles to approach me from.

2) They escape from me more easily by having more angles to escape from.

3) They get to advantageous positions faster than me.

 

If you think these things don't play a big part in competitive Halo, then you've been playing a different game to me.

 

Also, you claim that the skill gap is artificial, which not only goes against what you admitted earlier about Clamber reducing the skill-gap, but it also simply isn't true. Artificial would imply that it's not really there. The skill gap for jumping absolutely is present, whether you like it or not, because it's something that players can learn and get better at and have a large opportunity to continue getting better at.

 

One, you need to keep in mind that maps will be designed around this new mechanic. We've already seen this demonstrated in the maps we've seen so far.

Two, it doesn't matter if there will still be a few jumps that can only be trick jumped; Clamber reduces the skill-gap for jumping by replacing a lot of what we used to have to do with this new mechanic. It's not very convincing to say that there might still be a little bit of crouch jumping left in there.

 

You do an extraordinary job of missing the point that's being made when examples are used.

 

Auto-aim is used as an example of how the more a game assists players and holds their hands, the more the skill gap closes. Forget about whether or not it's one of the "core" mechanics. You're getting yourself very confused here.

 

All you're doing is mentioning three things which are important about Halo to you, as if those three things are objectively the only important things to Halo. But the reality is that those things are unique to what you love about Halo.

I happen to greatly appreciate the skill-gap (and fun) that comes from the skill jump aspect of Halo. If skill jumping and the skill gap that comes from it isn't very important for your personal enjoyment of Halo, then that's fine and that's a subjective point. But what's not subjective is how Clamber will impact the skill gap, which is exactly how this discussion started out in the first place.

 

You say it could be "balanced", and I'm interested in what you actually mean by that. That word gets thrown around a lot.

So essentially what we've got here is a fundamental difference in what makes a good Halo game. I think skill jumping is important, but can coexist with clamber, but you think it's essential and can't. I'm ok with that. We'll see when the beta comes out i guess.

 

By balanced i mean it has a place in the game without breaking the fundamental mechanics of the game competitively, which for me is shooting skill, awareness, and communication. It's useful, but as long as it's better to make the skill jump in the first place, and clamber has downsides, I'm fine with it in the game, I don't think it'll break it.

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So essentially what we've got here is a fundamental difference in what makes a good Halo game. I think skill jumping is important, but can coexist with clamber, but you think it's essential and can't. I'm ok with that. We'll see when the beta comes out i guess.

 

By balanced i mean it has a place in the game without breaking the fundamental mechanics of the game competitively, which for me is shooting skill, awareness, and communication. It's useful, but as long as it's better to make the skill jump in the first place, and clamber has downsides, I'm fine with it in the game, I don't think it'll break it.

I wrote that gigantic post and all you got from it is that I don't like clamber? Haha :)

 

I don't necessarily think that clamber is going to wreck the game, but I do think when you combine clamber with slide, sprint, ground pound and thrusters the game is going to basically be a COD/Titanfall clone. Which isn't a good thing. Halo is basically the last game not following the general military shooter groundwork set by COD and the general population of Halo doesn't want to play a Halo x COD/Titanfall/Destiny clone even if it plays relatively well within the context of a Halo x COD/Titanfall/Destiny clone, as proven by H4. 

 

I really don't understand why 343 seems to believe Halo needs to evolve so heavily. MCC generated more hype and interest in Halo than there has been since H3. Why do they keep throwing new ideas at the wall to see what sticks and even gluing stuff that didn't stick back on? We have this wonderful, successful game that is pretty much universally loved. Why keep taking these risks and fucking around with the formula?

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Why even do that though? That would be so fucking awkward to play with, casuals would just wonder why they can't do anything for seemingly random amounts of time, it just wouldn't be fun. The game is supposed to be fun and every "balance" change for sprint ignores this. They never replaced the fun lost when they moved away from no sprint, maps that flow correctly and people that can't just peace out randomly 24/7. Their problem is fun. They don't even seem to understand whats happened because of all of the alterations. It has nothing to do with the balance, which is crap, but with the fact that they're removing fun in the pursuit of balancing a mechanic they're clearly not equipped to add into the game in a way that adds to the experience.

 

Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication - A quote that 343 needs to live by because they're getting absolutely nowhere with change for the sake of change and complexity for the sake of complexity. Nobody cares about the bullet points you print on the back of the box once they play the game and its a complex steaming pile of garbage.

Maybe 3 seconds is a little to long?  I like the way another person just put it by saying it's basically descoping for sprint I don't see how that would confuse anyone. The only time it would be confusing for anyone is if they were trying to run away from a battle and getting shot in the back a bunch, eventually most will learn to not use sprint to run away.

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