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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Noticed it in this GIF it looks way better then what it was in Halo 4 it's not as good as the Reach/H2A Sniper but anything is better then the H4 Sniper

 

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Those hitmarkers suck

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Doesn't CE sniper have recoil/kickback? Remember 2-shotting elites on legendary by aiming at chest and shooting twice - the recoil would bring the second shot up to head-level - or was that just the elite model?

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This game looks like shit.

 

Whats the point of grabing anything other then a AR when it kills in 1-2 seconds at a really far range.

 

lololol at people compairing this abortion of a games kill time to H1 and H2.

 

I hope everyone has fun being hulk smashed by some dude hanging in the air for 3 seconds like hes the reincarnation of Michael Jordan but only to miss you by 10 feet and still take you down to no sheilds then AR you for the kill.

 

SnD style game type is not going to work in this game when there is no weapon depth and recharging shields

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This game looks like shit.

 

Whats the point of grabing anything other then a AR when it kills in 1-2 seconds at a really far range.

 

lololol at people compairing this abortion of a games kill time to H1 and H2.

 

I hope everyone has fun being hulk smashed by some dude hanging in the air for 3 seconds like hes the reincarnation of Michael Jordan but only to miss you by 10 feet and still take you down to no sheilds then AR you for the kill.

 

SnD style game type is not going to work in this game when there is no weapon depth and recharging shields

Wish I could give you limitless positive rep for this post. This game is going to blow unless it's completely redone from the ground up.

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Those hitmarkers suck

 

 

think they only appear when you get a kill, but feedback can easily have them removed

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That was me that said that, let me clarify:

 

I don't necessarily mean it increases the skill gap, I just mean in the case that someone DOES miss the jump it deepens the gameplay from there. If you make the jump, great you showed your skill, but if you miss your jump you have to make a choice between clambering and falling. Depending on the situation, there would be a right and wrong decision. I think to emphasize this, 343 will need to increase the time it takes to clamber. As it is, if you miss a jump in the midst of a firefight it gives the opponent a very small window of time to get a shot on you, maybe two, before you can respond. It needs to be an obvious disadvantage, which it doesn't seem to be there yet.

Ah ok I just found the original post you made.

 

I'm wondering what you actually mean when you say it deepens the gameplay? Do you mean it makes it more complex?

 

You say that if you miss it, you then have to make the choice between clambering and falling. If this extra choice is what you mean by depth, then we both use that word very differently. The choice to Clamber just gives the player the option to get out of jail free. If they mess the jump up without Clamber, then they are in the same position and have to start over. If they mess it up with Clamber, then they can just clamber themselves up with the press of a button. I really don't see how that extra choice adds any depth to gameplay.

 

More choice doesn't automatically = more depth. Armour Lock provided the player with more choices in a bad situation.

 

The clamber, while yes it might be a crutch for some players, will not remove skill jumping in the midst of a firefight, which is where it matters anyway. If you mess up a jump and have to clamber, that's half a second or more of not being able to shoot. If you make the skill jump, you're able to fire the entire time.

It will. If you are using jumps to get away from an encounter you're losing, then Clamber will simply make your job easier than if it wasn't present in the game. It actually does remove the necessity for skilled jumps.

 

Also, skill jumps in the middle of firefights are not the only use of skill jumps in Halo. There is the advantage of traversing the maps and getting to power positions and power weapons faster. I was just playing on Haven today and I tried the jump at the start of the game to get to the Railgun as fast as possible; I ended up failing the jump, while the other player successfully did the jump and got to the weapon before I did.

Had Clamber been involved, then we almost certainly both would have made it to the weapon at the same time. There wouldn't have been nearly as much room for error.

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This game looks like shit.

Whats the point of grabing anything other then a AR when it kills in 1-2 seconds at a really far range.

lololol at people compairing this abortion of a games kill time to H1 and H2.

I hope everyone has fun being hulk smashed by some dude hanging in the air for 3 seconds like hes the reincarnation of Michael Jordan but only to miss you by 10 feet and still take you down to no sheilds then AR you for the kill.

SnD style game type is not going to work in this game when there is no weapon depth and recharging shields

If only there was a beta so 343 could get feedback and alter each weapons damage if necessary.

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If only there was a beta so 343 could get feedback and alter each weapons damage if necessary.

 

I want to believe, but considering this is 343, and considering it's becoming obvious they are being pushed to get games done by a certain date, no matter what, I have almost zero confidence they will make any significant changes to the game.

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I want to believe, but considering this is 343, and considering it's becoming obvious they are being pushed to get games done by a certain date, no matter what, I have almost zero confidence they will make any significant changes to the game.

Depends what you define as significant changes.

 

Removing Sprint and clamber? Not gonna happen because all the maps would need to be heavily changed, as they were designed with those 2 mechanics in mind.

 

Altering kill times on weapons? Changing ground pound? Things like that are relatively simple, and can easily be changed.

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Depends what you define as significant changes.

 

Removing Sprint and clamber? Not gonna happen because all the maps would need to be heavily changed, as they were designed with those 2 mechanics in mind.

 

Altering kill times on weapons? Changing ground pound? Things like that are relatively simple, and can easily be changed.

 

Yeah sprint and clamber, key elements that would make the game not squat on a fat pole.

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A few initial thoughts from me.

 

-Ground Pound needs to have less range, in one of the videos posted here the guy flies really far and it seemed like he was awfully close to the ground. I also like the idea of making it have a charge like the Railgun, and making you no shields if you miss.

 

-Do something else to Sprint, along with what's been suggested here I wouldn't mind them making it so if you are shot while sprinting you stop and can't sprint again for x amount of time.

 

-Please no stabalizers.

 

-Smart Scope toggle, I might like it but I'm a bit scared of it lol.

 

-Little less range on the thruster, shouldn't be able to used out of sprint and vice versa.

 

-If clamber must stay make it so the timing has a small amount of frames where it can be activated and actually work.

 

Everythig else I need to play in the Beta because I'm really unsure at this point.

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If only there was a beta so 343 could get feedback and alter each weapons damage if necessary.

yaaaaa and having everyone in the halo community since Reach and Halo4 saying they dont want sprint and AA's in the game but somehow 343 still finds a way to ignore what people want.

 

You cant sugarcoat shit.

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Ah ok I just found the original post you made.

 

I'm wondering what you actually mean when you say it deepens the gameplay? Do you mean it makes it more complex?

 

You say that if you miss it, you then have to make the choice between clambering and falling. If this extra choice is what you mean by depth, then we both use that word very differently. The choice to Clamber just gives the player the option to get out of jail free. If they mess the jump up without Clamber, then they are in the same position and have to start over. If they mess it up with Clamber, then they can just clamber themselves up with the press of a button. I really don't see how that extra choice adds any depth to gameplay.

 

More choice doesn't automatically = more depth. Armour Lock provided the player with more choices in a bad situation.

 

It will. If you are using jumps to get away from an encounter you're losing, then Clamber will simply make your job easier than if it wasn't present in the game. It actually does remove the necessity for skilled jumps.

 

Also, skill jumps in the middle of firefights are not the only use of skill jumps in Halo. There is the advantage of traversing the maps and getting to power positions and power weapons faster. I was just playing on Haven today and I tried the jump at the start of the game to get to the Railgun as fast as possible; I ended up failing the jump, while the other player successfully did the jump and got to the weapon before I did.

Had Clamber been involved, then we almost certainly both would have made it to the weapon at the same time. There wouldn't have been nearly as much room for error.

Here's my example of what i mean: Onslaught from H3 as an example since its the first thing i thought of, You're top mid and are wanting to make the jump to the other person's flag. As you're jumping you start a 1v1 with a guy on their flag. You miss the skill jump, so you have to choose between clambering and taking a disadvantage in the 1v1 and hope for the out-BR, or falling to maybe get away. If you know the other 3 are dead, best choice is to stay alive most likely, while if the others are up, best course may be to go for the outplay. If you made the jump in the first place, you'd be on the flag without a disadvantage in the 1v1, which makes the skill jump the best case scenario.

 

So would you say that a nerf to how quickly you can clamber would fix your issues with it? If clamber makes your movement slower overall, it makes skill jumping the best option for map movement, and if its fairly slow, using it to get away is also probably not a good idea since they can shoot you while you're doing it.

 

So yes, it'll make clamber's primary use a crutch for the unskilled player, but as long as the skilled player has an advantage, whats wrong with removing the frustration of having to walk in a circle to try to make a jump a second time? 

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Anyone who thinks 343 will listen to the changes that need to be made clearly haven't been paying very much attention over the last 3 years.

 

Maybe halo 5 has potential but I wouldn't get your hopes up. In my eyes 343 is only known for their colossal failures.

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Anyone who thinks 343 will listen to the changes that need to be made clearly haven't been paying very much attention over the last 3 years.

 

Maybe halo 5 has potential but I wouldn't get your hopes up. In my eyes 343 is only known for their colossal failures.

Yeah, let's forget post- weapon tuning H4... useful post man. If the beta fails, it will be thanks to people like you who either don't participate, or who ask for things that are already too far-gone (no sprint, considering game/maps have been built around it, and last two games have had it). 

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Here's my example of what i mean: Onslaught from H3 as an example since its the first thing i thought of, You're top mid and are wanting to make the jump to the other person's flag. As you're jumping you start a 1v1 with a guy on their flag. You miss the skill jump, so you have to choose between clambering and taking a disadvantage in the 1v1 and hope for the out-BR, or falling to maybe get away. If you know the other 3 are dead, best choice is to stay alive most likely, while if the others are up, best course may be to go for the outplay. If you made the jump in the first place, you'd be on the flag without a disadvantage in the 1v1, which makes the skill jump the best case scenario.

Yeah that's what I thought you were suggesting.

 

What you're saying is that there's still a slight advantage to getting the skill-jump right in the first place vs missing it and having to use Clamber, due to the short period of vulnerability whilst in the Clamber animation.

What I'm saying is that even though there's a disadvantage to missing a jump and having to clamber, the disadvantage is still much lower than what you would experience in the same situation without Clamber. Without Clamber, when you miss the skill-jump, the disadvantage is much greater.

 

Your two options in a game with Clamber once you've missed a jump:

1. Go into the Clamber animation and be ever so slightly vulnerable due to the split second where you wont be able to shoot.

2. Fall down and maintain your ability to shoot.

 

Your two options in a game without Clamber once you've missed a jump:

1. Once you've fallen down, try the skill jump again and be even more vulnerable due to not having advanced anywhere at all, and due to the time you've wasted.

2. Fall down and maintain your ability to shoot.

 

This is exactly what I'm saying. A slight disadvantage to something doesn't mean it adds or maintains anything in the sense of skill of depth. If we were to apply the same argument to Armour Lock, we could say that Armour Lock has depth and maintains the skill-gap because if you do get into a bad situation and decide to use Armour Lock, you're disadvantaged because the enemy team can gather around you or perfectly time sticky nades so that you're doomed when you come out of it. But AL still makes the player less vulnerable than if they didn't have access to it - it still increases their chances of survival exponentially.

The point I'm making is that absolutely any ability can have a disadvantage, but that doesn't necessarily mean the disadvantage is as big as what you would experience in the absence of that ability.

 

So would you say that a nerf to how quickly you can clamber would fix your issues with it? If clamber makes your movement slower overall, it makes skill jumping the best option for map movement, and if its fairly slow, using it to get away is also probably not a good idea since they can shoot you while you're doing it.

If they were to make it so the window of opportunity was extremely low, so that you have to time it with extreme accuracy just to make the Clamber, then it would remedy the situation and I'd be glad for the change, but it wouldn't fix it. A lack of Clamber would bring about the best results. Unfortunately, I think we all know that Clamber is going to have a large window of opportunity. It's going to be so easy to do that it will almost be impossible to screw it up.

 

In order for it to be more risky than going for the skill jump a second time, the animation would have to be slower than 343 or any developer would be willing to make it. And even if it were made to be that slow, it is still reduced to the pressing of a button, whereas going for the skill jump again still requires more skill.

 

So yes, it'll make clamber's primary use a crutch for the unskilled player, but as long as the skilled player has an advantage, whats wrong with removing the frustration of having to walk in a circle to try to make a jump a second time?

Because the advantage that the more skilled player has is not as large when Clamber is present. The skill-gap closes, and a closing skill-gap is something I do not consider to be good for Halo.

 

Imagine a scenario where auto-aim is increased to 8 times the strength of what Halo 4 has: there would still be a skill-gap between skilled and unskilled players, but the gap will be much smaller. Let's say player A goes against player B in a game of BRs on Halo 4, and player A only ever manages to get about half the amount of kills that player B does. With auto-aim increased by 8 times, the gap will close, which means player A will find it much easier to get over half the kills player B gets.

A closing of the skill gap benefits unskilled players, and works as a disadvantage for skilled players, and the reason is because a lack of a skill-gap sucks everyone into the middle area where it's harder to perform much worse or much better than the average. I am very much against this in Halo because I think it absolutely needs to maintain a high skill-gap.

 

Also, you say that the removing of the frustration of performing poorly is a good thing, but I couldn't disagree more. That frustration/disappointment that a person experiences due to performing poorly is part of the process of competition. It's part of the process of trying to out-perform your opponent.

If we didn't experience any disappointment in screwing things up, then we'd have no motivation to learn and get good at the different skills that are involved in deciding who wins the game.

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Yeah that's what I thought you were suggesting.

 

What you're saying is that there's still a slight advantage to getting the skill-jump right in the first place vs missing it and having to use Clamber, due to the short period of vulnerability whilst in the Clamber animation.

What I'm saying is that even though there's a disadvantage to missing a jump and having to clamber, the disadvantage is still much lower than what you would experience in the same situation without Clamber. Without Clamber, when you miss the skill-jump, the disadvantage is much greater.

 

Your two options in a game with Clamber once you've missed a jump:

1. Go into the Clamber animation and be ever so slightly vulnerable due to the split second where you wont be able to shoot.

2. Fall down and maintain your ability to shoot.

 

Your two options in a game without Clamber once you've missed a jump:

1. Once you've fallen down, try the skill jump again and be even more vulnerable due to not having advanced anywhere at all, and due to the time you've wasted.

2. Fall down and maintain your ability to shoot.

 

This is exactly what I'm saying. A slight disadvantage to something doesn't mean it adds or maintains anything in the sense of skill of depth. If we were to apply the same argument to Armour Lock, we could say that Armour Lock has depth and maintains the skill-gap because if you do get into a bad situation and decide to use Armour Lock, you're disadvantaged because the enemy team can gather around you or perfectly time sticky nades so that you're doomed when you come out of it. But AL still makes the player less vulnerable than if they didn't have access to it - it still increases their chances of survival exponentially.

The point I'm making is that absolutely any ability can have a disadvantage, but that doesn't necessarily mean the disadvantage is as big as what you would experience in the absence of that ability.

 

If they were to make it so the window of opportunity was extremely low, so that you have to time it with extreme accuracy just to make the Clamber, then it would remedy the situation and I'd be glad for the change, but it wouldn't fix it. A lack of Clamber would bring about the best results. Unfortunately, I think we all know that Clamber is going to have a large window of opportunity. It's going to be so easy to do that it will almost be impossible to screw it up.

 

In order for it to be more risky than going for the skill jump a second time, the animation would have to be slower than 343 or any developer would be willing to make it. And even if it were made to be that slow, it is still reduced to the pressing of a button, whereas going for the skill jump again still requires more skill.

 

Because the advantage that the more skilled player has is not as large when Clamber is present. The skill-gap closes, and a closing skill-gap is something I do not consider to be good for Halo.

 

Imagine a scenario where auto-aim is increased to 8 times the strength of what Halo 4 has: there would still be a skill-gap between skilled and unskilled players, but the gap will be much smaller. Let's say player A goes against player B in a game of BRs on Halo 4, and player A only ever manages to get about half the amount of kills that player B does. With auto-aim increased by 8 times, the gap will close, which means player A will find it much easier to get over half the kills player B gets.

A closing of the skill gap benefits unskilled players, and works as a disadvantage for skilled players, and the reason is because a lack of a skill-gap sucks everyone into the middle area where it's harder to perform much worse or much better than the average. I am very much against this in Halo because I think it absolutely needs to maintain a high skill-gap.

 

Also, you say that the removing of the frustration of performing poorly is a good thing, but I couldn't disagree more. That frustration/disappointment that a person experiences due to performing poorly is part of the process of competition. It's part of the process of trying to out-perform your opponent.

If we didn't experience any disappointment in screwing things up, then we'd have no motivation to learn and get good at the different skills that are involved in deciding who wins the game.

The armor lock thing is a weird point, because in its design it's a broken mechanic, most of the time it delays the inevitable, but sometimes your team comes saves you.  no room for skill in either scenario.

 

I could easily see them making the clamber animation .5-.6 seconds or so, which is about 2 shots. If 2 free shots isn't a big advantage i don't know what is. A good player will know that In most situations its going to be better to just fall, but there is always the possibility you clamber and then out-BR the person you were fighting even through the 2 shot disadvantage, in which case you're deemed the most skilled player of that moment. or alternatively you know your teammate will be backing you up on that guy thats shooting you so you clamber and kill him due to good communication, which also means your awareness was better and you deserve the win. A low skill player will almost always instinctively clamber, meaning that they get punished. 

 

I guess my point of view is, if you're not doing crazy trick jumping videos, there isn't many jumps that I can think of in the game I can think of that are genuinely HARD, that also affect competitive gameplay. G1-G2 jump on guardian is the hardest one i can think of atm. Every other jump besides that one take maybe all of 5 minutes in a custom game to master. If it takes 5 minutes to master this skill jump, the skill gap is essentially artificial. Artificial skill gap is pointless, it just alienates new players rather than motivating them to become better, which is what we want for the scene. So say it's the beginning of a Pit slayer game, you're going for rockets. you miss the plat-green jump, and no one else went that way. you should automatically lose rockets because you messed up a jump that takes all of 2 minutes to master? If you clambered, you're still at a disadvantage for getting the rockets since they'll get there .5seconds before you, but they still have to FIGHT for it. I prefer the scenario where 5 minutes of effort gives you a small advantage, as opposed to removing the fight altogether if someone messed up a jump. 

 

Another point, clamber wouldn't even really assist you in a jump like that G1-G2 jump because it only pulls you up onto platforms, it doesn't grab onto the tiny ledges that make the truly hard skill based jumps possible. 

 

The auto aim example is also different than what we're talking about. Auto aim has been the biggest problem with the skill gap since H2, not sprint, not AAs. Aiming is one of the CORE mechanics that make the skill gap to begin with, skill jumping is not. 

 

The focus of halo's skill gaps is shooting, awareness, and communication. Skill jumping should be an advantage, I agree, but not such a huge one that clamber is inherently bad. As long as clamber gets the right kind of disadvantage during/after the beta I think it'll be fine. I'll be honest, clamber is probably my least favorite of the announced features, but it can be balanced.

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Yeah, let's forget post- weapon tuning H4... useful post man. If the beta fails, it will be thanks to people like you who either don't participate, or who ask for things that are already too far-gone (no sprint, considering game/maps have been built around it, and last two games have had it). 

 

I think you're missing his point. Many people here think Halo as a game is worthless with sprint. Even if they disable it for competitive play, it forges a huge divide between the casual and competitive world, and therefore greatly reduces the chance of new casuals getting into the competitive scene.

 

Therefore, your positivity for other elements of the game is redundant to us, because sprint.

 

I do respect your opinion though man. If you enjoy it then more power to you. However, a Halo game with sprint is just not for me.

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When I sit down to play the beta, I'm not just going to play it as they "intended" it to play, I'm going to try to break the game.  I think this is the kind of mindset we have to go into this.  If these new features break the game, exploit them like crazy and show what needs fixed because if everyone played games as they were intended to be played, no game would be broken.

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I think you're missing his point. Many people here think Halo as a game is worthless with sprint. Even if they disable it for competitive play, it forges a huge divide between the casual and competitive world, and therefore greatly reduces the chance of new casuals getting into the competitive scene.

 

Therefore, your positivity for other elements of the game is redundant to us, because sprint.

 

I do respect your opinion though man. If you enjoy it then more power to you. However, a Halo game with sprint is just not for me.

Which would you rather have? Game like Halo 4 w/ sprint and other bullshit, or game w/ sprint but better overall gameplay? That's what the beta's for. 

 

Edit: And what game are you going to play that doesn't have sprint? H5 is going to be a good game w/sprint. Not a true Halo game, but a good game nonetheless - would you consider COD or Titanfall better than H5?

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I think at this point I'm just done with all new Halo games. I'll play MCC because it's what I grew up enjoying but this game just looks so grim. I can't take another game with sprint in it.

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Which would you rather have? Game like Halo 4 w/ sprint and other bullshit, or game w/ sprint but better overall gameplay? That's what the beta's for. 

 

Edit: And what game are you going to play that doesn't have sprint? H5 is going to be a good game w/sprint. Not a true Halo game, but a good game nonetheless - would you consider COD or Titanfall better than H5?

 

The MCC, obviously...

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