Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

[ZipCity117]

I'm one of those people who doesn't generally play games. Halo is pretty much the only modern game I really love, so the whole "don't treat it like a Halo game" doesn't work for me. If I treat it that way, then the result is that it's just another game like 100s of others that wont interest me in the least.

Luckily I still think there are plenty of ways that Halo 5 will keep me entertained, even if I don't like the main multiplayer. I'll probably enjoy the campaign and I'll probably spend many hours making stuff in Forge and looking at the awesome stuff other people have made. And then there are the funsies gametypes in multiplayer like Grifball and Heavies that I loved in Halo 4 despite the terrible competitive side to the game.

 

Having said that, I do think Halo 5's main multiplayer could be fairly decent if a good amount of changes are made from people's feedback. I think there's a decent (not a great) Halo game in there somewhere, but it's hidden under a lot of fixes. I'm doubtful that much will be changed, but I'm going to give my feedback when the time comes and really hope for the best.

 

For me, this list of things is what could make the difference between Halo 5 multi being something I like and something I have no interest in:

 

- Have an option to use classic zoom instead of ADS  Most important thing to me, it's part of the whole Halo feel.

- Have an option to completely turn off spartan chatter If enough people mention this (even Greenskull did), I don't see why we won't have this.

- Bring back the social/ranked split (although hasn't Quinn said something which makes it seem like this wont happen?) From what has been said, all 4v4 "Arena" will be ranked. Who knows what BTB will be like...

- Take out Clamber (I know this wont happen) or at the very least make it so that the window of opportunity is so incredibly small that successfully going for the crouch jump is the most viable option to begin with. If clamber is as easy as pressing A with a large window of opportunity, then there will be no benefit to skilled jumping to begin with, and therefore no existing skill-gap in that sense          I understand your reasoning, yet don't see 343 taking this out

Look at about 2:32 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVwJoAoBe3I He didn't do a good job of timing that jump, but he made it anyway due to clamber. I despise this addition with a passion

- Make it so ground-pound is only effective on direct contact. I like the idea of ground-pound, but if it has an area of effectiveness outside of direct contact by launch, I probably wont feel very good about it  This is yet another thing that can be tweaked in Beta.

- Take out the annoying bleeps that happen every time you get shot. Why was this needed? It's awful         Toggles are our friend, if we ask enough during Beta we'll get them.

- Make it so that the hover ability isn't activated when simply pressing crouch in mid air. I don't mind the ability, but I don't want to be forced into it whenever I instinctively go for a Gandhi hop   This is already a thing, according to Unyshek

- Make it so that thruster has a longer recharge time. I like the idea of default thrusters, but only if they're used much less than they currently are from what we've seen of the beta. I think a recharge time that's double what it currently has would be much better. When it's used too often, it just clutters gameplay   With all the pros mentioning thruster as OP, I expect it to be tweaked

 

If it was announced that all these changes were being made, I would officially be hyped for Halo 5 multiplayer.

 

Most of these changes are possible if we pull together for the Beta, instead of leaving ragey anti-343 comments about taking out sprint. 

[Batchford]

One didn't have to play CE on a competitive level to see that it's by far the best.

 

or that's your opinion...

[Jazzii Man]

 

Yeah I really hope those changes are made. The weird thing about Halo 5 is that a lot of what I dislike about it comes down to it having a CoD skin. It's like Halo 4 was a CoD game with a Halo skin, and Halo 5 is (moslty) a Halo game with a CoD skin lol. Just need to get the options in there so it can still feel like a Halo game, and get the SAs balanced out, and we should have a decent game on our hands.

[ZipCity117]

Yeah I really hope those changes are made. The weird thing about Halo 5 is that a lot of what I dislike about it comes down to it having a CoD skin. It's like Halo 4 was a CoD game with a Halo skin, and Halo 5 is (moslty) a Halo game with a CoD skin lol. Just need to get the options in there so it can still feel like a Halo game, and get the SAs balanced out, and we should have a decent game on our hands.

You basically summed up what I've been trying to say about H5 for a week now... thank you!

[Infinity]

Snip

Stabilizers are activated in the air when you aim, not when you press crouch.

[ZipCity117]

or that's your opinion...

Only thing that's up for debate is CE vs H2 4v4s. Everything else has been debated to death, and we have come up with objective reasons (not opinions). You can't objectively argue that H3>H2 competitively (most people who say this say it out of nostalgia) when you have slower kill-times, a garbo sandbox, and an utility weapon that can't shoot straight. I'm not saying that H3 isn't a better game than H2 for most people (campaign, BTB, Forge) just that it's not as great as H2 competitively in 4v4. 

[Jazzii Man]

Stabilizers are activated in the air when you aim, not when you press crouch.

Ah ok lol. That's even worse.

[Three Six Xero]

an utility weapon that can't shoot straight

This is, ultimately, why I don't like Halo 3. I don't care what networking we have, shot-lead and spread don't mix on a precision weapon like that.

[Zandermannnn]

I'm curious about that. It looks like it's the best it'll get without being an absolutely useless controller input.

You can still sprint away to safety if ur shield drops halfway. If they are going to keep it in the game they should make it drain your shield to use it.

[Infinity]

Ah ok lol. That's even worse.

Agreed. Stabilizers aren't categorized as one of the seven abilities, so it is probably the one we should be pushing to remove. It's the only ability I hate.

[S0UL FLAME]

Just noticed something in this video.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsiA-Epg2I8

 

At the 30 second mark, the player sprints a little until he sees an enemy, and the animation to slow down and fire is almost instantaneous. Now, to me, that seems like a positive; when you get shot at while in sprint, you immediately have a chance to fight back instead of running away. This might give players the incentive to move forward when activating sprint.

 

Just something.

[Rolf]

Agreed. Stabilizers aren't categorized as one of the seven abilities, so it is probably the one we should be pushing to remove. It's the only ability I hate.

What do you guys mean with "stabilizer"? I think I missed something.

[Infinity]

What do you guys mean with "stabilizer"? I think I missed something.

 

Using the Smart Scope in the air will hold you in midair and you will float downwards.

[Vetoed]

You can still sprint away to safety if ur shield drops halfway. If they are going to keep it in the game they should make it drain your shield to use it.

Assuming you're sprinting away and your shields not recharging, and that sprint is limited in duration, how is it any useful to survive? At most it'll delay inevitable death since shield recharge won't be triggered until done sprinting. Which means you were unable to fight for a longer period of time, putting your team at a numerical disadvantage for longer, and ended up with a death anyway.

 

You're better off just taking the death to be able to come back into the fight with full shields sooner. As soon as you bother thinking it through, it's not beneficial at all. 

 

And that's the kind of stuff that makes the good stand out from the better. People who sprint a lot instead of fighting will be rewarded with less kills and assists overall. Doesn't matter how much you're able to stay alive if you're a worthless asset for your team. That's why nobody likes a stat whore.

 

It's hilarious because it's literally a mechanic catering to idiots who don't think their pushes through and it's so easy to punish. I agree with anyone who thinks it doesn't belong in the game but in the end, it serves no other purpose than cleaning up people, SAFE (as in no risk of engaging people) movement around the map and to make people who come from other FPSes feel comfortable (which'll result in them feeding kills anyway by trying to use it like it's CoD).

 

It's unfortunate that the maps are being scaled up for it, but that's the only way to keep the pushes predictable.

[Jazzii Man]

Using the Smart Scope in the air will hold you in midair and you will float downwards.

Yup, and it's a hand-holding thing as well. Shooting whilst falling will be easier for the person who is using the stabilizers, and shooting that person will be easier for the enemy as well because the person using stabilizers will barely be a moving target any more. Everyone talks about Halo 5's "enhanced" movement, but this is an example of the absolute opposite.

 

If they somehow make it to where it's activated in some other way, then I wont complain about it being there. But it's such a dumb ability.

[Infinity]

More Feedback:

 

• Ground Pound MUST have its charge up time increased. Currently, you can charge up to a certain point and release it early, or wait the full period of the charge up and have it release on its own. This is similar to the Railgun in Halo 4, but the difference is that this is not a power weapon. There needs to be more risk for such a great reward, and the short charge time will be abused. Activating the Ground Pound should require a full charge, allowing more room for error or more room for escape from the enemy.
• Stabilizers are awful, the completely change the dynamic of zooming and longitudinal combat. Think about all the jumping shots that have happened in the past. Vertical quickscopes are gone, and a personal-toggle would just add inconsistency. ADS may be a visual change to Zooming in Halo, but Stabilizers are not. They need to be removed.
• SMG NERF PLS. Scope should not reduce spread as much as it does. AR: Mid Range SMG: Close.
• DMR Scope needs to be cleaned up, it takes up a large portion of the screen. BR could be slightly changed too (rumor is the 'Red Dot' design is going to be changed).
• Empire having two Snipers is a tragedy. In the original Beta ViDoc we spotted an Overshield in the Turbine area and to be honest that would be a good addition to the map. The Tower vs. Outside/Turbine sightlines will no doubt create standoffs and this is in part because of the Snipers in each of those areas. Putting an Overshield or Camo in one of those locations will help Flag on that map and decrease standoffs for modes like TS.
• Reduce timers on weapons. 2 or 3 minute swords, 2 minute Snipers with less ammo
• Reduce Ammo in weapons (5 Strikes with Sword, 8 Shots with Sniper)
• I like the balance to Sprint, but we should take it further. Thrusting or using any of the Abilities should also reset the shield timer, and if your shields are in the process of recharging, Sprinting or Thrusting should reset the timer AND stop the shield recharge. In the games current state, you can let the timer go down, have your shields recharge, then begin Sprinting.
• Thruster distance reduced slightly
• Clamber needs to be nerfed. There currently is an option to 'Hold Jump to Clamber'. If we are going to introduce this mechanic, it has to be skill based, requiring a small window of opportunity where you must press jump AGAIN to make the skill jump. Holding A/Jump is just a crutch for weak players and takes away from the importance of skill jumps.
• Spartan Chatter needs to be reduced. The first thing is that this is one of the new features that would actually work on a toggle. There should be an option to not only toggle it off in your own settings, but maybe even toggle it off in the entire match, so competitive play can force team coordination. In addition, a lot of the dialogue is repetitive and pointless. Things that should stay: Enemy Callouts, Teamate Deaths – Things that Should Go: Enemy deaths, Teamate weapon pickups
• On the Topic of Weapon Callouts, I mentioned this earlier in this thread. I love the fact that there are talking timers, but if weapons are spawning at the same time (in the games current state) the radio chatter comes through non-stop. A Sniper that is 10 seconds away from spawn has 3 lines of dialogue attached to it, one for 10s, one for the spawn, and one if your teamate picks up the Sniper. Double all of this if two Snipers spawn at once (this also relates back to my point about having two different power weapons/powerups on Empire). If two weapons MUST spawn at once, their Radio chatter should be consolidated together. "Weapons in 10" "Power Weapons are Up". The weapon pickup callout is redundant, just leave the text on the bottom of the screen.

@@Deez @@Bravo for Feedback.

[Jazzii Man]

A couple of days ago I remember seeing someone say that Clamber is "balanced" and adds to the skill-gap due to making you vulnerable for the brief moment that you use it, and I was going to reply but I totally forgot. It's a misconception that needs to be addressed.

 

The idea that something increases the skill-gap, due to having a drawback for the player that uses it, is completely false. The same excuse was made for Armour Lock and Sprint.
We could say "Armour Lock increases the skill-gap because if you use it, you make yourself vulnerable when you come out of it because the enemy team could gather around you. Therefore it's balanced and increases the skill-gap". No. The reason this is not true is because the alternative to Armour Lock was harder than AL itself. The alternative was that you would have to use the skills of strafing and shooting to out-play your opponent in that same situation, whereas AL reduces the situation to the holding of a button, and actually makes your chances of surviving a lot higher.

We could say "Sprint increases the skill-gap because if you use it, you make yourself vulnerable because when you're running away, you can't shoot". No. The alternative to sprint is that when you run away, your enemy is able to chase and shoot at the same speed, meaning it's more likely that you'll be punished for not playing as well as that player.

 

We could say "Clamber increases the skill-gap because if you use it, you make yourself vulnerable for a second due to not being able to shoot". No. The alternative to Clamber is that you have missed the jump and are even more vulnerable due to being in the same position and having to start over. This process of starting the jump over makes it more time consuming and more of a challenge than the tiny duration of vulnerability that you get whilst in the Clamber animation.

 

Just because there is a risk of messing something up, does not mean it increases the skill-gap, and it certainly doesn't automatically "balance" anything.

[SciKho]

Everyone should watch this.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnG0kfSFJU&list=UUxvy4CMf4ZOPEBysOeXFCgg

Very well made video. I agree with everything he said.

[Vetoed]

I agree with Delementary about not thinking of this as a Halo game - smart scope is what does it for me - but as a brand new game. One that will be competitive and definitely better than 3, Reach or 4. 

 

There are many features from older Halo games returning as well, skillful features.

 

1) Low aim assist like CE. I don't know why more people aren't excited about it. One of the most frustrating things about watching H2A competitively is seeing perfect fours almost every time. 

2) Fast kill times in between CE & 2. We're not in H3 anymore Toto. 

3) Static weapon timers like CE, with in-game talking timer. Sure, four minutes is too long, but that can easily be tweaked in beta.

4) Pistol that's useful (hasn't been seen since CE).

5) Smaller sandbox, no loadouts, no clones. We can help with precise sandbox balancing in beta - but we won't have to balance for loadouts. 

6) Faster base movement speed.

7) Descope

 

Add in these new features:

1) Spectator mode

2) In-game tiered ranking

3) Balancing mechanic for Sprint. (Again, we can tweak this in beta). 

 

and you're pretty much guaranteed a good competitive game.

 

I think y'all are over exaggerating the impact of Spartan Abilities (aside from sprint, which I agree is fundamentally bad). Pros like Gandhi & Ryanoob have said they're not as big as we think they are. This is also pretty evident from watching released gameplay. 

 

Summed out perfectly how I feel about what we've seen so far.

 

There's also A LOT we can do with the beta as long as we're constructive and not trying to get everything scrapped for the sake of traditional Halo, which is not going to happen anyway. We seriously have to treat this as a different game and see how we can make it as skillful and competitive as possible. I'm sure there are a lot of great minds who can come up with interesting ideas to increase the skill gap without scrapping as much stuff as possible that's not Halo.

 

For instance, what if power weapon drop points were possible to interact with and had physics to them, not unlike CE power-ups? You could nade them from crazy angles and send the drop point somewhere else before the weapon spawns. Or if you could shoot while using thrusters to make it a more dynamic out shooting option? Or if thrusters weren't usable at all when shields are down, to prevent it from being an escape tool? 

 

I'm just throwing random stuff out there, but there's obviously room to improve the game by a significant amount and make it competitive. It's a fact that it won't be traditional Halo, but that isn't the only way to make something competitive. We can grab inspiration from things that worked well in the past and find ways to implement them in the game, while buffing / nerfing things that need it.

[overuled]

One thing I noticed from gameplay videos is that once you've stopped sprinting and your shields begin to recharge you can begin sprinting again and they'll continue charging.

 

I feel this should be changed. If your shields begin to recharge and you start sprinting I think they should stop at the point they've charged to.

 

Also I haven't seen or recalled seeing the effect using ground pound has on your shields.I'm wondering if a ground pound could weaken the user. Maybe even have it so if you miss your shields are dropped.

 

Just some late night thoughts.

[SciKho]

One thing I noticed from gameplay videos is that once you've stopped sprinting and your shields begin to recharge you can begin sprinting again and they'll continue charging.

 

I feel this should be changed. If your shields begin to recharge and you start sprinting I think they should stop at the point they've charged to.

 

Also I haven't seen or recalled seeing the effect using ground pound has on your shields.I'm wondering if a ground pound could weaken the user. Maybe even have it so if you miss your shields are dropped.

 

Just some late night thoughts.

I've also felt they needed to tweak it this way, but I wanted to reserve judgment until I play the Beta. 

[Khal Krazyeyes]

• Stabilizers are awful, the completely change the dynamic of zooming and longitudinal combat. Think about all the jumping shots that have happened in the past. Vertical quickscopes are gone, and a personal-toggle would just add inconsistency. ADS may be a visual change to Zooming in Halo, but Stabilizers are not. They need to be removed.

There have been multiple videos stating that stabilizers are able to be toggled on and off.

[Infinity]

There have been multiple videos stating that stabilizers are able to be toggled on and off.

 

As I stated in my post, toggles are not good. 

 

If it is a game-wide toggle (no one can use Stabilizers) then it alienates competitive settings from the Default game. This is obviously really bad for eSports.

 

If it is a personal toggle (you choose to use it or not) it adds randomness and inconsistency that makes it impossible to predict enemy movement – whether or not they will randomly start hovering mid combat.

[MrGreenWithAGun]

Assuming you're sprinting away and your shields not recharging, and that sprint is limited in duration, how is it any useful to survive? At most it'll delay inevitable death since shield recharge won't be triggered until done sprinting. Which means you were unable to fight for a longer period of time, putting your team at a numerical disadvantage for longer, and ended up with a death anyway.

 

You're better off just taking the death to be able to come back into the fight with full shields sooner. As soon as you bother thinking it through, it's not beneficial at all.

 

And that's the kind of stuff that makes the good stand out from the better. People who sprint a lot instead of fighting will be rewarded with less kills and assists overall. Doesn't matter how much you're able to stay alive if you're a worthless asset for your team. That's why nobody likes a stat whore.

 

It's hilarious because it's literally a mechanic catering to idiots who don't think their pushes through and it's so easy to punish. I agree with anyone who thinks it doesn't belong in the game but in the end, it serves no other purpose than cleaning up people, SAFE (as in no risk of engaging people) movement around the map and to make people who come from other FPSes feel comfortable (which'll result in them feeding kills anyway by trying to use it like it's CoD).

 

It's unfortunate that the maps are being scaled up for it, but that's the only way to keep the pushes predictable.

This.

 

It would be better to simply remove sprint if they are going to make it so useless and return to normal sized maps. Those casuals that rely upon it will begin to despise it. Nerfing sprint is counter productive because its only purpose now is to traverse large maps to help your teammates. But now if you cannot risk doing that the size of the map interferes with team play.

[LittleSoundDJ]

As I stated in my post, toggles are not good. 

 

If it is a game-wide toggle (no one can use Stabilizers) then it alienates competitive settings from the Default game. This is obviously really bad for eSports.

 

If it is a personal toggle (you choose to use it or not) it adds randomness and inconsistency that makes it impossible to predict enemy movement – whether or not they will randomly start hovering mid combat.

Yeah the only real solution if they want to keep it in is to redesign the way it is controlled. I'd rather be able to make a situational choice if I want to float or not.

 

Maybe if you hit the jump button again you initiate float? then you can hit it one more time to cancel the float and drop.