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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Clamber will just add new skill jumps imo. People will probably find a way to mix a crouch jump with a clamber and pull off a type of jump never before seen in Halo. 

 

there is no point in a "crouch" jump + clamber combination, because if you can reach the ledge, you will just clamber up regardless.  So I dont really see the logic in the combination of the two, or thinking that combining them is some sort of gameplay magnifier.

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At the end of the day, you can't really blame 343 for making Halo 5 as casual as possible. Times have changed, video games are mainstream. Casual FPSs that anyone can jump into and do things is where the big money is at.

 

It almost scares me that DLC will be free. What incentive does 343 have to keep people around? Id rather pay for 10/10 maps that are as good as possible because 343 wants them to sell than get 5/10 maps that are bad because 343 has no real incentive to go that extra mile.

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1. Toggle off Sprint

2. Increase Movement Speed

3. ????

4. Profit (?)

 

Correct, we can do whatever we want in custom games - however I am talking about the way 343 designed their game, and their intent to have it the way they want it (not how the 11% play it in a custom game) 

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there is no point in a "crouch" jump, because if you can reach the ledge, you will just clamber up.  So I dont really see the logic in the combination of the two.

Jumps like bottom gold to top gold though. 

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At the end of the day, you can't really blame 343 for making Halo 5 as casual as possible. Times have changed, video games are mainstream. Casual FPSs that anyone can jump into and do things is where the big money is at.

 

It almost scares me that DLC will be free. What incentive does 343 have to keep people around? Id rather pay for 10/10 maps that are as good as possible because 343 wants them to sell than get 5/10 maps that are bad because 343 has no real incentive to go that extra mile.

the game is probably the least casual since halo 3, although that's not a very good comparison.

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Correct, we can do whatever we want in custom games

 

True, but unless HCS settings are changed, our changes in customs won't matter much. I'm not going to depend on at least 7 of my friends being online at the same time to enjoy a 4v4. Proper settings need to be implemented in MM for me to enjoy the game.

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At the end of the day, you can't really blame 343 for making Halo 5 as casual as possible. Times have changed, video games are mainstream. Casual FPSs that anyone can jump into and do things is where the big money is at.

 

It almost scares me that DLC will be free. What incentive does 343 have to keep people around? Id rather pay for 10/10 maps that are as good as possible because 343 wants them to sell than get 5/10 maps that are bad because 343 has no real incentive to go that extra mile.

CS:GO and League pull in good numbers with money and competitive / casual value. Even if the mainstream trend to is to make your game accessible to the point of hand-holding, (coughbattlefrontcough) doing it is still stupid, especially for a game who's strength was it's depth and allowance of casual AND competitive play.

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Jumps like bottom gold to top gold though. 

 

Yes, a jump where you need clamber to achieve am I right?  Just another example how clamber will be used on its own to get to a certain position, rather than relying on a series of crouch jumps in succession where failure would result in a delay and death to team shooting.   Clamber is the safety net, and that is exactly how Kevin F has described it in the sprint episodes.

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It almost scares me that DLC will be free. What incentive does 343 have to keep people around? Id rather pay for 10/10 maps that are as good as possible because 343 wants them to sell than get 5/10 maps that are bad because 343 has no real incentive to go that extra mile.

What about that E-Sports money?

 

Paid DLC = Split Community

If Half or more of the playerbase can't get their hands on these new maps then the Maps will suffer being left out of the competitive scene 

Then What's the point?

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True, but unless HCS settings are changed, our changes in customs won't matter much. I'm not going to depend on at least 7 of my friends being online at the same time to enjoy a 4v4. Proper settings need to be implemented in MM for me to enjoy the game.

 

I guess we have to place our trust in 343 at that point to implement what the competitive community feels is best.  And with that being the circumstances, I do not have much hope in 343 already or their willingness to engage/implement what the competitive community desires.

 

I will concede however, that 343 will apply cosmetic changes to the settings that we may bring up i.e. weapon times, power ups, no radar, round times, etc.   But as far as gameplay mechanics themselves, not a chance (IMO)

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The issue with Clamber is it doesn't actually solve any gameplay issue that couldn't be fixed by simply adjusting the height, size, or distance between platforms/vantage points. 

 

In the old Halo games, if you couldn't make a jump, it's probably because:

  1. You weren't supposed to make that jump
  2. You weren't good enough to make that jump

Now I'm not saying that there's absolutely no room for skill jumps anymore, in fact with the other Spartan Abilities there's possibly room for some crazy stuff we've never seen in a Halo game (say you're about to do a Ground Pound, and on your way down you use Thruster to cancel out your collision with the ground and land on another platform or something. I don't know if that's actually possible but I'm just throwing ideas out there).

 

At this point with what we've seen though, Clamber doesn't demonstrably improve the game much, nor does it widen the skill gap. Its pretty meh.

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What about that E-Sports money?

 

Paid DLC = Split Community

If Half or more of the playerbase can't get their hands on these new maps then the Maps will suffer being left out of the competitive scene 

Then What's the point?

 

See below post...... 

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What about that E-Sports money?

 

Paid DLC = Split Community

If Half or more of the playerbase can't get their hands on these new maps then the Maps will suffer being left out of the competitive scene 

Then What's the point?

 

My assessment (and sure I could be completely wrong) but where Halo is right now, there is no profit in Halo "e-sports." The following isnt large enough, the viewership is not there, and Halo has seen a dramatic problem in retaining logevity in its player base. 

 

343 thinks they have the answer to all of this with H5

 

Regretfully, I think H5 is behind the eight ball, lacks innovation and has implemented mechanics that people either do not desire, are not "classic Halo" or have already had their time in previous popular FPS'rs. I have been a huge Halo fan since day 1, competed in HCE/H2, I want nothing more than to see Halo back on top -- But I just believe Halo is in the wrong hands with the wrong vision.

 

Despite all my 343 bashing and criticism - I would LOVE to be proven wrong, and I hope I am

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Yes, a jump where you need clamber to achieve am I right?  Just another example how clamber will be used on its own to get to a certain position, rather than relying on a series of crouch jumps in succession where failure would result in a delay and death to team shooting.   Clamber is the safety net, and that is exactly how Kevin F has described it in the sprint episodes.

What?  I am talking about the jump on Guardian. Bottom Gold to Top gold takes a crouch. Jumps like that will probably be in Halo 5. 

How does that jump require clamber lol

I am neither against or for clamber. I am just saying there will be skill jumps still 

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I understand what you mean and I don't disagree regarding skill jumps (and the following might be more directed at Josh than you) but the clamber animation is a weak trade off versus missing a jump entirely and having to either try it again or go all the way around.

 

A more extreme example would be having a respawn time of 2 seconds instead of 5. Like sure you still have to wait 2 seconds, but it's not that much compared to 5 and it allows people to get away with weaker calculations.

 

Now, if you had to press up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start to spawn a bit faster, then people could argue that it takes a bit more skill. But as it right now, all you gotta do is hold A. (Keep in mind this is just an extension of the previous extreme/ridiculous example).

 

The main point is, clamber should just require timing to be considered at least somewhat skillful.

I completely agree. Ever since the beta, I was pushing for timed clambers instead of the "hold A" junk. I also wanted sideways clambers or even backwards clambers, but that doesn't seem likely..

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Despite all my 343 bashing and criticism - I would LOVE to be proven wrong, and I hope I am

The Entire Post was well written

 

I would also add that Halo 5 is on a brand new Console that is only the second most populated and the gap is pretty wide it's not even funny 

I completely agree. Ever since the beta, I was pushing for timed clambers instead of the "hold A" junk. I also wanted sideways clambers or even backwards clambers, but that doesn't seem likely..

343 Plz

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The Entire Post was well written

 

I would also add that Halo 5 is on a brand new Console that is only the second most populated and the gap is pretty wide it's not even funny

what do the stats show? Cite please? I am really curious.

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Clamber is just their word for vaulting, which has been a tradition in shooters potentially before even Sprint. Shooters today are gradually introducing the double jump, while ladders, airlifts and jump-ups are being phased out because players want absolute control over their character.  Halo has been a game where bumping into something can send you flying due to the physics. This has both benefited gameplay (slide jumping) and detracted from it by making certain movements feel less responsive. 

 

Clamber ironically takes some of the control away, so why they chose to introduce a quick time event as the solution is unbeknownst to me. I assume they decided against the double jump to avoid redundancy with the thruster pack. Therefore, Clamber would be functioning more as an accessible extension to crouch jumping. I don't think it's replacing crouch jumping because they ultimately serve different purposes, so I'd disagree that Crouch Jumping as a skill is something that is being lost. 

 

It can be though if the designers start building Clamber exclusive jumps, which is where I draw the line. I absolutely do not want to see maps that cater to Clamber to the extent that simple jumps are just out of reach or there are curiously extending beams specifically for Clambering. Tacky level design is never good and 343 should not be forcing ability usage where it ought not to be. For example, I dislike the Clamber windows on Truth and Regret (moreso the former). Sure, the nature of the ability might balance the position's power, but I feel that the position is unnecessary and was only included because of Clamber (and Sprint encouraging the map to be flatter in the first place).

 

Clamber to me is something that should be used as an extension for a risky movement sequence. You run, jump, thrust and then grab onto a ledge. All of this exposes the player, introducing a risk vs reward where you are able to traverse somewhere you ought not to while retaining your combat abilities. It should be used where crouch jumping shouldn't be permitted.

 

Another example on Truth is the jump from the base to top mid. If you could make that jump and shoot at the same time, the middle of the map would be pointless (moreso than I feel it already is due to its open design). However, the fact that players who would make that approach would be risking themselves to do so gives the position more power without ruling out the move out entirely. 

 

I appreciate this kind of design despite it going against Halo's "predictability" because it prevents the game from becoming linear and one-dimensional. Enabling players to perform creatively and individually in the space is a good way to give the game lasting appeal, if not primarily on a superficial level. 

 

I'm ultimately indifferent to it. I really dislike the name and the way it's being used on maps currently, but I don't want to discredit its potential just yet. 

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What?  I am talking about the jump on Guardian. Bottom Gold to Top gold takes a crouch. Jumps like that will probably be in Halo 5. 

How does that jump require clamber lol

I am neither against or for clamber. I am just saying there will be skill jumps still 

 

we were talking about two different jumps, disregard.  However, I dont think there are jumps in H5 where you can "only" crouch jump to - but hey, if I am wrong and there are crouch jump only spots - cool?  All in all, I would rather have skill based crouch jumps than me sprinting, see a ledge, jump/thrust and then clambering up.  343 will argue it is more "fluid" movement - I argue its not needed and just is a ploy to hopefully win over a COD kid or two who will pick up the controller and feel just a little bit like they are playing what they are used to.

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Also, I think the "skill" required to crouch jump is being overstated. It hasn't been difficult since the original game where jumps had to be lead. I don't think players should be rewarded for "missing" jumps either so I think Clamber could have its hitbox tweaked to make it less forgiving. But once we start getting into timing based commands and konami code it just looks silly. 

 

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Also, I think the "skill" required to crouch jump is being overstated. It hasn't been difficult since the original game where jumps had to be lead. I don't think players should be rewarded for "missing" jumps either so I think Clamber could have its hitbox tweaked to make it less forgiving. But once we start getting into timing based commands and konami code it just looks silly. 

It's not the most skillful thing on the planet to crouch jump, but it's more about the input and timing required versus pushing a simple button without even needing to be above the ledge of the platform. That's taking out control and precision just for hand-holding.

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I agree with this. It should be more context dependent with a narrow margin for error. If you're completely miss a ledge, well you dun fucked up. 

 

Most Games where 343 copied this from dont do this

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It's not the most skillful thing on the planet to crouch jump, but it's more about the input and timing required versus pushing a simple button without even needing to be above the ledge of the platform. That's taking out control and precision just for hand-holding.

 

 

I agree with this. It should be more context dependent with a narrow margin for error. If you're completely miss a ledge, well you dun fucked up. 

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I agree with this. It should be more context dependent with a narrow margin for error. If you're completely miss a ledge, well you dun fucked up. 

 

Even if it were more contextual and had a narrower window, it doesn't change the core problem of the feature: it rewards you for not making a jump and is easier than a crouch jump, and the ability to not shoot for one second is so negligible it will have no effect on gameplay.

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