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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Has the Pro Team ever commented on H5 design decisions? Are they allowed to publicly? I would love to hear what they have to say about static/dynamic spawns, spawn times, tiered weapons, etc. They'll be the ones who have likely tried different iterations of this stuff.

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Having 3 different spawn systems is the epitome of unnecessary complexity. I can't think of anything this system does significantly better than just putting everything on static timers and being done with it.

Additonal complexity is only justified if it adds something substantial to the game.

Instead, putting tier 2 weapons on dynamics timers is a  terrible idea. There is no chance in hell I'm going to be despawning my sword until I need a need a new one, in which case im just going to find the closest weapon spawn and pick up a needler or something and get a FULL sword uncontested where only I know when its up,immediately, and only the time it takes to walk till the spawn, which will most likely be under 5-10 seconds.

H2 and H2A prove that dynamic spawning creates nothing but snowballing advantages, with zero positives to gameplay that static spawns don't do better.

The fact that dynamic powerup spawning works in other games is irrelevant, because those games aren't halo, and we already know it doesn't work in Halo.

 

Luckily there are static spawns for the most important (tier 3) power weapons, so you probably won't be seeing this making a massive difference. But in a game where matches often end up 50-49 I'd be disgruntled if I lost the game just because of a bad dev choice.

 

What is troubling to me is that they added complexity to the game with no upsides and some downsides, instead of just sticking with an intuitive "static spawns for everything system" that anyone can understand.

Moreover, they had to spend time designing this system that they could have used for useful things, so it's no wonder we don't get things like splitscreen.

 

In my mind, dynamic spawns are useful for semi-power weapons that have a lot of ammo; sword, shotgun, needler, plasma pistol, scattershot, etc. Notice that these are all individual weapons that allow for sneaky pushes, like on Lockdown. If you have these on static timers, you can get teams just saving their ammo, and then having two swords like what happened on Truth. 

 

I'd rather have the knowledge snowball of dynamic timers, than the multiple weapons, too much ammo snowball problem. 

 

Don't know why Hydra & Railgun are in Tier 2 - those should be in Tier 3.

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Maybe BTB maps can have slower snipers and faster anti-vehicle weapons, but in Arena I don't see the point of different timers.

Yes, that is one good idea, but the other maps will probably, or so I hope play differently as well. HOPEFULLY we will need (and it would be a good idea) to have different weapon spawns on different maps. Maps and the flow of the maps are different, thus we need different timers to affect each map positively.  

 

That doesn't mean that we can't have the same times on some maps, but we don't want stupid rules to restrict potentially good maps that may play better with a shorter or quicker weapon timer because of n00bs.

 

Here are the times for some Halo 3 maps:

 

Blackout

Sniper Rifle- 180s (Arguably the best weapon on this map, and the reason for it's long times).

 

Foundry

Sniper Rifles- 90s (The weapons here have quick times, or else you would be able to camp back in bubble shield rooms).

Rocket Launcher- 90s

 

Ghost Town

Sniper Rifle- 120s  (The Sniper here has a quick spawn because it doesn't impact the match as much on this particular map. Rockets and shotguns etc are much better).

 

Guardian

Sniper Rifle- 180s (Definitely the best weapon on this map, and the reason for it's long times).

 

Narrows

Rocket Launcher- 180s (The Power Positions allows for these weapons to not spawn as often, because the map is made as is).

Sniper Rifles -150s

 

Even Halo 2 (I think) and CE had differences in weapon spawns, and probably Reach as well.

 

In my opinion it is a design flaw to not allow themselves to have different times for each map. It is highly dependant on the flow of each map, I am grossing just thinking about having the same times on every map.

 

Call it freedom to make the map play as good as possible.

 

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Again, what was wrong with consistent times in CE for sniper/rockets ? Aside from BTB and novelty maps (Chiron, Boarding Action), Sniper was always on :30 , and Rockets was on 2:00 (except for the fuck up on Derelict). 

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Yes, that is one good idea, but the other maps will probably, or so I hope play differently as well. HOPEFULLY we will need (and it would be a good idea) to have different weapon spawns on different maps. Maps and the flow of the maps are different, thus we need different timers to affect each map positively.  

 

That doesn't mean that we can't have the same times on some maps, but we don't want stupid rules to restrict maps that may play better with a shorter or quicker weapon timer.

 

Here are the times for some Halo 3 maps:

Blackout

Sniper Rifle- 180s

 

Foundry

Sniper Rifles- 90s

Rocket Launcher- 90s

 

Ghost Town

Sniper Rifle- 120s

 

Guardian

Sniper Rifle- 180s

 

Narrows

Rocket Launcher- 180s

Sniper Rifles -150s

 

In CE there are several differences as well.

 

 

Uh... not sure if you've played CE much, but majority of things like Rockets (2 mins) and Sniper (30 sec) are the same across majority of the comp maps.

 

Obviously there are instances like top powerup on HeH (3 minutes) and Dere Rocks (30 sec), but these are nothing compared to H3's timers.

 

If you want a good competitive game, keep things as consistent as possible.

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I don't really buy the argument that having different timers for weapons depending on the map is a problem for new players/viewers. For viewers, that's what the casters are there for (or we could throw up a graphic with info like "Sniper - every 2 minutes" during the pre-game flyovers, which I love), and for players, honestly, Halo is not a difficult game to learn. Making it easier for people isn't going to be what brings in new fans, making it more fun and exciting is. To me, that means tuning each map to be as well-balanced and exciting as possible, not trying to make them all as same-y as possible in the name of simplicity.

It's not that it's detrimental in any way to gameplay, viewership or the player base, more so that it's a clumsy annoyance. Consistency is not the same as simplicity, if anything the consistency of a single system encourages said system to be more complex as it is all the player has to engage with.

 

I don't want a vague system where balance is open ended because all that does is lead to endless tail chasing within the community (anyone who has been a part of the community settings discussion over the years will understand) and surface level tailored gameplay - "we did X because we want this to be played like Y".

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The 3 different timing systems is exactly what h5 is, a cluster fuck of different types of games. It doesn't know what it wants to be. I can't believe the dynamic system with delaying the timer until the weapon gets dropped system is even considered. That's such a horrible system

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Uh... not sure if you've played CE much, but majority of things like Rockets (2 mins) and Sniper (30 sec) are the same across majority of the comp maps.

 

Obviously there are instances like top powerup on HeH (3 minutes) and Dere Rocks (30 sec), but these are nothing compared to H3's timers.

 

If you want a good competitive game, keep things as consistent as possible.

I think you should go back and read my edited post, before I answer here.

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@@Sal1ent @@Deez are there any plans to re-design Halo Waypoint and add a more detalied service record stats? Right now even the design is terrible and not functional at all. At least some API for third parties like Halo Tracker?

 

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They are probably going to get updated when Halo 5 launches don't you think?

 

Didn't they update the website when the beta launched?

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They are probably going to get updated when Halo 5 launches don't you think?

 

Didn't they update the website when the beta launched?

The thing is, we've been complaining about HaloWaypoint's stat tracking since 343 took over Reach. Then they said they were going to improve it for Halo 4 (which was outsourced), then they said they were going to improve it for MCC, and now they're probably going to say that they'll improve it for Halo 5 and we'll be left disappointed again. They put little effort into Waypoint's stat tracking. Until they show us solid evidence that we'll get a worthwhile stat page, I wouldn't put much trust into what they say.

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Dynamic timers ftw. And Reachs stat tracking was awesome. It showed exactly how many of each medal you got. I hope halo 5 has good tracking, it just enhances the feel of being a UNSC soldier etc.

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In my opinion it is a design flaw to not allow themselves to have different times for each map. It is highly dependant on map, I am grossing just thinking about having the same times on every map.

 

 

Or the design flaw is putting the same weapon on all maps.  If a sniper on a map is so powerful that it actually requires a 180s spawn timer, then perhaps it doesn't belong on that map.

 

Super-short spawn timers (< 1 min) means that the "power" weapon is not much better than a loadout weapon on that map . . . so why have it?  Super-long spawn timers (> 2 min) means that the weapon is overpowered on the map . . . so why have it?

 

CE didn't have an overabundance of weapons to choose from, so the option to swap one power weapon with another was not always available.  Thus, it wasn't done.  With the current buffet of weapons, doing this is more than practical.

 

3 min timers is too long.  In a 4v4 game, that means only 3 sniper spawns for typical match lengths (6 - 9 min).  If it really needs to be that long, consider a different weapon.  If a different weapon doesn't work, lower the ammo to a single spare clip so that a 2-min spawn time is practical.

 

Failing to provide sufficient weapons spawns is a surefire way to increase the frequency of betrayals and decrease the ability of most players to practice with a weapon in a real, live game.

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In my mind, dynamic spawns are useful for semi-power weapons that have a lot of ammo; sword, shotgun, needler, plasma pistol, scattershot, etc. Notice that these are all individual weapons that allow for sneaky pushes, like on Lockdown. If you have these on static timers, you can get teams just saving their ammo, and then having two swords like what happened on Truth. 

 

I'd rather have the knowledge snowball of dynamic timers, than the multiple weapons, too much ammo snowball problem. 

 

Don't know why Hydra & Railgun are in Tier 2 - those should be in Tier 3.

 

Why don't we just look at what actually happens though.I've seen so many pros get killing frenzy+ kills just camping the shit out of sniper tower with the sword and sniper in pro scrims. Now compare that to how much harder it is to get a long spree on any other map. Hint: It's not because lockdown allows for "sneaky pushes". Truth be told, mentioning sneaky pushes and lockdown in the same sentence is asinine. Its  in the damn name for christ's sake. Slow gameplay is a direct result from the way static timers work in the Halo sandbox.

 

Atleast the H2A sword still has a downtime of 25 seconds. In H5 you can chain swords and shotguns with ZERO downtime. Now consider the fact there will probably be a lockout-esque map in matchmaking, and be prepared for nightmareish gameplay.

Furthermore, I have no idea what you mean by "teams just save their ammo" being a negative. This is, in fact, the beauty of static spawns. The fact that you aren't at the mercy of some guy camping the shit out of his power weapons so you can't grab any is exactly the point why static spawn are good.

If there are too many weapons on the map just reduce the ammo count instead of finding akward solutions to the problem.

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The thing is, we've been complaining about HaloWaypoint's stat tracking since 343 took over Reach. Then they said they were going to improve it for Halo 4 (which was outsourced), then they said they were going to improve it for MCC, and now they're probably going to say that they'll improve it for Halo 5 and we'll be left disappointed again. They put little effort into Waypoint's stat tracking. Until they show us solid evidence that we'll get a worthwhile stat page, I wouldn't put much trust into what they say.

Yes, the stat tracking sucks. What I think is worse is that they aren't letting other companies pull stats either.

 

I have kinda learned to live with it because there hasn't been a working ranking system either (And that's the only reason I use it). To look at old games against good players.  

 

I am holding my thumbs up that they will get it working till around Halo 5' times.

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Or the design flaw is putting the same weapon on all maps.  If a sniper on a map is so powerful that it actually requires a 180s spawn timer, then perhaps it doesn't belong on that map.

 

Super-short spawn timers (< 1 min) means that the "power" weapon is not much better than a loadout weapon on that map . . . so why have it?  Super-long spawn timers (> 2 min) means that the weapon is overpowered on the map . . . so why have it?

 

CE didn't have an overabundance of weapons to choose from, so the option to swap one power weapon with another was not always available.  Thus, it wasn't done.  With the current buffet of weapons, doing this is more than practical.

 

3 min timers is too long.  In a 4v4 game, that means only 3 sniper spawns for typical match lengths (6 - 9 min).  If it really needs to be that long, consider a different weapon.  If a different weapon doesn't work, lower the ammo to a single spare clip so that a 2-min spawn time is practical.

 

Failing to provide sufficient weapons spawns is a surefire way to increase the frequency of betrayals and decrease the ability of most players to practice with a weapon in a real, live game.

Because of movement. That's one of the biggest reasons for why you have power weapons from the start of. You have Power Weapons on the map to promote map movement. A map that is stale like Foundry needs quicker times, than for example a map like Heretic where you would want to move anyway.

 

Every map isn't the same and should therefore not have the same times. It's just logical.

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Because of movement. That's one of the biggest reasons for why you have power weapons from the start of. You have Power Weapons on the map to promote map movement. A map that is stale like Foundry needs quicker times, than for example a map like Heretic where you would want to move anyway.

 

Every map isn't the same and should therefore not have the same times. It's just logical.

 

There is logic, but I think you're missing it.  A map that would normally play statically requires fast spawn times.  Agreed.  But a map that already plays dynamically doesn't then need slower spawn times simply because flow is already provided by the map geometry; all it means is that the power weapons are less necessary to drive movement than on the slower maps.

 

Unless you're proposing to use long spawn times to slow down the map, there is no argument to extend spawn times.

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Why don't we just look at what actually happens though.I've seen so many pros get killing frenzy+ kills just camping the shit out of sniper tower with the sword and sniper in pro scrims. Now compare that to how much harder it is to get a long spree on any other map. Hint: It's not because lockdown allows for "sneaky pushes". Truth be told, mentioning sneaky pushes and lockdown in the same sentence is asinine. Its  in the damn name for christ's sake. Slow gameplay is a direct result from the way static timers work in the Halo sandbox.

 

Atleast the H2A sword still has a downtime of 25 seconds. In H5 you can chain swords and shotguns with ZERO downtime. Now consider the fact there will probably be a lockout-esque map in matchmaking, and be prepared for nightmareish gameplay.

Furthermore, I have no idea what you mean by "teams just save their ammo" being a negative. This is, in fact, the beauty of static spawns. The fact that you aren't at the mercy of some guy camping the shit out of his power weapons so you can't grab any is exactly the point why static spawn are good.

If there are too many weapons on the map just reduce the ammo count instead of finding akward solutions to the problem.

 

I don't see your point.  With static spawns, there can be multiple swords, shotguns, etc., on the map at the same time.  How is that nonzero downtime?  With the dynamic spawns, there is only one weapon of that type on the map at any given time.

 

I also fail to see how it makes camping any worse.  You can camp static spawn locations just as easily as dynamic ones.  And the real power weapons are static anyway, so someone camping a dynamic spawning weapon has no effect on your ability to get the real power weapon . . . except that you have one less obstacle on the other team to overcome when grabbing rockets.

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There is logic, but I think you're missing it.  A map that would normally play statically requires faster spawn times.  Agreed.  But a map that already plays dynamically doesn't then need slower spawn times because the movement is already provided by the geometry.

 

Unless you're proposing to use long spawn times to slow down the map, there is no argument to extend spawn times.

 

It depends entirely on the map. There has to be a balance between it all.

 

* Sometimes you want players to move out of their power positions.

* Sometimes you want a few weapons that can change the battle completely.

* Sometimes a map doesn't play well with constant push of Power Weapons. Assembly sucks with all and everything.

* You don't want to give players that have more, more. Especially on maps that already promote map weapon.

 

 

Narrows or for example Vessel would be a hell with quicker Power Weapons times. How in the hell would a team that is down be able to get back up on that map? More Power Weapons doesn't mean more fun or better gameplay. If a map plays good without a constant rush of power weapons, that is all we need. A good map.

 

If I go into very specifics on each maps like the Developers over at 343 do with their maps now I could probably find very specifics reasons for why I want a slow placed Power Weapon exactly right there.

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Why don't we just look at what actually happens though.I've seen so many pros get killing frenzy+ kills just camping the shit out of sniper tower with the sword and sniper in pro scrims. Now compare that to how much harder it is to get a long spree on any other map. Hint: It's not because lockdown allows for "sneaky pushes". Truth be told, mentioning sneaky pushes and lockdown in the same sentence is asinine. Its  in the damn name for christ's sake. Slow gameplay is a direct result from the way static timers work in the Halo sandbox.

 

Atleast the H2A sword still has a downtime of 25 seconds. In H5 you can chain swords and shotguns with ZERO downtime. Now consider the fact there will probably be a lockout-esque map in matchmaking, and be prepared for nightmareish gameplay.

Furthermore, I have no idea what you mean by "teams just save their ammo" being a negative. This is, in fact, the beauty of static spawns. The fact that you aren't at the mercy of some guy camping the shit out of his power weapons so you can't grab any is exactly the point why static spawn are good.

If there are too many weapons on the map just reduce the ammo count instead of finding akward solutions to the problem.

 

I've seen plenty of shotgun pushes from snipe tower to take over library or BR tower... Snakebite's was a beauty. 

 

Static timers work with rockets and other low ammo, high powered weapons, because rarely do you see a player with ammo from two different spawns.

 

OTOH, weapons with lots of ammo (sword) necessitate dynamic timers. Just look at Midship vs Truth...

 

I'm not sure whether the 1-second respawn after being dropped is good, maybe 10-30 seconds is better.

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I don't see your point.  With static spawns, there can be multiple swords, shotguns, etc., on the map at the same time.  How is that nonzero downtime?  With the dynamic spawns, there is only one weapon of that type on the map at any given time.

 

I also fail to see how it makes camping any worse.  You can camp static spawn locations just as easily as dynamic ones.  And the real power weapons are static anyway, so someone camping a dynamic spawning weapon has no effect on your ability to get the real power weapon . . . except that you have one less obstacle on the other team to overcome when grabbing rockets.

 

I provided you the exact reason why it makes camping worse. It is the because there is only one weapon on the map and you are in control of when it spawns. How is this hard to understand? I even provided you the very valid Lockout example.

Disregarding what past Halos tell us about Halo 5 is just waiting to be proven wrong once the game comes out and it isn't all theorycrafting anymore.

 

I've seen plenty of shotgun pushes from snipe tower to take over library or BR tower... Snakebite's was a beauty. 

 

Static timers work with rockets and other low ammo, high powered weapons, because rarely do you see a player with ammo from two different spawns.

 

OTOH, weapons with lots of ammo (sword) necessitate dynamic timers. Just look at Midship vs Truth...

 

I'm not sure whether the 1-second respawn after being dropped is good, maybe 10-30 seconds is better.

 

Just because it can happen doesn't mean its a viable strategy.

There is no reason to have weapons with lots of ammo like the sword or the H2A shotgun in the first place. You should have just read my post. Why does a flaw in the ammo count have to be fixed with the shitty band-aid of dynamic spawning when you can just reduce the ammo count.

 

 

- Alas, I know this will only go in circles, so I'm going to see myself out.

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It depends entirely on the map. There has to be a balance between it all.

 

* Sometimes you want players to move out of their power positions.

* Sometimes you want a few weapons that can change the battle completely.

* Sometimes a map doesn't play well with constant push of Power Weapons.

* You don't want to give players that have more, more. Especially on maps that already promote map weapon.

 

Narrows or for example Vessel would be a hell with quicker Power Weapons times. How in the hell would a team that is down be able to get back up on that map?

 

We need a balance that is exact on each map.

 

I am not familiar with how Vessel plays, so no comment there.  Narrows would benefit from not having rockets + 2 snipes + 2 overshields + brute shots + bubble + power drain.  You can't say that Narrows needs slow spawn times while simultaneously saying that it needs all that crap packed into it.  Were there not so many upgrades available, spawn times for what was left could be made faster.

 

In my opinion, this was a consistent problem in H3.  The sheer amount of crap on the maps required long spawn times.  That problem goes away if you limit the amount of crap on the map.

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I am not familiar with how Vessel plays, so no comment there.  Narrows would benefit from not having rockets + 2 snipes + 2 overshields + brute shots + bubble + power drain.  You can't say that Narrows needs slow spawn times while simultaneously saying that it needs all that crap packed into it.  Were there not so many upgrades available, spawn times for what was left could be made faster.

 

In my opinion, this was a consistent problem in H3.  The sheer amount of crap on the maps required long spawn times.  That problem goes away if you limit the amount of crap on the map.

That is the difference between CE and H3. H3 has many weapons than CE. CE has 2 viable ones.

 

The point is not to have quick spawn times, but a nice flow of map movement and fun gameplay. Narrows does this fine.

 

Halo 5 has many more weapons than H: CE and 343 wants to show them all of.

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That is the difference between CE and H3. H3 has many weapons than CE. CE has 2 viable ones.

 

The point is not to have quick spawn times, but a nice flow of map movement and fun gameplay. Narrows does this fine.

 

Halo 5 has many more weapons than H: CE and 343 wants to show them all of.

 

H1 having only 2 viable weapons? I'm sorry but what???

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