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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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@@Sal1ent @@Deez Is there going to be a Flood Warzone map with all the AI as flood?

 

Because if not, it sounds really awesome.

 

I think I've mentioned this a hundred times so far, and it just keeps sounding better.

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I'm expecting an ass ton of weapons, not counting the alternate variants like the recon ar or sentinel br.

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Can anyone explain the benefits of 60s Sniper / 120s Rockets in an actual game situation? It just seems to me that you're creating the same two scenarios back to back:

 

1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, 13:00, 14:00
         2:00,          4:00,          6:00,          8:00,          10:00,            12:00,            14:00

 

Remembering that the power weapons are static, there is less chance for interplay between the items that would naturally form in a dynamic environment e.g. one running off another and the strategic value that creates. Again just floating it out there, has anyone actually justified the dramatic increase in the number of weapon spawns, nearly doubling (1 rocket drop being the difference) the number of PW's from modern competitive Halo:

  • 1min - 14 active spawns (15inc spawn)
  • 1.5min - 9 active spawns (10inc spawn)
  • 2min - 7 active spawns (8inc spawn)
  • 2.5min - 5 active spawns (6inc spawn)
  • 3min - 4 active spawns (5inc spawn)

I don't really want to know that Halo3 was too slow, I want to know why having 14 snipers / 28 in sym gametypes is a good idea. To me, Snipers are a much more lethal and pace draining item than Camo/OS which expires and has the potential to do no damage and yet people are proposing 90s PU's.

 

Finally, it seems as though people are completely ignoring the design decisions of the developer. What we know so far is the tiered nature of weapons and that they're aiming to keep things consistent across the Arena experience (as they should);

 

Current plan is to maintain a consistent weapon placement, spawn times, and ammo count across all of Arena.  With some exceptions like SWAT for example.

 

How do these proposed times work in objective? How do they work with radar? How do they work with lower skilled groups of players? This isn't Halo theory anymore where you can say "oh well I wouldn't have my utility weapons work this way" etc, we're literally talking about a system that's going to fit in a specific game - keep it grounded as such.

 

I'm not ruling anything out at the moment but it seems to me that people are just banging the drum of support rather than explaining in detail how they think things will work and why.

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Now I know this is a completely different game, but one of the things I loved about Gears 1 was how fast power weapons would spawn on the map. It always gave a reason for players to move and force skirmishes around those areas instead of just corner camping most the game like gears 3.

 

I used to feel like a god in gears 3 because of how easy it was to control weapons since they wouldn't respawn til you used all the ammo, but gears 1 had it right with power weapons.

 

I feel halo can benefit the same way with faster timings. Truth be told I think the BR meta/push when weapons up has been awful. The only time I get excited watching competitive play is seeing a weapon in one of the pros hands. When nothing is up it just feels like mindless aggression just trading back and forth until the weapons finally spawn. Halo desperately needs faster weapon times IMO.

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have 1.2 sec killtimes in Halo 5 for the utility rifles.

 

nerf snip so it isn't so easy to use

 

have 1 min Snip, 2 min Rocket, 2 camo/OS

 

problem solved.

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Hcs would do better number wise if mlg was attached. If they could somehow work something out to get more lan events than 3 a season that would good too. Maybe have like the smaller 343 pushed amateur events worth less points be like combines and then mlg and 343 pitch in together for the big main events. Well not lam but you guys know what I mean.

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I'm not ruling anything out at the moment but it seems to me that people are just banging the drum of support rather than explaining in detail how they think things will work and why.

 

Because we can't. If I had played a certain map recently I could have said I want 2 minute timer on that map, and a 3 minute timer for that map, because of reasons.

 

We can't come up with a reason for why a certain time may be better than another time, because we don't know shit. Now everybody is just saying they want something because they have had it in a game they enjoy.

 

What I don't think 343 should do:

 

* Don't let the timers for each weapon be the same on every map.

* Don't restrict the Power Weapons to 1-4 for every map.

 

If a map needs faster weapon spawns so be it, and if it doesn't, so be it as well. If a map needs 5 power Weapons, and another one only needs one, don't let your own weird rules restrict you. Add whatever settings to whatever map that Is needed to make it play the best.  

 

The only thing you are doing is holding back your maps by trying to keep it simple and easy. Most people will never learn them, and those who were going to, will learn them anyway.

 

You just add the timers to spectator mode so beginners can easily follow while watching that way.

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I think I've mentioned this a hundred times so far, and it just keeps sounding better.

 

343, for Halo 6.

 

A zombie mode with forge, build your base and then let the zombies attack.

 

A slayer mode with forge (No monitor). You forge your base, and then attack the enemy which in turn makes their own base.

 

A game that does that ^

 

Scrap warzone, it doesn't interest me in the least bit compared to these two I just said.

 

@Sal1ent @Deez

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Because we can't. If I had played a certain map recently I could have said I want 2 minute timer on that map, and a 3 minute timer for that map, because of reasons.

 

We can't come up with a reason for why a certain time may be better than another time, because we don't know shit. Now everybody is just saying they want something because they have had it in a game they enjoy.

When we're talking about a general design philosophy of course you can. Argue saturation, the benefits / drawbacks of spawns overlapping, diversity over quantity, ease of use vs number of spawns. You can use different weapons on different maps but changing the times per map/gametype is silly when the end goal is to make a consistent experience.

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When we're talking about a general design philosophy of course you can. Argue saturation, the benefits / drawbacks of spawns overlapping, diversity over quantity, ease of use vs number of spawns. You can use different weapons on different maps but changing the times per map/gametype is silly when the end goal is to make a consistent experience.

 

 

xboxdigger 94, on 01 Jul 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:snapback.png

I don't want to say that I want a certain time. It was an example. It depends solely on the map, and what plays best for that specific map (And Halo 5's sandbox in general). Some may be slower, and some may be faster.

 

I think that is the first thing 343 has to change, because at the moment they want the same TIME for each weapon (Sniper is 3 minute on every map) on all the maps (as I understood it). It just seems horrible.

 

Why go for some half decent time that works ok on every map when you can fine tune them all?

I agree with this. The approach of giving all weapons the same time on each map is a bad decision. There's so many variants to decide whether a certain weapon timer makes sense on a specific map. Stuff like choke points, most used paths (and their size), kills per minute, overall flow without the said weapons, etc.

 

Kind of like how a minute-long timer for camo can make sense for Warlock, but would be a bother on Pit. Or how Pit would have been fine with rockets on a 120s timer instead of 180s. 

 

There are no pros to having the same timers on every map. It's just beyond stupid. There isn't a single Halo game to date (except Halo 4?) that has had consistent weapon times throughout the maps.

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xboxdigger 94, on 01 Jul 2015 - 04:11 AM, said:snapback.png

 

There are no pros to having the same timers on every map. It's just beyond stupid.

Consistency is the main reason. You don't limit weapons in Counter-Strike based on the side balance or increase unit costs on different Starcraft maps. The game itself is static, the maps create the diversity. There shouldn't be a caveat per map because the system hasn't been well enough designed, it's damaging to those learning the game and also viewers watching the game.

 

People will say they don't care about those groups of people, they shouldn't cater to them and yet are quite content using static spawning weapons rather than the more skillful dynamic spawns that require much more engagement.

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How was a game as graphically impressive as Battlefront able to do split-screen, but Halo 5 can't KKKK

Because DICE + Frostbite engine >>>>>>>>>>>> 343i and w.e engine they will use for Halo 5.

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Consistency is the main reason. You don't limit weapons in Counter-Strike based on the side balance or increase unit costs on different Starcraft maps. The game itself is static, the maps create the diversity. There shouldn't be a caveat per map because the system hasn't been well designed enough, it's damaging to those learning the game and also viewers watching the game.

 

People will say they don't care about those groups of people, they shouldn't cater to them and yet are quite content using static spawning weapons rather than the more skillful dynamic spawns that require much more engagement.

 

Weapons aren't spawning on Counter-Strike at all. In absolutely every Arena shooter I have played, and Halo, there hasn't been a unified system like this before.

 

Consistency is not a reason worth taking into account at all.

 

Learning times is possibly the easiest thing in the game, and 343 want's to possibly break maps because someone can't take their time to learn the absolute simplest thing in the game.

 

Spartans are even calling this out, and commentators should know about this when commentating. 343 can even design an app for this.

 

What I mean is, different times for a human means nothing (to learn), but different times for a map can break or make the map.

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Weapons aren't spawning on Counter-Strike at all. In absolutely every Arena shooter I have played, and Halo, there hasn't been a unified system like this before.

 

Consistency is not a reason worth taking into account at all.

We'll have to agree to disagree because to my knowledge most arena shooters have moved to unified item timers.

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We'll have to agree to disagree because to my knowledge most arena shooters have moved to unified item timers.

You can see how potentially that having the same sniper, spawn on 2 different maps and have the exact same time can be bad for gameplay? You don't have the exact same weapons on every map, because it would totally ruin so many maps. At the same time you can't have the same times on the same weapon on every map, because every map isn't designed the same way.

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You can see how potentially that having the same sniper, spawn on 2 different maps and have the exact same time can be bad for gameplay? You don't have the exact same weapons on every map, because it would totally ruin so many maps. At the same time you can't have the same times on the same weapon on every map, because every map isn't designed the same way.

 

Maybe BTB maps can have slower snipers and faster anti-vehicle weapons, but in Arena I don't see the point of different timers.

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Not that my opinion has much bearing on competitiveness since I suck . . . but when it comes to weapon timers, I prefer fast spawn times with more limited ammo.  3 min for snipers is an awfully long time.  Long spawn timers always result in someone (or multiple people) camping at the power weapon spot for half a minute or more - especially if the spawn location was protected (like the snipers in the bases on Ragnarok).  Power weapons are supposed to promote movement, but they can't do that if people just camp at the spot.

 

The long timers also limit the number of players that can use a particular weapon during the match.  I blow at sniping, but I still like using it.  With long timers, I have to decide between taking it because it's fun or forgoing snipes for the entire game because a teammate is better with it than I am.  Short timers, limited ammo means my decision to take snipes affects the team less significantly.  Ancillary benefit: faster timers means fewer fucktards betraying for weapons.  While this may not be an issue with the pros playing at 343, if snipers go to 3 minutes, the amount of betrayals is going to go up.  A lot.

 

When it comes to the multiple tiers and different spawning methods, I personally like it.  Complaints about it being too confusing / difficult for lower level players to understand are misplaced.  True n00bs don't know anything about weapon spawning and don't care to know, so however you spawn it is irrelevant to them.  As they move to shitty non-n00b, they might figure out the static spawns.  That's where most of them are going to stop because they don't care about the other weapons.  If they decide to progress to mediocre, it won't take much effort to figure out the Tier 2 spawns.

 

The biggest tangible benefit to the dynamic spawns is predictability . . . not in the spawn itself, but in what your enemies have.  With the static spawn, everyone can run around with shotguns or swords (and sometimes do).  That gets annoying because a game that was fun can suddenly turn stagnant because everyone's afraid to turn a corner.

 

I like the tiered system and having some weapons spawn dynamically.  +1 to 343 from me for that.  I really dislike overly long static timers.  -1 to 343 from me for that.

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In a standoff, people can stay in the same position for more than 30 seconds easily.

 

 

So people cannot cheat with it? All my posts about spectator mode have been about this lol.

 

30 seconds in a game of half decent players isn't enough time to properly organise a strategy against a half-competent player. 

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I don't really buy the argument that having different timers for weapons depending on the map is a problem for new players/viewers. For viewers, that's what the casters are there for (or we could throw up a graphic with info like "Sniper - every 2 minutes" during the pre-game flyovers, which I love), and for players, honestly, Halo is not a difficult game to learn. Making it easier for people isn't going to be what brings in new fans, making it more fun and exciting is. To me, that means tuning each map to be as well-balanced and exciting as possible, not trying to make them all as same-y as possible in the name of simplicity. 

 

Also, I'd like to throw in my two cents in support of quicker timers on sniper, with less ammo per sniper to balance things (maybe I'll contradict myself here, though, and say that if we're reducing sniper ammo, it probably needs to be across all maps).

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30 seconds in a game of half decent players isn't enough time to properly organise a strategy against a half-competent player. 

Yes it is, I could bring up pit/lockout ts gameplay where people have been in the same spot for over 30 seconds. There's no gurentee the person is still there but you and a teammate could sync two nades to a certain spot as an example and get a completely free kill this way. The longer the delay is the less chance there becomes of this happening (within reason, no need for a 10 minute delay).

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If you change the timers on each map, you're inherently building each map to play the same in terms of power weapons. 

 

CE had mostly standard weapon timers (excluding BTB)... it shouldn't be that big a problem.

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Having 3 different spawn systems is the epitome of unnecessary complexity. I can't think of anything this system does significantly better than just putting everything on static timers and being done with it.

Additonal complexity is only justified if it adds something substantial to the game.

Instead, putting tier 2 weapons on dynamics timers is a  terrible idea. There is no chance in hell I'm going to be despawning my sword until I need a need a new one, in which case im just going to find the closest weapon spawn and pick up a needler or something and get a FULL sword uncontested where only I know when its up,immediately, and only the time it takes to walk till the spawn, which will most likely be under 5-10 seconds.

H2 and H2A prove that dynamic spawning creates nothing but snowballing advantages, with zero positives to gameplay that static spawns don't do better.

The fact that dynamic powerup spawning works in other games is irrelevant, because those games aren't halo, and we already know it doesn't work in Halo.

 

Luckily there are static spawns for the most important (tier 3) power weapons, so you probably won't be seeing this making a massive difference. But in a game where matches often end up 50-49 I'd be disgruntled if I lost the game just because of a bad dev choice.

 

What is troubling to me is that they added complexity to the game with no upsides and some downsides, instead of just sticking with an intuitive "static spawns for everything system" that anyone can understand.

Moreover, they had to spend time designing this system that they could have used for useful things, so it's no wonder we don't get things like splitscreen.

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Someone please help me from getting a brain aneurysm.

 

a6d783c7313bdbca9657f649afaa71d3.png

Why do a lot of people refer to Halo 5 as Halo V? When has that ever been used for them to think that's the name? I don't know why, but it annoys me.

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