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CyReN

Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Lol are you replying to me? i didn't even compare pistols. you'r clutching at straws here and you know it. You didn't even address my points, in fact you just made the exact point iwas making only put a positive spin on it. Spawning with pp also promotes map movement. Why din't we just do that? you'r using waypoint/bnet logic. I can remember them using the exact same logic you'r using during h2/h3 to advocate smg/ar starts.  we shouldn't need a crappy startingweapon to promote mp movement. We need good maps to promote map movement. Fuck this dumbass linear aggressionb bullshit. A few years ago competitive players were raging that the halo games were becoming more about mindless linear aggression and now you want to actually promote that shit? What has halo reach /halo 4 done to kids these days. Freakin' noobs

 

It's like, you make a decent point, but then you just completely bury it under a mound of shit.

 

 

 

I made alot of valid points

 

I've just been skimming, but all you've seem to have done is make claims without elaborating on them, then talking shit to everyone when no one is even being aggressive back.

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It's like, you make a decent point, but then you just bury it under a mound of shit.

He's gone forever now.

 

Although, he'll probably try and DDoS the website.

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A month later, I get the response...

 

...and it's an idiotic post where you accuse me of wanting to destroy the skill gap. What a surprise. You don't even understand the points I'm making and claim I'm asking for linear aggression. I'll try to explain to you why there's more skill in the game than just a weapon that shoots far, easily.

 

H2A requires a stupid amount of teamshooting because in most 1v1 battles, people don't miss much since the weapons are so easy to use. It forces people to sit back until they're 100% certain an area is clear to make a push. No risk/reward factor, just dumbed down decision making. If teamshooting isn't the there to turn the tide of a battle, in 95% of scenarios, the person who took the first shot will win. You seem to be under the impression that because the gun can shoot far and be precise, it means it's skillful, but it's a big mistake.

 

You could give everyone snipers and it wouldn't make the game more skillful because the H2A sniper is a piece of shit that anyone can use, just like the BR. It just makes the game devolve into peek shooting and no chances of seeing people take risks or try different plays ever. Just the mindless "kill everyone, push up, spawn trap, repeat until better weapon spawns or objective pull". If no one gets a kill, no one pushes up or even risks going for flank. This, once again, dumbs down the game to one specific tactic and setup that every team in the world that is somewhat competent will resort to.

 

The point I'm making here is that if it's so stupid that even babies can get a crossmap kill with little to no amount of marksmanship needed, then it's hurting the game and the meta more than it does good. That's where the H5 BR falls in comparison to the H5 pistol. The RRR, bullet magnetism, higher kills per clip, and burst fire just all make it much easier and less punishing to use. And I'm not advocating that it should all stay this way, for instance, the pistol should have a greater kills per clip ratio or much faster reload speed to make up for it. However, while getting long range kills with the pistol is harder, it still very much is possible but requires a much higher amount of skill than it does with a BR (something you'd call dumbing down the game for some senseless reason). The pistol has the higher TTK and therefore, in good hands, should be able to outshoot rifles assuming you don't miss (which once again, most who advocate for pistol starts won't consider it unless it has been buffed and has no flinch/recoil). Of course, it's harder, but whoever has a rifle at this point and is in a power position earned that advantage from pushing up to a rifle spawn, and staying alive to get there. Now I'm not sure why anyone would be against that because it's a fucking fundamental of arena shooters, but whatever. The difference is that cascading advantages are negligible in a situation like this, because, once again, the pistol is still a precision rifle and has the better optimal TTK. It's not like ARs or SMGs where you get melted before even damaging someone for 20% of their shields. The grenades also dish out an insane amount of damage. You're more than just able to fight back off spawn.

 

Once again you're just so mistaken in thinking that risking pushes in specific situations where the opponent team has a good setup or going for flanks is "mindlessly holding forward". You're just making it look like you understand so little about risk/reward situations, your environment and making the most of the movement options that are available to you. This has little to do linear aggression to begin with, it's in fact about allowing the individual to make more different pushes rather than always waiting for numbers because otherwise, everyone will always get 4 or 5'd even when attempting to move across the map, and it'll devolve the game back to peek shooting until a numerical advantage obtained and everyone converges on the few opponent team members left alive and so on. Before you point out CE, no, people don't get crossmap 3sk'd when you look at a map from corner to corner. The difference also lies in the segmentation of CE maps, which is something that cannot be applied to the huge open spaces H5 has on some maps because they were designed to make sense and not feel cluttered with the new abilities in mind.

 

Can you show me an example in Halo where giving the players shorter range starting weapons promotes "better" gameplay? "Better" as in the sense of "allowing other tactics than just holding forward". I also mean a real example, not just theorycrafting, because we can theorycraft anything and everything and make it sound like it will work on paper. If you could post some gameplay that would be best, because I'm having a real hard time picturing it.

Atleast in my opinion, the reason you always wait for "numbers" is because you in fact can't kill people fast enough at range, so you have to wait for your teammates to get kills.

 

Now if somehow the h5 pistol allowed the best players to consistently kill people at range with it, and it had an acceptable clip, and the aiming skill gap was even higher, we'd essentially be right back to CE pistol, and I think we all can agree the chances of that happening are next to zero.

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^ CE Pistol vs any DMR. The weaker scope and more importantly the fact that it's not hitscan make a difference by limiting the effective range somewhat without a hard limit such as damage drop off or decreasing accuracy.

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So when people are talking about the pistol as a starting weapon they're looking for a weapon with a fast TTK, capable of crossmapping, and being hard to use on top of that.  Is this a fair assessment of what people want?

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So when people are talking about the pistol as a starting weapon they're looking for a weapon with a fast TTK, capable of crossmapping, and being hard to use on top of that.  Is this a fair assessment of what people want?

Bingo

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So when people are talking about the pistol as a starting weapon they're looking for a weapon with a fast TTK, capable of crossmapping, and being hard to use on top of that.  Is this a fair assessment of what people want?

 

Easy to use, difficult to master.

 

Not "able to easily hit anyone at any range because permanently red reticule"

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Can you show me an example in Halo where giving the players shorter range starting weapons promotes "better" gameplay? "Better" as in the sense of "allowing other tactics than just holding forward". I also mean a real example, not just theorycrafting, because we can theorycraft anything and everything and make it sound like it will work on paper. If you could post some gameplay that would be best, because I'm having a real hard time picturing it.

Atleast in my opinion, the reason you always wait for "numbers" is because you in fact can't kill people fast enough at range, so you have to wait for your teammates to get kills.

 

Now if somehow the h5 pistol allowed the best players to consistently kill people at range with it, and it had an acceptable clip, and the aiming skill gap was even higher, we'd essentially be right back to CE pistol, and I think we all can agree the chances of that happening are next to zero.

I don't think I can think of any Halo game which has a sandbox as balanced and diversified (talking about useful weapons here) as H5 does. CE is probably as close as it gets, but even then, it doesn't have a step-up from the pistol aside from the sniper (it's more about power-ups), and while most weapons feel certain niches, none of them have real overlapping roles.

 

Reach could have been an example of a relation similar to the H5 pistol/BR, IF pistol starts had been used in NBNS and some DMRs left on the maps, but even in that game, I don't recall the magnum being much harder to use than the DMR, which is the main factor in H5's case. They were for the most part balanced around their own respective bloom spread, and once bloom was removed you could see a massive unbalance and the pistol would win against the DMR in 90% of fights, and both of them took a dump on the rest of the sandbox. You could have noted an actual difference on much bigger maps than the ones MLG used. But the main point here is that such data doesn't exist, and I feel H5 would be the first of its kind.

 

As for waiting for numbers because you can't kill people fast enough, I don't think that makes sense. Why would I be afraid to push up if I know the person's not going to kill me unless they have a God-tier shot? It's similar to how you'd be willing to cross a certain stretch knowing your opponent is a noob sniper, but wouldn't even poke out if you were facing pros.

 

Anyhow don't forget that the point isn't just to give players a weapon with plain shorter range -- it's a trade-off where you need more skill to use it at range, not a situation where your bullets will just disappear if you're too far, like H3 did because of the BR's random spread.

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Reach could have been an example of a relation similar to the H5 pistol/BR, IF pistol starts had been used in NBNS and some DMRs left on the maps, but even in that game, I don't recall the magnum being much harder to use than the DMR, which is the main factor in H5's case.

 

Reach's pistol had randomized spread even without Bloom -- your shot wouldn't necessarily go straight.

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Reach's pistol had randomized spread even without Bloom -- your shot wouldn't necessarily go straight.

Can't say I knew this much, though it explains a lot of things.

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Are you guys mentally ready to lose at close range BECAUSE you have a BR and your opponent has an assault rifle? Of course, you and your opponent have to be equally skilled.

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Are you guys mentally ready to lose at close range BECAUSE you have a BR and your opponent has an assault rifle? Of course, you and your opponent have to be equally skilled.

or if they have a pistol, because it has a faster kill time.
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Oooo Someones egos hurting. Tell me. How are you so sure youve never played me? This will be good lol

Pretty sure most players here can remember every time they've been goosed, especially recently.

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I had to remove so many dank posts from this thread.

:saucey:

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Are you guys mentally ready to lose at close range BECAUSE you have a BR and your opponent has an assault rifle? Of course, you and your opponent have to be equally skilled.

Well, if all you have is a BR, you could intelligently move to avoid close range encounters.

 

Play to the strength of the weapons you're holding: keep players at range if you have a BR and don't blindly rush through doors and into enclosed spaces. If you have an AR force your opponent into a close range firefight where you have the advantage. Whip out an SMG whenever you're entering a small space to counter ARs and whenever you have the drop on someone at close range.

 

That sounds far more interesting than "I can go anywhere and do anything because I have my BR". The lack of weapon diversity due to the all powerful BR (barring power weapons) is getting quite stale imo.

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The guy that composed 117 is doing the H5 soundtrack.

Yeah, I know Jinnouchi is coming back for Halo 5. Though, judging by the beta's main menu music, I'm not very optimistic.

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Well, if all you have is a BR, you could intelligently move to avoid close range encounters.

 

Play to the strength of the weapons you're holding: keep players at range if you have a BR and don't blindly rush through doors and into enclosed spaces. If you have an AR force your opponent into a close range firefight where you have the advantage. Whip out an SMG whenever you're entering a small space to counter ARs and whenever you have the drop on someone at close range.

 

That sounds far more interesting than "I can go anywhere and do anything because I have my BR". The lack of weapon diversity due to the all powerful BR (barring power weapons) is getting quite stale imo.

 

Agreed, while the BR is the main utlity weapon I'd like to spice the sandbox usage up in 4v4s. 

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I really hope they improve the medals. Change how they look and get rid of the pointless ones.

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