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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I want AR and Pistol starts. I'm tired of weapons in the sandbox not being used. Halo 2,3,4 the BR was the best and only choice. (Halo 4s DMR was too good long range). But now in halo 5, the assault rifle can compete at medium range, and the pistol is the fastest kill time, and biggest skill gap. As long as the maps have good weapon placement, the AR/pistol start will be fine.

 

Whoops, didn't mean to upvote or downvote. Anyway, like Doogles said, I'd rather the AR be limited to close quarters and pistol be close-mid to mid-long range. This will give players a fighting chance against BR/DMR players at range--they can get the kill if they're skilled enough with the pistol--but the odds will still favor the DMR/BR user slightly.

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Pistol/Ar starts wouldbe dumb as fuck. 1st of all it would actually raise the score gap while decreasing the skill gap. (If this isn't you'r experiance then you must be playing at an extremely low level which means this type of experiance is entirely irrelavent)  secondly pistol ar start would also have the same effect on halo as sprint, bloom, h3 spread/maps. Anyone advocating this wants a more dumbed down halo were you dont have to think but just hold foward and constantly flank with no thought (linear aggression)

I'm guessing you haven't read the whole thread, or at least the important sections. AR + Buffed Pistol in Halo 5 would be much different than SMG/AR starts in H2/3/R. 

 

And to your linear aggression argument, AR/Pistol starts would promote different types of playing styles, instead of constant BR-fests. People would spawn with the strongest weapon, but be able to pick up easier or better ranged weapons. 

 

Also, there weren't a lot of long sightlines in the Beta, aside from Eden & some of the forge maps. 

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I'm guessing you haven't read the whole thread, or at least the important sections. AR + Buffed Pistol in Halo 5 would be much different than SMG/AR starts in H2/3/R. 

 

And to your linear aggression argument, AR/Pistol starts would promote different types of playing styles, instead of constant BR-fests. People would spawn with the strongest weapon, but be able to pick up easier or better ranged weapons. 

 

Also, there weren't a lot of long sightlines in the Beta, aside from Eden & some of the forge maps. 

Yes itwould be different. Not in a good way though. ar pistol would promote far more of a linear aggresson play style. FAR more than h3. If your happy with a dumbed down game with a tiny skill gap ar pistol is the way to go. If this happen i'll facepalm so hard. It would be funny to watch pro players sprint around the map with little to no strategy. Pro games would be comparable to lvl 1 rumble pit halo 3 with ar starts lol

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Yes itwould be different. Not in a good way though. ar pistol would promote far more of a linear aggresson play style. FAR more than h3. If your happy with a dumbed down game with a tiny skill gap ar pistol is the way to go. If this happen i'll facepalm so hard. It would be funny to watch pro players sprint around the map with little to no strategy. Pro games would be comparable to lvl 1 rumble pit halo 3 with ar starts lol

 

I'm facepalming hard at this post...

 

1) Pistol > BR for skill-gap.

2) There would still be zone/map-control, set up by teammates who prefer BR/DMR. More aggressive players would stick with the Pistol.

3) Why are you bringing sprint into this? Power-weapons and power-ups will be the ultimate decider for how much Sprint impacts the game. 

 

Edit: Actually sprint is relevant - it combined with BRs off spawn would be campy as fuck. 

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I'm facepalming hard at this post...

 

1) Pistol > BR for skill-gap.

2) There would still be zone/map-control, set up by teammates who prefer BR/DMR. More aggressive players would stick with the Pistol.

3) Why are you bringing sprint into this? Power-weapons and power-ups will be the ultimate decider for how much Sprint impacts the game. 

1.The pistol IS NOT greater than the br for skillgap if you can't even shoot across the map. If the skill gap's based solely on how hard it is to aim then h3>h2 in terms of skillgap. Which is bullshit and you know it. 2. that's exactly like saying h3 ar starts are fine because you will still have a couple of teamates with brs 3. im bringing sprint into it because clearly ar/pistol starts will highly increase the negative effects of sprint.

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The AR is a QCQ weapon. It always was and it should stay there. That's why it wasn't the most viable weapon and was dropped/switched for a BR/Pistol. The BR/Pistol was able to reach farther and was able to let people be competent. Making the AR viable in the mid-range is just making the game easier for people who can't use precision weapons. Especially because ADS makes it more accurate. We've all seen what happens when you have an automatic weapon that can dominate with range with the SAW. People just wreck house easily, making the game boring and removing all thought process.

Shit sorry was supposed to upvote that

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At some point a lot of this discussion veered way off course. We *actually* don't know what the best starting weapon will be. We can ask for a certain relationship between weapons or a buff/nerf to weapons but we can't really go any further than that without

 

1. Actually using them

2. Seeing all the maps

3. Comparisons between multiple different weapons when the game is live

 

A lot of the conversation here is based in varying situations and varying weapon balancing to suit said posters points when replying to other posters doing the same thing. People are talking past each other and some posts are totally irrelevant to the one they quoted due to the above. 

 

Anyways I'm not convinced the rifle will remain useful if the recoil/flinch/whatever is removed. I'm also not convinced the magnum will be good enough to contest the rifle if its range is suitably nerfed to accommodate magnum starts with rifle niche weapons to put pressure from a distance. That is a very fine line to walk considering the sizes of the maps that we, the competitive community, will be interested in. Its entirely possible to nail this balancing on larger maps due to just having more room to work with but will become problematic when trying to balance both smaller and larger maps to fit this style. They will be trying to do this. We are not the only ones that play Halo. On the smaller maps that we're likely to be interested in its entirely possible that the pistol will dominate everything but flag to flag shooting on Bigship which will reduce rifle usage to irrelevancy. On the flip side if the magnum cannot cover base to P2 for example then people will just be getting slaughtered by people with a rifle. Personally I feel that its a strong possibility that one of those outcomes is what we're actually going to receive. 

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With the removal of flinch/recoil, Pistol will be able to shoot long range WITH skill. It shoots straight, and has a small reticle w/ little bloom. The only thing that DMR/BR would have are longer areas of bullet mag & aim assist. Not even close to the H3 BR. 

 

Also, Pistol is the fastest-killing weapon in the game, so don't even compare it to the H3 Pistol.

 

AR/Pistol starts encourages aggression and map movement - the opposite of Sprint's defensiveness. Can you imagine Lockout BRs with Sprint? Would be even campier.

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At some point a lot of this discussion veered way off course. We *actually* don't know what the best starting weapon will be. We can ask for a certain relationship between weapons or a buff/nerf to weapons but we can't really go any further than that without

 

1. Actually using them

2. Seeing all the maps

3. Comparisons between multiple different weapons when the game is live

 

A lot of the conversation here is based in varying situations and varying weapon balancing to suit said posters points when replying to other posters doing the same thing. People are talking past each other and some posts are totally irrelevant to the one they quoted due to the above. 

 

Anyways I'm not convinced the rifle will remain useful if the recoil/flinch/whatever is removed. I'm also not convinced the magnum will be good enough to contest the rifle if its range is suitably nerfed to accommodate magnum starts with rifle niche weapons to put pressure from a distance. That is a very fine line to walk considering the sizes of the maps that we, the competitive community, will be interested in. Its entirely possible to nail this balancing on larger maps due to just having more room to work with but will become problematic when trying to balance both smaller and larger maps to fit this style. They will be trying to do this. We are not the only ones that play Halo. On the smaller maps that we're likely to be interested in its entirely possible that the pistol will dominate everything but flag to flag shooting on Bigship which will reduce rifle usage to irrelevancy. On the flip side if the magnum cannot cover base to P2 for example then people will just be getting slaughtered by people with a rifle. Personally I feel that its a strong possibility that one of those outcomes is what we're actually going to receive. 

Good points. Guilty as charged ;)

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With the removal of flinch/recoil, Pistol will be able to shoot long range WITH skill. It shoots straight, and has a small reticle w/ little bloom. The only thing that DMR/BR would have are longer areas of bullet mag & aim assist. Not even close to the H3 BR. 

 

Also, Pistol is the fastest-killing weapon in the game, so don't even compare it to the H3 Pistol.

 

AR/Pistol starts encourages aggression and map movement - the opposite of Sprint's defensiveness. Can you imagine Lockout BRs with Sprint? Would be even campier.

 

The thing is, this is 343i we're talking about. There is just no way we can guarantee that they didn't add flinch, recoil, bloom, spread, smaller clip, longer reload, damage drop off or something else that will ruin the pistol.

 

Until we have the game and therefore have accurate weapon stats (spread, RRR, damage, ROF, aim assist) there is no way to tell which weapon is the best starting weapon. This whole thread is just speculation based on the beta and some vague claims by the devs.

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Pistol/Ar starts wouldbe dumb as fuck. 1st of all it would actually raise the score gap while decreasing the skill gap. (If this isn't you'r experiance then you must be playing at an extremely low level which means this type of experiance is entirely irrelavent)  secondly pistol ar start would also have the same effect on halo as sprint, bloom, h3 spread/maps. Anyone advocating this wants a more dumbed down halo were you dont have to think but just hold foward and constantly flank with no thought (linear aggression)

What's ironic about this statement is that you can make the same type of argument for any other weapon starts in Halo 5 because there is no real "utility weapon" in Halo 5, they're all niche situational weapons. A buffed magnum/AR starts will give the magnum it's own purpose in the sandbox but if you had BR or DMR starts instead it might make the magnum a useless weapon in the sandbox. The BR, DMR, LR, and magnum are basically different variations of the same weapon with small differences between each other and if there was any big changes to one of them it might make the other guns lose their purpose in the sandbox. As of right now the magnum is the hardest to use and has the fastest TTK out of all the other "utility weapons" so hypothetically speaking it's currently the best viable option for a starting weapon in Halo 5. Even though I don't agree with having multiple "utility weapons" in Halo's sandbox I can objectively see what's the best option for a starting weapon for Halo 5. IMO though it would be better if 343 got rid of the concept of having the BR, Magnum, LR, and DMR and gave us ONE good utility weapon that is easy to learn but hard to master, that has a fast optimal TTK but a longer average TTK, that you can defend yourself from close, medium, and long range with like the Halo CE magnum. I also believe that projectile based weapons are better than hitscan weapons since they're harder to shoot because you have to lead your shot.

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I hope the ost os more like spartan assault, instead of the really cinematic music that was in h4.

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The thing is, this is 343i we're talking about. There is just no way we can guarantee that they didn't add flinch, recoil, bloom, spread, smaller clip, longer reload, damage drop off or something else that will ruin the pistol.

 

Until we have the game and therefore have accurate weapon stats (spread, RRR, damage, ROF, aim assist) there is no way to tell which weapon is the best starting weapon. This whole thread is just speculation based on the beta and some vague claims by the devs.

Yes and no. The purpose of this thread was to show that the whole competitive community is open to non-BR weapons, if executed properly - a bit idealistic, given we have limited info. But Limited > None.  A lot of good suggestions have been made in regards to weapon balance.

 

A recap of what 343 has said:

 

1) Flinch/recoil was a bug, will be taken out. Twitter.

2) AR smartscope accuracy reduced, and headshot bonuses reduced. Holmes blog.

3) H5 Pistol meant to go closer to CE Pistol than any other Halo Pistol. Lead weapon designer in interview. 

4) Pistol has been beating BR consistently in recent playtests, might be TOO strong. Holmes on Beyond.

 

I think 343 realizes the importance of equal settings across the board, and is trying to make Pistol a worthy counterpart to the AR, and competitive with other rifles.

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With the removal of flinch/recoil, Pistol will be able to shoot long range WITH skill. It shoots straight, and has a small reticle w/ little bloom. The only thing that DMR/BR would have are longer areas of bullet mag & aim assist. Not even close to the H3 BR. 

 

Also, Pistol is the fastest-killing weapon in the game, so don't even compare it to the H3 Pistol.

 

AR/Pistol starts encourages aggression and map movement - the opposite of Sprint's defensiveness. Can you imagine Lockout BRs with Sprint? Would be even campier.

Lol are you replying to me? i didn't even compare pistols. you'r clutching at straws here and you know it. You didn't even address my points, in fact you just made the exact point iwas making only put a positive spin on it. Spawning with pp also promotes map movement. Why din't we just do that? you'r using waypoint/bnet logic. I can remember them using the exact same logic you'r using during h2/h3 to advocate smg/ar starts.  we shouldn't need a crappy startingweapon to promote mp movement. We need good maps to promote map movement. Fuck this dumbass linear aggressionb bullshit. A few years ago competitive players were raging that the halo games were becoming more about mindless linear aggression and now you want to actually promote that shit? What has halo reach /halo 4 done to kids these days. Freakin' noobs

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This really shouldn't be harder to understand than: If I see someone and I can't reliably shoot (note: I didn't say kill) him because my weapon is a piece of shit, I shouldn't start rationalizing how something that is obviously fundamentally wrong is good because of reasons that are much more influenced by other factors.

 

NAIL ON THE HEAD!

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Lol are you replying to me? i didn't even compare pistols. you'r clutching at straws here and you know it. You didn't even address my points, in fact you just made the exact point iwas making only put a positive spin on it. Spawning with pp also promotes map movement. Why din't we just do that? you'r using waypoint/bnet logic. I can remember them using the exact same logic you'r using during h2/h3 to advocate smg/ar starts.  we shouldn't need a crappy startingweapon to promote mp movement. We need good maps to promote map movement. Fuck this dumbass linear aggressionb bullshit. A few years ago competitive players were raging that the halo games were becoming more about mindless linear aggression and now you want to actually promote that shit? What has halo reach /halo 4 done to kids these days. Freakin' noobs

 

Dude you really need to...

 

H3 AR starts was AR/Pistol, so yes a comparison between pistols is relevant. 

 

Pistol is currently the FASTEST-KILLING utility weapon in Halo 5, with incoming accuracy increases due to removal of Recoil/Flinch. 

 

Sprint naturally makes gameplay campier, just like BR starts in H2A (outside of Warlord, a 2v2 map).

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I remember enjoying AR/magnum starts more in the beta, for reasons I'm really not aware of. That hasn't been the case in any other Halo game, unless you count Halo 1's pistol as a 'magnum'. But in response to Holmes' linked comment in the OP about the userbase dropping off in Week 2... I think a good portion of that can be attributed to the main playlist consisting of nothing but Eden (which should honestly just be dropped from the final game, because it is really really bad) and Regret (meh overall, felt a bit slow and restrictive, pretty much the opposite of the 'feel' you guys are going for). While in Week 1 the maps were Empire (decent, ruined by dual sniper spawns) and Truth (the best map in the beta that I played). SO MANY PARENTHESES.

 

Maybe BR starts cut into the map movement options on Regret. I don't really remember, it was months ago at this point. But the magnum is competent enough in Halo 5 that I really don't think we need to crowbar BR starts into the game just for the sake of having BRs.

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Dude you really need to...

 

H3 AR starts was AR/Pistol, so yes a comparison between pistols is relevant. it's not relevant because i was using an extreme example to point out the flaw in your logic about map movement

 

Pistol is currently the FASTEST-KILLING utility weapon in Halo 5, with incoming accuracy increases due to removal of Recoil/Flinch. 

 

Sprint naturally makes gameplay campier, just like BR starts in H2A (outside of Warlord, a 2v2 map).

Sorry but you just don't get it. Facepalming so hard right now. I'm done with you'r incompetence. Go play you'r h3 ars if youlike that "playstyle" so much

 

Lmfao

Edit: h3 pistol not being the same as h5s is irrelvant because i was using an extreme example to point out the flaw in your logic about map movement

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Sorry but you just don't get it. Facepalming so hard right now. I'm done with you'r incompetence. Go play you'r h3 ars if youlike that "playstyle" so much

 

Lmfao

I hate H3 ARs... H5 is much closer to CE than H3.  :holmes:

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I hate H3 ARs... H5 is much closer to CE than H3.  :holmes:

hahahahahahaha now i know you have absolutely zero understanding on the subject

H5 like ce. Hahahahahaha thats hilarious.

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hahahahahahaha now i know you have absolutely zero understanding on the subject

H5 like ce. Hahahahahaha thats hilarious.

Learn to read son. This whole back-and-forth has been you not reading my posts, and constantly saying hurr-durr, Halo 3 ARs, hurr-duur.

 

CLOSER to CE than H3.

 

1) Static weapon spawns.

2) Fast-killing, accurate weapons.

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You're entire original post that i quoted was praising linear aggression. you then contradict yourself by saying you'r sick of using linear agression to get shit done in h2a which is also contradictory as h2a is clearly less about linear aggression than the past 3 halo games. The melees are one of the only thing in h2a that promote linear aggression but most good players will try to position them selves so itdoesn't come down to melees. H3s spread/bad maps caused more linear aggression playstyle. As did reachs bloom/sprint. Lets be clear. What you're looking for is a more dumbed down version of halo that relies on mindlessly holding foward. Stop trying to destroy the skill gap plz

A month later, I get the response...

 

...and it's an idiotic post where you accuse me of wanting to destroy the skill gap. What a surprise. You don't even understand the points I'm making and claim I'm asking for linear aggression. I'll try to explain to you why there's more skill in the game than just a weapon that shoots far, easily.

 

H2A requires a stupid amount of teamshooting because in most 1v1 battles, people don't miss much since the weapons are so easy to use. It forces people to sit back until they're 100% certain an area is clear to make a push. No risk/reward factor, just dumbed down decision making. If teamshooting isn't the there to turn the tide of a battle, in 95% of scenarios, the person who took the first shot will win. You seem to be under the impression that because the gun can shoot far and be precise, it means it's skillful, but it's a big mistake.

 

You could give everyone snipers and it wouldn't make the game more skillful because the H2A sniper is a piece of shit that anyone can use, just like the BR. It just makes the game devolve into peek shooting and no chances of seeing people take risks or try different plays ever. Just the mindless "kill everyone, push up, spawn trap, repeat until better weapon spawns or objective pull". If no one gets a kill, no one pushes up or even risks going for flank. This, once again, dumbs down the game to one specific tactic and setup that every team in the world that is somewhat competent will resort to.

 

The point I'm making here is that if it's so stupid that even babies can get a crossmap kill with little to no amount of marksmanship needed, then it's hurting the game and the meta more than it does good. That's where the H5 BR falls in comparison to the H5 pistol. The RRR, bullet magnetism, higher kills per clip, and burst fire just all make it much easier and less punishing to use. And I'm not advocating that it should all stay this way, for instance, the pistol should have a greater kills per clip ratio or much faster reload speed to make up for it. However, while getting long range kills with the pistol is harder, it still very much is possible but requires a much higher amount of skill than it does with a BR (something you'd call dumbing down the game for some senseless reason). The pistol has the higher TTK and therefore, in good hands, should be able to outshoot rifles assuming you don't miss (which once again, most who advocate for pistol starts won't consider it unless it has been buffed and has no flinch/recoil). Of course, it's harder, but whoever has a rifle at this point and is in a power position earned that advantage from pushing up to a rifle spawn, and staying alive to get there. Now I'm not sure why anyone would be against that because it's a fucking fundamental of arena shooters, but whatever. The difference is that cascading advantages are negligible in a situation like this, because, once again, the pistol is still a precision rifle and has the better optimal TTK. It's not like ARs or SMGs where you get melted before even damaging someone for 20% of their shields. The grenades also dish out an insane amount of damage. You're more than just able to fight back off spawn.

 

Once again you're just so mistaken in thinking that risking pushes in specific situations where the opponent team has a good setup or going for flanks is "mindlessly holding forward". You're just making it look like you understand so little about risk/reward situations, your environment and making the most of the movement options that are available to you. This has little to do linear aggression to begin with, it's in fact about allowing the individual to make more different pushes rather than always waiting for numbers because otherwise, everyone will always get 4 or 5'd even when attempting to move across the map, and it'll devolve the game back to peek shooting until a numerical advantage obtained and everyone converges on the few opponent team members left alive and so on. Before you point out CE, no, people don't get crossmap 3sk'd when you look at a map from corner to corner. The difference also lies in the segmentation of CE maps, which is something that cannot be applied to the huge open spaces H5 has on some maps because they were designed to make sense and not feel cluttered with the new abilities in mind.

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To be fair they're reducing the AR's accuracy in smart-scope and the headshot-bonuses, so it shouldn't be too strong in final game. It should be somewhat useful at mid-range, with burst-fire to control spread.

But how much are they going to reduce them? That's the issue. They could reduce them 1% and call it a day, which overall wouldn't change anything, which is something I could see them doing since they said they put in a toggle "after" the results of the beta feedback. We all know they were going to put that in anyways, so they just feed us lines to keep us happy most of the time.

 

Shit sorry was supposed to upvote that

No biggie, but I've read some posts you put down and although you agree with my thoughts on the AR, but I would have to disagree with your thoughts on the buffed pistol not being a better starting option.

 

The buffed pistol, as people have described it, doesn't have much in the way of aim assist or anything of the sorts. It will be harder to use than a BR/DMR and have less range, which means that picking up a BR/DMR will still be a better option for those who are less skilled, but at the cost of a longer perfect kill time. However, you are still spawning with a competent precision weapon off the spawn. And not just a competent weapon, but one with the fastest kill time. This means that if you are a player who likes to run and flank to get in close, or an aggressive player, you can just push in on people and destroy them with your spawning weapons if you are more skilled and precise with your aim. This creates a larger skill gap because the weapons all play differently similarly to CE and you will have to think about what you are going to use, how you are going to use it, etc. At least that is my take on the whole thing.

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I say, let him rant and bring up bloom/sprint and how it provides the same exact linear aggression that spawning with an AR/Pistol would provide. He's comparing what you are saying to waypoint posts that are irrelevant and brings up plasma pistol starts. Not only that, but it's HILARIOUS AT THE SAME TIME LOL LMAO hahhahahahahahhbuthghuthaha. I love how little people can bring to the table while saying so much.

 

 

I'd be interested into hearing how a weapon that can easily shoot across the map promotes more map movement than something that's harder to use but kills faster? I don't like linear aggression either, but it sounds like this dude just wants to set up BR tower on lockout and let 15 minutes pass.

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.

 

A month later, I get the response...

 

...and it's an idiotic post where you accuse me of wanting to destroy the skill gap. What a surprise. You don't even understand the points I'm making and claim I'm asking for linear aggression. I'll try to explain to you why there's more skill in the game than just a weapon that shoots far, easily.

 

H2A requires a stupid amount of teamshooting because in most 1v1 battles, people don't miss much since the weapons are so easy to use. It forces people to sit back until they're 100% certain an area is clear to make a push. No risk/reward factor, just dumbed down decision making. If teamshooting isn't the there to turn the tide of a battle, in 95% of scenarios, the person who took the first shot will win. You seem to be under the impression that because the gun can shoot far and be precise, it means it's skillful, but it's a big mistake.

 

You could give everyone snipers and it wouldn't make the game more skillful because the H2A sniper is a piece of shit that anyone can use, just like the BR. It just makes the game devolve into peek shooting and no chances of seeing people take risks or try different plays ever. Just the mindless "kill everyone, push up, spawn trap, repeat until better weapon spawns or objective pull". If no one gets a kill, no one pushes up or even risks going for flank. This, once again, dumbs down the game to one specific tactic and setup that every team in the world that is somewhat competent will resort to.

 

The point I'm making here is that if it's so stupid that even babies can get a crossmap kill with little to no amount of marksmanship needed, then it's hurting the game and the meta more than it does good. That's where the H5 BR falls in comparison to the H5 pistol. The RRR, bullet magnetism, higher kills per clip, and burst fire just all make it much easier and less punishing to use. And I'm not advocating that it should all stay this way, for instance, the pistol should have a greater kills per clip ratio or much faster reload speed to make up for it. However, getting long range kills with the pistol is still very much possible but requires a much higher amount of skill than it does with a BR (something you'd call dumbing down the game for some senseless reason). The pistol has the higher TTK and therefore, in good hands, should be able to outshoot rifles assuming you don't miss (which once again, most who advocate for pistol starts won't consider it unless it has been buffed and has no flinch/recoil). Of course, it's harder, but whoever has a rifle at this point and is in a power position earned that advantage from pushing up to a rifle spawn, and staying alive to get there. Now I'm not sure why anyone would be against that because it's a fucking fundamental of arena shooters, but whatever. The difference is that cascading advantages are negligible in a situation like this, because, once again, the pistol is still a precision rifle and has the better optimal TTK. It's not like ARs or SMGs where you get melted before even damaging someone for 20% of their shields. The grenades also dish out an insane amount of damage. You're more than just able to fight back off spawn.

 

Once again you're just so mistaken in thinking that risking pushes in specific situations where the opponent team has a good setup or going for flanks is "mindlessly holding forward". You're just making it look like you understand so little about risk/reward situations, your environment and making the most of the movement options that are available to you. This has little to do linear aggression to begin with, it's in fact about allowing the individual to make more different pushes rather than always waiting for numbers because otherwise, everyone will always get 4 or 5'd even when attempting to move across the map, and it'll devolve the game back to peek shooting until a numerical advantage obtained and everyone converges on the few opponent team members left alive and so on. Before you point out CE, no, people don't get crossmap 3sk'd when you look at a map from corner to corner. The difference also lies in the segmentation of CE maps, which is something that cannot be applied to the huge open spaces H5 has on some maps because they were designed to make sense and not feel cluttered with the new abilities in mind.

Re read my post cus i coud just copy and paste my original post and it would destroy your argument again. Your advocating less thinking, more bumrushing tactics. (less skill) If thats what you enjoy fine but i prefer to play games that take skill

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