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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I don't think Halo 5 will have this problem at launch since there will be non-ranked playlists at launch.

Do we know that for a fact?

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Do we know that for a fact?

 

Don't think so, but I assume 343 would have that for Infection, BTB, and whatnot.

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Don't think so, but I assume 343 would have that for Infection, BTB, and whatnot.

You said at launch :(

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You said at launch :(

 

An Infection and BTB playlists at launch is all but confirmed though. I'm also assuming 343 will do the logical thing, so maybe I am in the wrong

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An Infection and BTB playlists at launch is all but confirmed though. I'm also assuming 343 will do the logical thing, so maybe I am in the wrong

Meanwhile on MCC.

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Didn't Quinn said that he likes to have ranks in social playlists? or something kind of like all playlists with ranks?

Not saying that 343 will do that to all playlists. Would be cool to have ranked/social playlists.

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I would have no issue with the Halo 5 ranking system if there was no placement matches.  No matter how they try and calculate skill, there's always going to be a huge degree of inaccuracy to placing players based on KDA.  The beta made it plenty apparent exactly how poorly this concept can be executed.  I'd rather just have everyone start on equal ground and have them work their way up. 

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An Infection and BTB playlists at launch is all but confirmed though. I'm also assuming 343 will do the logical thing, so maybe I am in the wrong

All we have so far is Menke defending ranked everything.

 

Vetoed can correct me, but I believe he also said to address the problem of people not wanting to play with their friends of lesser skill in ranked, you won't get punished as much for losing. Which will lead to abuse and boosing I think.

 

If there was simply social (or even a couple unranked playlists), there wouldn't be this problem or the flawed solution. However I do advocate social for more options--I wouldn't want to be limited to only 1 or 2 playlists with my lesser skilled friend.

 

How many playlists should ideally be ranked do you guys think anyway? It was fun in Halo 3 to see high meta of vanilla settings in Team Slayer, doubles, swat, snipers, etc, but was ranked Swat really needed for example? Would the competitive variant have more success if there wasn't so many options? Is that a good trade off?

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Then I disagree with him on that aspect.

Same. As with most of the community, so I agree I think they'll do the logical thing.

 

I'm just concerned with the ranking system. I really don't want the same issues plauging matchmaking. Like deranking... hundreds of games ruined just for me personally--maybe more. I can't think of another online multiplayer game where people are actively trying to lose on your team AND the developer does nothing (but that's on Bungie).

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Like deranking... hundreds of games ruined just for me personally--maybe more. I can't think of another online multiplayer game where people are actively trying to lose on your team AND the developer does nothing (but that's on Bungie).

 

What was the root cause of this? Was it that you could get stuck at certain ranks?

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What was the root cause of this? Was it that you could get stuck at certain ranks?

Nah, the root cause was the system taking your teammate's skill into the formula of determining the strength of a win/loss. So people mostly did it to make the system think you're a very bad player so that when you play with someone they'll rank up fast, aka boosting. So it was to make boosting accounts and then they'd often try to charge M$ points or XBL/paypal to play with them to a 50.

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Nah, mostly to make the system think you're a very bad player so that when you play with someone they'll rank up fast, aka boosting. So it was to make boosting accounts and then they'd often try to charge M$ points or XBL/paypal to play with them to a 50.

 

Wow, I never realized that your parties skill level had anything to do with how you ranked up.

 

I wish I could be confident in 343 realizing the issues with past systems and addressing them. SC2s system is great so I'm not completely pessimistic.

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All we have so far is Menke defending ranked everything.

 

Vetoed can correct me, but I believe he also said to address the problem of people not wanting to play with their friends of lesser skill in ranked, you won't get punished as much for losing. Which will lead to abuse and boosing I think.

 

If there was simply social (or even a couple unranked playlists), there wouldn't be this problem or the flawed solution. However I do advocate social for more options--I wouldn't want to be limited to only 1 or 2 playlists with my lesser skilled friend.

 

How many playlists should ideally be ranked do you guys think anyway? It was fun in Halo 3 to see high meta of vanilla settings in Team Slayer, doubles, swat, snipers, etc, but was ranked Swat really needed for example? Would the competitive variant have more success if there wasn't so many options? Is that a good trade off?

Yes, the main point he made was how social split the player pool too much, making Ranked inaccessible for lesser-skilled players, so players who weren't that good would rather play social all day rather than try Ranked at all. I can't be a good judge of that since I always considered Ranked a breeze, even at the highest ranks, but he spoke from experience and mentioned that's how Halo 3 treated him.

 

It makes sense, but I feel that was a problem specific to Halo 3, considering people made new accounts like crazy and getting to max rank could be done within 3-4 hours. Taking into consideration the amount of booster accounts there were and sold 50s, you end up with so many people at high ranks that everyone is a lot higher rank than they should be, meaning that even low levels can be rather competitive. If Halo 5 makes the skill rank grind long enough and doesn't have boosting, I don't think it'd be an issue.

 

But at the same time, Halo Reach had the problem he's talking about. There were so many social playlists and so little incentive to play Ranked (Arena), that at the highest level, you could search for 30+ minutes if not an hour during peak hours, and sometimes end up without getting a game. I once fell asleep searching and went -38 or something stupid because my entire team quit and I got spawn killed the entire game.

 

I'm mixed on this, but I see where he's coming from for sure and would rather trust his word on the matter. However, Halo definitely needs a few playlists which aren't the same as the Ranked experience in order to work well. @@EagleBurn's post covers that.

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The biggest problem with H5 ranks is that any  decent Halo player can get Semi Pro, and the only way to really get into pro for the best players of semipro is to put a large amount of time into the game that not everyone has. The skillgap between the worst semi pros and the best semi pros is too large. There needs to be more ranks, or it needs to be much harder to get to semipro.

 

I remember talking about it with Josh Holmes on Twitter but he didn't really seem to get where I was coming from. All of my friends agreed. We got to semipro and then we kept winning and our 4 digit number was rising and it was just not satisfying. I wish there were skilled and/or experienced Halo players who called the shots at 343 and understood our concerns and all of the little things that we appreciated in the older games.

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@@Sal1ent I think the 10 game rank should be pushed to 20 with the first 5 not counting against you. Hell it takes about 10 just to get a feel for the game. How can a rank be decided on a game you literally just started playing for the first time. I also feel that the highest level you should get with in the first 20 games should be gold. You can grind a higher rank from there and it will still separate the good players from the bad. No one should hit the top rank in 10 or 20 games. Make them work for it. Give the player a reason to play.

It doesn't work like that. They have an expected time frame to place people within their expected skill groups determined by whoever made the system based on how accurately it places them in X number of games. After that the goal is to place them wherever they obtain the closest games. By capping someone destined for Pro/Semi at Gold you'd just set up many easy and unbalanced MM games that wouldn't be fun for anyone unless crushing or getting crushed by people clearly meant for different skill brackets in MM is your particular brand of fun. Continuing to hold your Pro rank or trying to obtain one will be a grind that people have to work for since its a rolling window of the top X amount of players. You'll have to work for it forever if you want to keep it.

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It doesn't work like that. They have an expected time frame to place people within their expected skill groups determined by whoever made the system based on how accurately it places them in X number of games. After that the goal is to place them wherever they obtain the closest games. By capping someone destined for Pro/Semi at Gold you'd just set up many easy and unbalanced MM games that wouldn't be fun for anyone unless crushing or getting crushed by people clearly meant for different skill brackets in MM is your particular brand of fun. Continuing to hold your Pro rank or trying to obtain one will be a grind that people have to work for since its a rolling window of the top X amount of players. You'll have to work for it forever if you want to keep it.

 

The beta intial placements were flawed in some way. Some players were placed in lowers ranks then had to grind a lot of boring easy games until they leveled up to their true rank, other players were placed too higher in ranks and they were getting demolished.

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... Also, Menke is from Starcraft II, a game where "fun" modes don't really exists, so he may not be aware of Halo's history ...

 

 

Why did I think of 343 employees when I read that?

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I would have no issue with the Halo 5 ranking system if there was no placement matches.  No matter how they try and calculate skill, there's always going to be a huge degree of inaccuracy to placing players based on KDA.  The beta made it plenty apparent exactly how poorly this concept can be executed.  I'd rather just have everyone start on equal ground and have them work their way up. 

I completely agree with you on this actually. It will put people into the correct divisions that they are supposed to be. Because lets be honest you can get really lucky with those 10 games, and after that you get placed into a really high division that doesn't even match your skill. I like your idea a lot because it reminds me of the 1-50 system more. I also enjoy the grind.

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The beta intial placements were flawed in some way. Some players were placed in lowers ranks then had to grind a lot of boring easy games until they leveled up to their true rank, other players were placed too higher in ranks and they were getting demolished.

Oh they were totally fubar in beta. Something a lot of people didn't realize is if you, for example, grinded slayer to pro then went to any other playlist you were automatically Pro rated behind the scenes and as long as you didn't have a catastrophic failure in your placements you got Pro immediately.  I only know this because I played with my cousin on alternate accounts and even if he matched or exceeded me point for point, in the same games, on the new account he would be ranked far lower than me and vice versa when I swapped accounts around or even then with both of us on the previously used alternate accounts playing random irons even though those accounts were onyx/semi pro in other lists by that point. The skill matching was likely entirely turned off as well because all of your placements would usually be against fresh accounts or low rated tiers. What this meant is that if you did your placement games as a fresh account or someone rated lower in other playlists you got a lower rank than you would have had you grinded another playlist out first. Its a pretty fatal flaw if it stays that way because it means you can go grind an easy playlist and then hop into HCS or w/e afterwards and automatically be placed higher than you probably should have been just by virtue of  weaker competition in other playlists. I wouldn't be surprised if all of that gets fixed for the final launch nor would I be surprised if it doesn't work at all knowing 343.

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Same. As with most of the community, so I agree I think they'll do the logical thing.

 

I'm just concerned with the ranking system. I really don't want the same issues plauging matchmaking. Like deranking... hundreds of games ruined just for me personally--maybe more. I can't think of another online multiplayer game where people are actively trying to lose on your team AND the developer does nothing (but that's on Bungie).

It's going to be pretty tough to stop the whole thing of every account having multiplayer as long as just one of them has gold.

Everyone is going to have a bunch of smurfs.

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If the game is competitive and has ranks, there will be smurfs. Just how it is

Other games force you to buy new accounts or spend a lot of time in the game before you're able to play ranked.

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Other games force you to buy new accounts or spend a lot of time in the game before you're able to play ranked.

 

Yeah this free gold across all accounts is gonna create lots of smurfs

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