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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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@@Sal1ent I don't know if you can answer but is Arena style gameplay the focus or the exception in H5G? Like is it going to be 10% Arena and 90% BTB?

 

This is actually a concern of mine as well.

 

I've heard nothing about BTB plans for H5, and that worries me, because personally I prefer BTB to 4v4, because BTB feels to be a more free, open implementation of the Halo sandbox than 4v4 playlists do.  More freedom of expression.

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I enjoy BTB as well but I'm certainly hoping that the focus is on 4v4 maps.

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Thanks for playing devil's advocate again Clynt, you are bringing the best out of these guys ^

Lol. 

 

I just think that the pistol all in all is a weaker utility weapon than the BR and that being powerful the moment you spawn is how halo should be played. I am not advocating DMR starts, I am just saying that Pistol and AR is not the way to go. IMO, Pistol and BR is the way to go, with the DMR being the "higher tier" weapon people are talking about. Maybe Pistol and Carbine if the Carbine is weaker than the BR is a compromise that would be okay, but giving players a weapon with such a shallow clip and ineffective range is not something that I think Halo would succeed with. Especially with how shallow the clip is. If you get in a 2v1 situation you are guaranteed to die, whereas in all other Halos you had a chance if their aim was somewhat bad and you were on point. 

 

Picking up a weapon so that you can be effective is silly. Sure the pistol is good, but if the other player has a better utility weapon, you are just spawning the other player at a disadvantage. Sure you could make the same argument about power weapons and semi-power weapons, but power weapons aren't utility weapons. If the pistol had 15 bullets in its clip or was a 4 shot kill with at least 10 I would be down for the idea, but it isn't smart to make the pistol the only weapon IMO. I don't mind it being there as a secondary. 

 

As for saying the BR will make it where map movement doesn't happen, you do realize that there is sprint and thruster in this game right? I didn't play a single slow game the entire time I was playing the Beta; granted it wasn't top level play so I don't know for sure if it would be that way with pros, but I digress. The slowest games I played were actually week 1 because you had to move a lot more to get to an engagement, meaning if one person died a push had to immediately stop and wait for the spawner to spawn and run across the map to catch up rather than just being able to help from range off spawn. This is similar in nature to why pit was so campy. This might just be a problem with map scale, but I didn't not experience this issue with BR starts. 

 

Guys, I like the pistol. I really do. I am not arguing because I think it is a bad weapon. I primarily used it in the Beta because I liked how it straight destroyed BR/DMR users up close and I think it is probably the most skillful weapon Halo has seen in a while. However it is not a primary weapon and should not be the primary starting weapon for competitive settings. 

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@@Sal1ent Also thanks a lot for giving explanation. It is really cool to hear an explanation as to why some things are the way they are, hearing that the pistol was buffed is exciting :)

 

To add the thruster conversation above, my biggest issue with the Beta was when people got away when it felt as if they didn't deserve it. I had several yakkity sax moments where I chased people in circles and had no chance because I was forced to put my gun down when sprinting. In previous Halo's that didn't feature sprint, when you chased an opponent down, your gun was always present, because you were always moving at the same speed as your opponent. Now with Sprint and Thruster, you are forced to basically drop your gun if you want to match speed with a fleeing opponent. Do you guys like this design choice? Or is it a sacrifice in order to put these mobility options in?

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4v4 needs to be the focus. Btb is the only playlist with more than 4 players it should never be the main focus. Hopefully they ship the game with like 6 small arena maps (remixes dont count) 4 mediums and 5 btb maps.

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 If the pistol had 15 bullets in its clip or was a 4 shot kill with at least 10

 

I don't understand your math.

 

It is a 5 shot kill, with 12 bullets per clip.  (2.4 kills per clip.)

 

You would be okay with it if it were bumped up to 3 kills per clip with a 5shot (15 bullets), or if it were changed to a 4 shot with 10 bullets per clip (only 2.5 kills per clip, only marginally better than current form)

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This is actually a concern of mine as well.

 

I've heard nothing about BTB plans for H5, and that worries me, because personally I prefer BTB to 4v4, because BTB feels to be a more free, open implementation of the Halo sandbox than 4v4 playlists do.  More freedom of expression.

 

This is something that worries me as well. More so than the ranking system.

 

We just can't have another Halo 4 where there are 5 playlists at launch and 5 out of 8 maps are made for BTB.

 

I am also hoping they can finally have a 2vs2 playlist at launch. It seems to me as 343 have tried to get rid of 2vs2, never having it at launch and trying to convert Halo's focus over from 4vs4 to 8vs8.

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Lol.

 

I just think that the pistol all in all is a weaker utility weapon than the BR and that being powerful the moment you spawn is how halo should be played. I am not advocating DMR starts, I am just saying that Pistol and AR is not the way to go. IMO, Pistol and BR is the way to go, with the DMR being the "higher tier" weapon people are talking about. Maybe Pistol and Carbine if the Carbine is weaker than the BR is a compromise that would be okay, but giving players a weapon with such a shallow clip and ineffective range is not something that I think Halo would succeed with. Especially with how shallow the clip is. If you get in a 2v1 situation you are guaranteed to die, whereas in all other Halos you had a chance if their aim was somewhat bad and you were on point.

 

Picking up a weapon so that you can be effective is silly. Sure the pistol is good, but if the other player has a better utility weapon, you are just spawning the other player at a disadvantage. Sure you could make the same argument about power weapons and semi-power weapons, but power weapons aren't utility weapons. If the pistol had 15 bullets in its clip or was a 4 shot kill with at least 10 I would be down for the idea, but it isn't smart to make the pistol the only weapon IMO. I don't mind it being there as a secondary.

 

As for saying the BR will make it where map movement doesn't happen, you do realize that there is sprint and thruster in this game right? I didn't play a single slow game the entire time I was playing the Beta; granted it wasn't top level play so I don't know for sure if it would be that way with pros, but I digress. The slowest games I played were actually week 1 because you had to move a lot more to get to an engagement, meaning if one person died a push had to immediately stop and wait for the spawner to spawn and run across the map to catch up rather than just being able to help from range off spawn. This is similar in nature to why pit was so campy. This might just be a problem with map scale, but I didn't not experience this issue with BR starts.

 

Guys, I like the pistol. I really do. I am not arguing because I think it is a bad weapon. I primarily used it in the Beta because I liked how it straight destroyed BR/DMR users up close and I think it is probably the most skillful weapon Halo has seen in a while. However it is not a primary weapon and should not be the primary starting weapon for competitive settings.

I understand this view. But it seems to me that if BR stat with pistol then why even have an AR? If AR/BR start then why have a pistol?

 

Also starting with a good weapon is different from starting with a good weapon at range. Why is it problematic to start with a pistol that trumps BR and DMR at close range but if you intend to go long you seek out a BR or DMR?

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I don't understand your math.

 

It is a 5 shot kill, with 12 bullets per clip.  (2.4 kills per clip.)

 

You would be okay with it if it were bumped up to 3 kills per clip with a 5shot (15 bullets), or if it were changed to a 4 shot with 10 bullets per clip (only 2.5 kills per clip, only marginally better than current form)

If it were 4sk the kill time would make up for it only being 2.5 bullets per clip. Also, I forgot that it had 12 in the beta (thought it had 10, my b ). 

 

Halo 1 pistol could get 4 kills per clip. BR can get 3 per clip. DMR was able to get 3 per clip in Reach and got slightly less in H4. Combine the 2.4 per clip with the difficulty of use because of the "clunky" mechanics you mentioned and there will be far too many situations where 2v1 you just lose. 

 

Also, I said "at least 10"

 

 

I understand this view. But it seems to me that if BR stat with pistol then why even have an AR? If AR/BR start then why have a pistol? 

 
Also starting with a good weapon is different from starting with a good weapon at range. Why is it problematic to start with a pistol that trumps BR and DMR at close range but if you intend to go long you seek out a BR or DMR? 

We have functioned just fine for many years without having the player start with a spray and pray weapon that doesn't reward accuracy. The H5 AR is marginally better and is much more of a niche weapon than the BR or pistol. Pickups should be niche weapons or power weapons, not utility weapons. 

 

What is wrong with spawning the player with with two weapons that allow them to do well in any situation (in other words give them utility off spawn)

 

The pistol doesn't even function well as a utility weapon. Utility means decent in every situation, but it is fantastic close, kind of sucks medium range, and is almost useless long range.

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While we're on the topic I'd like to see the DMR magazine size increased to 15, 14 is just such an odd number.

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Halo 1 pistol could get 4 kills per clip. BR can get 3 per clip. DMR was able to get 3 per clip in Reach and got slightly less in H4. Combine the 2.4 per clip with the difficulty of use because of the "clunky" mechanics you mentioned and there will be far too many situations where 2v1 you just lose.

Low kills per clip is mitigated/negligible due to fast reload and having an effective secondary at all times.

 

 

We have functioned just fine for many years without having the player start with a spray and pray weapon that doesn't reward accuracy. The H5 AR is marginally better and is much more of a niche weapon than the BR or pistol. Pickups should be niche weapons or power weapons, not utility weapons. 

The AR is for casuals not us. The goal here is to get establish a balance in starting weapon selection that caters to both casual and competitive populations, as has been explained many times over in this thread. The importance of "competitive out of the box" is something the competitive community has always wanted, and we are so close to having it, but we have to understand that "out of the box" means casual friendly as well. We cannot exist without them, neither can 343. Just because you disagree with their style it doesn't mean they can be ignored.

 

 

The pistol doesn't even function well as a utility weapon. Utility means decent in every situation, but it is fantastic close, kind of sucks medium range, and is almost useless long range.

Which is why we are pushing for it to be buffed to a state where it can be effective at a longer range in the right hands. This is a massive ask though in terms of balance, and perhaps the most important thing for them to get right if this game is to succeed. Sir @@Sal1ent has already confirmed that the Magnum has been buffed since the beta, we just need confirmation that the random elements are being removed and that the RRR is being extended.

 

Lastly I need to highlight the fact that the Magnum is more skill-requiring than the BR, and again that in the right hands it can compete with all rifles, just maybe not at max ranges. Which is absolutely fine, why do we need a utility weapon for the game to be competitive anyway? The term 'Utility' is very overused, and seems almost like a cop-out, or a word that you can use to validate an idea without reason. Yes you need to have some range off spawn, but why do you need to have the most effective weapon at range off spawn? Why is that considered more skillful than a weapon that takes more skill to use, and is only effective at say 80% of max range? 

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The H1 Pistol vs passable post-H1 weapons has one other difference limiting its power at range; the Pistol isn't hitscan. 

Too much power with hitscan will always end up felling too easy at longer ranges. Not enough power and the game just sucks. Despite this I think Reach did okay with its ZBNS DMR. However that was a relatively slow kill time of 1.6 seconds (yet on average faster than Halo 3 because people could actually hit shots at range), and personally I think this dynamic actually helped with map movement, especially on maps like The Pit in which the accuracy of the weapon made several more valid lines of sight to engage in actual battles from.

 

Ultimately it will come down to map design. If the maps aren't segmented enough to work with hitscan weapons the starting weapon isn't relevant because we'll run into the same issues, just at slightly different levels of gameplay.

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Using the week 1 vs week 2 player retention stats is an awful way to evaluate preferred weapon sets. Two flaws. 1.) Maps were different. Whether they were better or worse is subjective. Still different. 2.) A lot of people played so much the first week that they simply didn't want to continue playing week 2. I understand that it's a preference and neither side is right but I can't in any way, shape, or form see the majority of competitive players taking HCS seriously if there are AR starts. I'm okay with every other playlist having voting choices or a veto system with both gametypes but HCS should, in my opinion, be BR starts. I imagine, with the population that enjoys playing HCS and competitive Halo, there would be a lot of betrayals if every player had to sprint off spawn to fight over the few BRs available on the map. Maybe I'm in the minority. Also, on the subject of players feeling like the BR is ineffective as a result of them being destroyed by much more skilled players.... a proper functioning ranking system eliminates this concern. It should also not be a deciding or weighted factor in determining weapon starts. /opinion

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What in the world is poutine.

 

Simultaneously the most delicious thing ever created and a method to rapidly gain an additional 10% of your body weight without even trying. Also, the official food of Canadia, along with maple syrup, beer and smoked salmon.

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@@Sal1ent What's up man, I know you getting alot of questions in this thread but i'd just like to ask you about jumping in H5.

 

In alot of Halo's "Trick Jumping" was a skill, knowing jumps on a map to gain an advantage but were also hard to pull off (Bottom gold on guardian to top gold for example) was awesome to see and I definitely think it should be in your thinking.

 

There was a whole halo jumping community as you probably well know with all the jumping montages. I was worried for that community when I saw clamber. Will clamber be the death of jumping or how will it work?

 

From a personally POV I spent hours and hours in customs perfecting jumps, slide jumps, ghost jumps, icicle jumps. It might be abit late but I hope you thought about that in map design. Players who put in practice and have a large knowledge of the map should be rewarded.

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I've heard nothing about BTB plans for H5, and that worries me, because personally I prefer BTB to 4v4, because BTB feels to be a more free, open implementation of the Halo sandbox than 4v4 playlists do.  More freedom of expression.

 

I've always found BTB to be much more party-friendly because you don't have to put all your attention in, you can relax and chill a lot of the time.

 

But some of those 2 flag Blood Gulch matches can get mightily tense.

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IMO we already have a decent amount of 4v4 maps( 6? ), add like 1-2 more and with the right settings/tuning, we will have a good pool of maps to pick from for HCS(alongside any epic forge maps that will be created), as long as that is there, 343i can go CRAZY on their BTB Halo experience. I know they arent dumb and realize the importance of HCS and Halo to succeed as "e-sport" so I'm not too concerned that we wont get a full "arena-experience" in 4v4.

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What made thrust slide not feel right? Was it too difficult? Was it clunky? If so I think those could be fixed.

 

Also no invasion? Weak dude, a lot of people were asking for that back, I'm surprised it's not really, it has so much potential.

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