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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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 The game was a fantastic fun game, but it really is -too hard- 

 

I could've used Titanfall as an example as well if it had ranking at launch.

 

michael-scott-laugh.gif

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Yeah but speed doesn't = WIN

better speed means I get weapons, power positions and to safety faster, it might as well be the deciding factor.

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I'd be fine with AR/BUFFED PISTOL starts. I'd be realllly happy with BR/AR Starts so I don't have to 'sprint' around the map trying to find a BR, or DMR.

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better speed means I get weapons, power positions and to safety faster, it might as well be the deciding factor.

 

It is so circumstantial man.

 

You can be sprinting to the power weapon, while i am jogging, i throw the nade while your are sprinting for the weapon and i clean you up.

 

If i am correct, i specifically remember watching Ninja playing h5 without sprinting once in games and he was doing very well. He won most of them as he could actually digest what was going on around him and get the first shot on the sprinters- He was not playing against pros by any means, but sprinting =/= Winning. 

 

Some situations, yes sprinting will help, but others, it will hurt. 

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I'd be fine with AR/BUFFED PISTOL starts. I'd be realllly happy with BR/AR Starts so I don't have to 'sprint' around the map trying to find a BR, or DMR.

I don't think BR/AR solves 343i's concerns . . . but AR/buffed pistol does.

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It is so circumstantial man.

 

You can be sprinting to the power weapon, while i am jogging, i throw the nade while your are sprinting for the weapon and i clean you up.

 

If i am correct, i specifically remember watching Ninja playing h5 without sprinting once in games and he was doing very well. He won most of them as he could actually digest what was going on around him and get the first shot on the sprinters- He was not playing against pros by any means, but sprinting =/= Winning. 

 

Some situations, yes sprinting will help, but others, it will hurt. 

Sprinting gives you a speed boost, an speed advantage you can choose to use.

 

Never using sprint, will never give you a speed advantage.

 

Thus you have one less advantage over people who choose to use sprint. So if you are not at an advantage, you must be at a disadvantage, right?

 

I love have Josh talks about the decision of when to sprint and not, like it is a skill .. It's literally at the level of wondering what colour the wall is.

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@@Sal1ent

 

Let's backtrack for a second and I would really appreciate a response to this.

 

The argument you made against not being able to shoot while thrusting, honestly one of the most valid points I've ever heard you bring up. However, you responded to a post about being able to shoot while sprinting. This is something I had suggested a while ago and it got buried and you seemed rather intrigued in your post. Is this something you would honestly consider for H5? Because if so, I can assure that is one less argument for those against sprint.

 

Sprint is used defensively majority of the time because it has little to no offensive capability. Now, having the ability to shoot while doing so drastically increases the versatility of this ability. I would even take it a step further (maybe a little bit late in the development cycle but I'll throw in the full idea I shared a while back) I would even say we could be able to throw a grenade while sprinting. The grenade aspect may be a bit farfetched but it would be interesting to at least test before deciding whether or not to keep it.

 

Looking at it from a gameplay perspective. Let's say your reticule for the assault rifle is "o". While sprinting, your reticule should increase to "O" and your aim assist should decrease in parallel. One argument that I've seen you post in particular a while back is that sprint was designed to provide for more encounters. If you're allowed to shoot while sprinting, this will enable that argument. Because as of now, it's useful only to get to an area, and more frequently, to get away from said area.

 

Looking at it from an immersion perspective. I'm a goddamn super soldier! I should be able to shoot while running with a weapon, more or less throw a grenade while running. I'm pretty athletic myself and I'm almost positive that if I practiced for 20 minutes I could get pretty good at throwing a grenade and running at the same time. Not to mention when I'm sprint my arms don't become useless. Considering you've lowered the delta between base movement speed and sprint, this would honestly complement that change. Would you not agree? Agent Locke in that armor trailer looked like a goddamn animal running through everything; let me mention while shooting and also sticking I think an elite or jackal in the face. This would lead to much faster gameplay interactions in which battles would become more intense because you are re-implementing what sprint took away from Halos 1-3 and that was the constant firefights.

 

What do you think?

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@@Sal1ent In regards to sprint, could you not appease both the casual player who wants sprint, and the competitive community who do not want sprint, by designing let's say 5 or 6 really solid maps that are of smaller size (that won't require sprint to move around in), and making a "Hardcore" matchmaking playlist that has all the HCS settings (DMR or BR start, no radar) as well as no sprint?

 

Wouldn't this be the best of both worlds and bring this community together? I and many others truly feel Halo 5 has a solid competitive foundation and I respect the amount of feedback you are considering from us and I think Halo 5 has a LOT of competitive potential, but almost everyone here thinks SPRINT, and by extension the SIZE OF THE MAPS, is the gamebreaking factor and is enough of a problem that we won't buy Halo 5. I think most of us like the kill times and the increased movement/strafe speed you are proposing, and most of us like thruster and don't mind the other spartan abilities. It really does come down to sprint and map size for almost everyone here, and there's no reason both cannot exist.

 

I just want to bring this community back together and rebuild the trust between developer and community. Nobody here hates on people who like Infection or Grifball (and sprint probably adds a lot to these fun gametypes!). We also don't hate people who like SMG/AR starts and radar as long as we are not forced to play those gametypes in a playlist. We just don't want sprint and we don't want huge map sizes. That's really all we are asking for at this point I think, and I think a lot of the hate you get would evaporate almost completely if you did this.

 

I really hope you consider this post. I think if you announced exactly what I'm proposing you would gain SO much respect from the competitive community. I understand you really want this game to be competitive while retaining your own vision of what competitive Halo can be, but I think you have to just concede that 95% of us will not be interested in this game and the HCS as long as sprint and huge maps are around. You have to realize what you are coming into here. Halo never had sprint and the gameplay revolves around its lack of sprint and being able to move and shoot at all times in smaller maps. Removing those elements is a gigantic slap in the face to what every fan has thought of as competitive Halo.

 

I'm actually fine with leaving sprint in HCS... for now... and let the community develop no-sprint meta and gameplay so you can watch it and study it and see how it plays out in that playlist. At least give it a chance and then if it's apparent the game flows well without sprint on these smaller maps then give it a chance at one or two HCS events and see how THAT plays out. This community would go absolutely ballistic and sing your praises if you just gave us a chance to show what no-sprint/small maps can do for this game. You could then take feedback from the event in terms of viewership and overall fan response and ask them NON-BIASED QUESTIONS (by that I mean, don't even mention the word "sprint" in your surveys) about how they felt about the excitement and pace of the event, and compare it with market research from HCS events that did have sprint and larger maps. Considering how huge the viewership of MLG was back in 2003-2010 and how much of the playerbase has retained for years and years in those games (I mean seriously, the only reason MCC was so hyped was because so many people want those types of Halo games, even a decade later), the answer might surprise you. Do what's best from a community AND business perspective and at least consider what no-sprint could do for viewership and competitive marketing of your game! And think about the word of mouth we would spread to sell more copies of your game if Halo 5 had this playlist and these maps.

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@@Sal1ent

The argument you made against not being able to shoot while thrusting, honestly one of the most valid points I've ever heard you bring up

that entire point implied that the person thrusting has basically an aim bot, he totally ignored the obvious skill factor involved in accomplishing anything mid thrust, and how the randomness is actually for the game because in this instance it means there's a skill gap. It would have a natural trade off, it doesn't need to have an artificial one. Hell, if it is too easy, allow shooting but remove the reticule aim assist and magnetism, then it's even harder.

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In fairness, let's look at the biggest things we disliked about H4:

 

1. PoD

2. Loadouts

3. Sprint

4. Customizable AAs, tactical packages, and support upgrades yielding 1,040 possible combinations

5. Weapon unlocks based on XP accumulation

 

Four of the five are gone. Poof. Not there anymore. It's hard to argue that our feedback did not influence this - or even prompt this.

If it was our influence that made them decide to take out those things, mechanics like thruster pack and stabilizers wouldn't have taken the place of things like POD and loadouts.

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that entire point implied that the person thrusting has basically an aim bot, he totally ignored the obvious skill factor involved in accomplishing anything mid thrust, and how the randomness is actually for the game because in this instance it means there's a skill gap. It would have a natural trade off, it doesn't need to have an artificial one. Hell, if it is too easy, allow shooting but remove the reticule aim assist and magnetism, then it's even harder.

 

He actually never implied that at all. He actually stated:

 

 

When you allow players to shoot while thrusting (no tradeoff), it feels random. The instant nature of the ability means no tell before movement begins. The speed of movement makes it too hard to track the target in that crucial first few frames. Thruster becomes overpowered and dominates 1:1 combat resolution.

 

Which is at least valid. Also, I never said I agreed with it either; for the record I don't. However, I can interpret what he is saying from a practical perspective. Thus, a valid argument. I have yet to see a valid argument for sprint though.

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Sorry, I played the PC version where only one gun aimed for you.

 

Shitty weapon balance ,ADS, Burn Cards and Camo AA still exist on PC. I too played TF on PC and the game does not have a big skill gap.

 

(@mods sorry for off topic )

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He actually never implied that at all. He actually stated:

 

 

 

Which is at least valid. Also, I never said I agreed with it either; for the record I don't. However, I can interpret what he is saying from a practical perspective. Thus, a valid argument. I have yet to see a valid argument for sprint though.

It still does though, for the randomness to be negative it would have to be easy to pull off to the point were everyone can do it, he said it's too hard to track for the person not thrusting, ignoring the fact that it's just as hard for both players, implying that it's easier for for the person thrusting when that's not true, the aimbot comment was just used to animate the point, not literally an aimbot.
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Disable aim assist during thrust, rather than disabling shooting might be the ticket.

it's what we should be doing with every movement option, even slide and clamber, though the latter should also not restrict a player to having to look in one direction to execute the movement.

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I think 343 wants the pistol to be a secondary though....which is most likely why Br/Ar starts wasn't a thing in the beta. If only the pistol was a bit stronger.

AR/BR was in for the third week.

 

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I would be fine with BR starts or BR/AR starts. Not with AR or AR/Magnum

 

A good Skill based matchmaking system will get rid of new players complaining about getting wrecked by BRs.

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I would be fine with BR starts or BR/AR starts. Not with AR or AR/Magnum

 

A good Skill based matchmaking system will get rid of new players complaining about getting wrecked by BRs.

 

noob. BR is massively overrated, especially when it comes to a skill gap.

 

AR + Buffed Pistol FTW.

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To your point, though, I do not think that having sprint prevent shield recharge is the best tradeoff when retaining sprint.  I would prefer to enable shooting during sprint (but disable aim assist) and have taking fire while sprinting slow you down.  Then you could always chase down that one-shot trying to sprint to escape and you avoid the both the helpless power-weapon rush and team support issues you describe.

The damage caused by implementing sprint in this game cannot be contained, due to the difference in speed between base movement and sprint - especially when it comes to map design. Some solutions may cause less side effects than others, but in the end the bad (by far) outweighs the good (if there's any).

 

Sprint is either in or out.

 

 

 

We may feel their market analysis is incorrect and that the specific choices they have made do not support that goal.  We could then argue that aspect of the decisions and avoid wasting time on the competitive gameplay arguments.  This would avoid much of the frustration that comes with making a good, solid gameplay argument only to have it fall on deaf ears . . . not because the argument wasn't valid, but because it did not address the reason the decision was made.

You see, with 343's vision, Halo's gameplay is casual by default and people looking for competitive settings will be stuck with custom maps/matches or (at the very best) low-population playlists.

 

My question is: Why haven't 343 designed the game without those abilities in mind and had them turned off by default, while allowing casuals to toggle them on in customs or even have few casual playlists where they're turned on? Why should the players who'll leave the game when BO3 drops enjoy the full package, while we get stuck with a heavily modified version of the game? I can pretty much guarantee you that those players wouldn't even care about the game having X feature, as they're basically looking for something to keep them busy for a month or so.

 

343 can make the game work for both parties if they want to.

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noob. BR is massively overrated, especially when it comes to a skill gap.

 

AR + Buffed Pistol FTW.

 

I want a starting weapon that is effective at various ranges. 

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