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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Sometimes I think people hate Halo 5 because of nostalgia.

Bringing up nostalgia. What is this? Waypoint?

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wrong time zone ;)

It will end when it's 6PM in some US time zone (don't know which one though...)

Probably Pacific as that's when TWD will be on in Eastern and Central

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I never said that only an exact CE clone could be a good Halo game but the thing is on this forum most people agree (even the people I am arguing with lol) that some stuff is just bad for the Halo series (sprint is a simple example). I just don't get the point of supporting 343 anymore when we told them that sprint is bad and game breaking for 5 years now and they still don't get it.

To be honest it is even worse: They say that a big poll on BE/Waypoint/reddit is a self selection bia but their own shitty 11% result means the world.

 

 

There is this one point where you just can't take it anymore. Devs coming to this forum and trying to convince people that their stuff is good after lying to us several times. They are ignoring the feedback and didn't change much after their Beta.

 

I remember that people like Saucy and Cyren said they are going to tell their honest opinion and I remember that Saucy had a clear statement in that episode of bomb planted. The fact that it just takes something like "you can toggle of sprint in customs" to get them hyped again just blows my mind at some point.

 

I for my part just can't accept the stuff they do anymore. They said they want a competitive game we gave them feedback they ignored us. That's it I am done with 343.

Excuse me for bringing up the CE thing, I've just found people will use incredibly blanket statements to support their positions, for instance I recall someone arguing that reach was better than 2 because DMR, sorry but that kind of logic is half-baked, not that you ever used that type of logic anyway.

 

I don't know if its fair to say that 343i have ignored us, I would argue that they've listened (and communicated) with us more than ever before, that being said when it comes to certain things like sprint I think they've made a conscious decision to do otherwise, I mean sprint at best is useless and at worst game breaking so I agree wholeheartedly that it should either be removed or replaced but its pretty clear that 343i (for whatever reasons) want it to be in halo.

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Visual AND Sound design for me. We can't completely ignore the fact that Halo 5 Guardians is the only Halo game (except H3:ODST) that changed the shield's sound completely. Even Halo Wars and Halo: Spartan Assault keep the similar (if not, the same) sound for low shields, no shields and shields recharging. Even Halo 4 keeps that tradition.

 

Lets replace the original Rocket Launcher and looks sick and original as hell with a generic design! That's a great idea!... cmon bruh.

I'm (positively) surprised that they didn't ruin the AR yet...

And I hope for better marine design this time!

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I seriously don't get this legendary weapon concept. It just seems like redundancy to me.

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I seriously don't get this legendary weapon concept. It just seems like redundancy to me.

It's so you have some modified versions of the same guns, but have them only exist on a single map. To give the maps a sense of variety and uniqueness.

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It's so you have some modified versions of the same guns, but have them only exist on a single map. To give the maps a sense of variety and uniqueness.

well so far, both swords operate exactly the same way, so hopefully the rockets can actually be different.

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well so far, both swords operate exactly the same way, so hopefully the rockets can actually be different.

The Bane had a movement buff.

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I seriously don't get this legendary weapon concept. It just seems like redundancy to me.

 

343 and redundancy? Naaaaaahh

 

 

halo-4-scattershot.pnghalo_4_shotgun_by_deunan4g63-d5li2uo.jpghalo_4_by_uhzenostrom117-d574ejx.png2821625-web_preview.pngh4_prometheans2821523-web_preview.pnghalo-4-rocket-launcher.pngvkk37w0kkefflej8zeya.jpg2821628-web_preview.pnghalo_4_assault_rifle_by_uhzenostrom117-dhalo_4_storm_rifle_by_uhzenostrom117-d57500px-H4_suppressor_trans.pnghalo_4_by_uhzenostrom117-d574b8o.png468px-DMR.pnghalo_4_covenant_carbine_by_uhzenostrom11H4-ForerunnerLightRifle_Final.png

 

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343 and redundancy? Naaaaaahh

 

 

halo-4-scattershot.pnghalo_4_shotgun_by_deunan4g63-d5li2uo.jpghalo_4_by_uhzenostrom117-d574ejx.png2821625-web_preview.pngh4_prometheans2821523-web_preview.pnghalo-4-rocket-launcher.pngvkk37w0kkefflej8zeya.jpg2821628-web_preview.pnghalo_4_assault_rifle_by_uhzenostrom117-dhalo_4_storm_rifle_by_uhzenostrom117-d57500px-H4_suppressor_trans.pnghalo_4_by_uhzenostrom117-d574b8o.png468px-DMR.pnghalo_4_covenant_carbine_by_uhzenostrom11H4-ForerunnerLightRifle_Final.png

 

I made a huge post of all Bungie's autos, but it got eaten. It's not like redundancy is a new concept to the Halo franchise.

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Is there a real gameplay issue with redundancy? I just don't see it as much of a big deal at all.

  • There can only be so many weapons on each map so even with all the additional weapons you're not going to have a complete clusterfuck.
  • Subtle difference in function (à la H4 rifle balance) requires you to account for said difference.
  • Subtle difference in function (à la H4 rifle balance) does not create rock paper scissors balance.
  • Allows you to present a lot of the story.
  • Encourages aesthetic monetization

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Is there a real gameplay issue with redundancy? I just don't see it as much of a big deal at all.

  • There can only be so many weapons on each map so even with all the additional weapons you're not going to have a complete clusterfuck.
  • Subtle difference in function (à la H4 rifle balance) requires you to account for said difference.
  • Subtle difference in function (à la H4 rifle balance) does not create rock paper scissors balance.
  • Allows you to present a lot the story.
  • Encourages aesthetic monetization

 

The problem with redundancy in a sandbox as clear cut as Halo's is that there shouldn't be any.

There's no real reason why the weapons shouldn't all be unique and serve their own purposes. Utility weapons are sort of different in that regard (because they all need to serve as utility weapons) but, in the end, you only ever start with two (or one) weapons, so one weapon might be considered the "primary" utility weapon while the others branch off and do other things. Aside from that, we shouldn't have glorified clubs like we did with Halo 2-Reach with the Plasma Rifle and Spiker being used as beatdown tools.

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The problem with redundancy in a sandbox as clear cut as Halo's is that there shouldn't be any.

There's no real reason why the weapons shouldn't all be unique and serve their own purposes. Utility weapons are sort of different in that regard (because they all need to serve as utility weapons) but, in the end, you only ever start with two (or one) weapons, so one weapon might be considered the "primary" utility weapon while the others branch off and do other things. Aside from that, we shouldn't have glorified clubs like we did with Halo 2-Reach with the Plasma Rifle and Spiker being used as beatdown tools.

I just gave you reasons though. What's the downside other than simply 'it shouldn't'?

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The problem with redundancy in a sandbox as clear cut as Halo's is that there shouldn't be any.

There's no real reason why the weapons shouldn't all be unique and serve their own purposes. Utility weapons are sort of different in that regard (because they all need to serve as utility weapons) but, in the end, you only ever start with two (or one) weapons, so one weapon might be considered the "primary" utility weapon while the others branch off and do other things. Aside from that, we shouldn't have glorified clubs like we did with Halo 2-Reach with the Plasma Rifle and Spiker being used as beatdown tools.

But what is bad about having diffrent "weapon skins" with small gameplay differences?

As long as the base weapons (mostly human version) used for comp. play are good balanced it shouldn't be a problem to have diffrent weapons?!

It gives the developer the opportunity to use diffrent designs without having to come up with new mechanics and "casuals" get new stuff to look at

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I just gave you reasons though. What's the downside other than simply 'it shouldn't'?

Because a ton of weapons that all act relatively the same is boring and static? Not to mention that, without mechanics that make us want to pick them up, gameplay depth cannot be achieved as well as if every weapon does something different and dynamic.

 

It's really as simple as that.

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But what is bad about having diffrent "weapon skins" with small gameplay differences?

As long as the base weapons (mostly human version) used for comp. play are good balanced it shouldn't be a problem to have diffrent weapons?!

It gives the developer the opportunity to use diffrent designs without having to come up with new mechanics and "casuals" get new stuff to look at

You're missing the point of having additional weapons at all.

There are three different types of weapons in a Halo game:

the utility weapons, the sandbox weapons, and the power weapons.

 

Theoretically, a Halo game can function without the need of sandbox weapons (as seen in Reach MLG v7). But that's a very barebones experience, and doesn't have a whole lot of depth to it (but at least it was consistent, and it worked).

Sandbox weapons are there to add this depth. If you simply have a bunch of weapons that ultimately do the same thing, you're either just lazy or you're opting to, on purpose, lose out on a ton of depth in the gameplay.

 

Take CE, for example. Every weapon (except maybe the Needler) was useful in its own way. Even the AR, with its quick camo, gave you a reason to carry one around. It didn't necessarily mean you wouldn't drop one for a Sniper or Rockets, but each weapon had a different role and dynamic that made the gameplay interesting. This is especially true for modern Halo, where it's unlikely for every member of your team to be able to carry a power weapon around (and, honestly, it shouldn't have to come to that in a 4v4. Power weapons are boons gained through timing, awareness, possible grenade placement, and positioning. Unless it's CE where KT's are fast enough to allow for it and cycling power ups is a thing, no one team should be completely outfitted with power weapons).

Halo 2, by contrast, had a sandbox full of weapons that weren't useful. Oh, sure. Technically speaking, dual-wielding in Halo 2 was better than in Halo 3, but all of those weapons, even when dual-wielded, were utter garbage compared to the BR, Sniper, Rockets, Sword, and Shotgun. I'd sooner carry around a BR and Carbine for the button combos than actually carry around a plasma rifle (PP is different because of the noob combo). And Halo 2's gameplay, while having depth because of button combos, lost out on a ton of depth that could have been there because many of the sandbox weapons had no real purpose.

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True. But in Halo 4 it was on a whole new level.

the only 2 games in the series that didn't have an insane amount of redundancy were CE and reach, 2/3/4 were all horrible when it came to reskins and useless weapons.

 

IMO redundancy is (with little exception) inexcusable , it isn't just the monotony of having every weapon work the same, its also the fact that much much better weapons like GL or the focus rifle won't be brought back, I just find it stupid to have 5 different utility weapons and to have no good weapons besides that.

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It's so you have some modified versions of the same guns, but have them only exist on a single map. To give the maps a sense of variety and uniqueness.

Is that 343i's intention? I thought it was just laziness.

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Because a ton of weapons that all act relatively the same is boring and static? Not to mention that, without mechanics that make us want to pick them up, gameplay depth cannot be achieved as well as if every weapon does something different and dynamic.

 

It's really as simple as that.

But you've already said Halo has clear cut weapon sandbox. There isn't going to be this problem given the balance of the weapons is clear cut and the maps have the correct percentage of different types of niche weapons as pickups. I mean sure if you're limited to a particular number of overall weapons then having weapons that function differently would be beneficial but within a model where the goal is to have many viable weapons (for instance trying to monetize aesthetics) then you're more likely to run into balancing issues or just a slew of shitty weapons.

 

Just generally within the thread, redundancy does not equate to a reduced sandbox. CSGO is a good example where you have multiple options with their own subtle niches (pistols / smg's would be the best example of this) but still a clearly defined system of use.

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But you've already said Halo has clear cut weapon sandbox. There isn't going to be this problem given the balance of the weapons is clear cut and the maps have the correct percentage of different types of niche weapons as pickups. I mean sure if you're limited to a particular number of overall weapons then having weapons that function differently would be beneficial but within a model where the goal is to have many viable weapons (for instance trying to monetize aesthetics) then you're more likely to run into balancing issues or just a slew of shitty weapons.

 

Just generally within the thread, redundancy does not equate to a reduced sandbox. CSGO is a good example where you have multiple options with their own subtle niches (pistols / smg's would be the best example of this) but still a clearly defined system of use.

When I say clear cut, I mean each weapon has a classification and there is a very low amount of weapons to begin with. Balance issues shouldn't be a big deal, (in fact, they have yet to be since CE because of this. Sandbox weapons have never once overrode the utility or power weapons, which, theoretically, are all that is necessary for a functional Halo game. The issue is that, since Halo 2, there is virtually no reason to use most of the sandbox weapons outside of being forced to start with them). And no Halo game yet has ever had too many weapons (just too many useless weapons). There is simply no cause for 343i to begin making weapons with the design of making them all subtly different simply because there aren't enough weapons to necessitate that design choice. Just because 3 of the installments (Reach really doesn't count. Reach cut back on weapons, and added new ones with their own distinct gameplay advantages, but it still has the Plasma Rifle, Spiker, Needler, and Repeater as useless weapons, which makes it bad, but not horrible) couldn't figure out what a dynamic weapon was, does not mean that the sandbox was flooded by any means. Halo simply lost creativity after CE (and then they gained a little back for the intro of the GL and CR, and then lost it again with the loss of the GL). Like, really. we aren't at the point in time where it's justifiable to begin making a bunch of weapons that aren't different. The amount of weapons in the game simply doesn't need it.

 

The balance issues present since Halo 2 aren't a result of having too many weapons and a relative few dominating the rest. The balance issues present since Halo 2 are there because of the higher KT's, the lack of dynamic mechanics attached to many of the weapons, the aftermath of the destruction caused by dual-wielding, and a general application of laziness. We don't need subtle niches (except perhaps in the utility weapon department), because there is ample opportunity to utilize Halo's construction to make every weapon unique and balanced.

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Visual AND Sound design for me. We can't completely ignore the fact that Halo 5 Guardians is the only Halo game (except H3:ODST) that changed the shield's sound completely. Even Halo Wars and Halo: Spartan Assault keep the similar (if not, the same) sound for low shields, no shields and shields recharging. Even Halo 4 keeps that tradition.

 

Lets replace the original Rocket Launcher that looks sick and original as hell with a generic design! That's a great idea!... cmon bruh.

 

I've alway been afraid to admit it, but I seriously hate these games even more because of the new art style and sound designs. Mainly the art style. The art style alone can almost make or break whether it feels like a Halo game to me.

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