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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Why do we even need that many utility weapons?

 

(Inb4 promoting individual play styles)

I think the reason we have so many utility weapons is because Bungie/343 feels new weapons need to added with every sequel to make the game worth your purchase and then every subsequent game must not only create it's own new utility weapons but also bring back the old ones so as to not piss any one off. It went from Pistol to BR/Carbine to DMR/Needle/Rifle to BR/DMR/Light Rifle to BR/DMR/Light Rifle/Carbine/AR/SMG and I wouldn't be surprised if later on more Halo 5 utility weapons are revealed and Halo 6 will probably have 20. 

 

Honestly it wouldn't be such a problem if you only saw one precision weapon and one automatic weapon on each map. Truth could be the only map with a Carbine and every other weapon on map would be BR ammo except for the SMG, Regret could be the only Light Rifle map, Eden the only DMR map and Empire the only AR map. 

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Personally, I think the BR/Pistol is a good balance. BR is the definitive average weapon all around, whereas the Pistol has a faster kill time with low aim assist (would be better as a 4sk).

 

And a red reticule range buff.

 

The Light Rifle is near useless up close

 

It to me felt like the Light Rifle had the quickest kill time even unscoped but it was just hard(er) to land all your shots. Learn how to aim BK. 

 

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I think the reason we have so many utility weapons is because Bungie/343 feels new weapons need to added with every sequel to make the game worth your purchase and then every subsequent game must not only create it's own new utility weapons but also bring back the old ones so as to not piss any one off. It went from Pistol to BR/Carbine to DMR/Needle/Rifle to BR/DMR/Light Rifle to BR/DMR/Light Rifle/Carbine/AR/SMG and I wouldn't be surprised if later on more Halo 5 utility weapons are revealed and Halo 6 will probably have 20.

 

Honestly it wouldn't be such a problem if you only saw one precision weapon and one automatic weapon on each map. Truth could be the only map with a Carbine and every other weapon on map would be BR ammo except for the SMG, Regret could be the only Light Rifle map, Eden the only DMR map and Empire the only AR map.

honestly bro, its just poor weapon design.

 

of course 343i (and just about every other game developer) wants to try and make older players buy the newer games, so they add new stuff to it (weapons for example) but does that justify the lackluster quality of the current halo sandbox? No.

 

At this point going back and trying to make old weapons play better would be a serious improvement. For instance they could bring back the incendiary grenade and make it far more powerful versus flesh and less so versus shields, maybe increase the radius significantly, doing this would've made it an incredibly effective weapon versus flood and an effective way of finishing off multiple opponents, but of course they won't do that.

 

I know H5 will have another cluttered and redundant sandbox, I just hope they add SOMETHING of value this time, not just a bunch of reskins, think more hydra and less prophets bane.

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Pistol needs a buff to be a good starting weapon. 4sk, less recoil, and more range. It's ROF would be in between BR & CC - which you'd have on map. 

 

DMR needs some sort of Buff, it's basically the weakass child of LR & BR right now. LR is perfect.

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Personally, I think the BR/Pistol is a good balance. BR is the definitive average weapon all around, whereas the Pistol has a faster kill time with low aim assist (would be better as a 4sk).

 

And a red reticule range buff.

 

The Light Rifle is near useless up close

 

It to me felt like the Light Rifle had the quickest kill time even unscoped but it was just hard(er) to land all your shots. Learn how to aim BK. 

 

 

Don't support buffing the RRR on H5 Magnum. It's one of the few things that make picking up a BR (or whatever other precision weapon) over it worth it. The main gripes I had with it in the beta were how you couldn't aim downwards if you shot too fast while taking damage (excessive recoil + flinch) and how it was almost impossible to ever get two kills from full to death in one mag.

 

I think the smartest approach here is to buff the damage alone to give it a chance to compete against other precision weapons, while keeping its weaker scope. In an ideal world, the Magnum should have the highest potential kill time of most precision weapons, just because it IS harder to aim at range and has spread/bloom. People will RARELY get the fastest kill time with it because randomness on precision weapons is still a thing.

 

Like this, the Magnum is kept a viable weapon that rewards calm and skillful shooting, a decent starting weapon, a weapon that can set up for close quarter spammeroni beatdowns and on top of that, we avoid having multiple precision weapons that are meant to be used at about the same distance, preventing sandbox redundancies.

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Pistol needs a buff to be a good starting weapon. 4sk, less recoil, and more range. It's ROF would be in between BR & CC - which you'd have on map. 

 

DMR needs some sort of Buff, it's basically the weakass child of LR & BR right now. LR is perfect.

the pistol actually has the fastest ttk of all the precision weapons, but it does need a better scope view and more range to make it more rewarding, DMR also needs a slight kill time increase, to be that of the br or faster, but be harder to use.

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Pistol needs a buff to be a good starting weapon. 4sk, less recoil, and more range. It's ROF would be in between BR & CC - which you'd have on map. 

 

DMR needs some sort of Buff, it's basically the weakass child of LR & BR right now. LR is perfect.

Tbh I felt like the DMR sat perfectly where they wanted it. The slower kill time made it weaker at short range but the aim assist and single shot made it god tier from across the map. The lightrifle is far too clunky to compete with a DMR cross map in a straight up 1 on 1 and the BR/Lightrifle just aren't as easy to hit the shots with so it made going with a DMR for cross map/large distance shootouts the higher percentage play. 

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Why do we even need that many utility weapons?

Better to have too many than too few. From a non-Halo players perspecive, I could definitely fault the franchise for not having enough weapon diversity- especially watching HCS.

 

Right now its BR or a power weapon, everything else is so useless that it's never used. We need more fuctional variance in weapons to allow for more creativity. For example the Grenade Launcher bouncing around corners and shield stripping, the CE plasma rifle stun, and the concussion rifle knockback. These weapons need to be strong enough to compete with other weapons though, they can't just rely on their alternate function to keep them viable.

 

Also last week I discovered that you could "boost" yourself higher when jumping by Hammering downwards in H3, even if there is no geometry underneath you.

 

Why not bring these functions back? (Not necessarily the weapons, just the gameplay ideas)

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Don't support buffing the RRR on H5 Magnum. It's one of the few things that make picking up a BR (or whatever other precision weapon) over it worth it. The main gripes I had with it in the beta were how you couldn't aim downwards if you shot too fast while taking damage (excessive recoil + flinch) and how it was almost impossible to ever get two kills from full to death in one mag.

 

I think the smartest approach here is to buff the damage alone to give it a chance to compete against other precision weapons, while keeping its weaker scope. In an ideal world, the Magnum should have the highest potential kill time of most precision weapons, just because it IS harder to aim at range and has spread/bloom. People will RARELY get the fastest kill time with it because randomness on precision weapons is still a thing.

 

Like this, the Magnum is kept a viable weapon that rewards calm and skillful shooting, a decent starting weapon, a weapon that can set up for close quarter spammeroni beatdowns and on top of that, we avoid having multiple precision weapons that are meant to be used at about the same distance, preventing sandbox redundancies.

I think the magnum and br should have identical shot to kill (four) and identical range. The difference would be the BR would be easier to use with a somewhat slower ttk while the magnum would be harder and have a somewhat faster ttk. 

 

One thing I loved about the beta was that there were zero useless weapon. Each utility weapon could be used effectively at it's intended range. However I felt the pistol was the only weapon that wasn't better than any weapon at any range, and it wasn't equal to your primary weapons (In Ar and Br starts) so why switch to it? I think bad players should be able to find success with the easier to use yet slight under powered BR and the better players should find succeeds with the harder to use, more powerful pistol. 

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I wish they'd try making the pistol extremely hard to aim, you had to lead your shots, there was barely any magnetism and it had an amazingly clean scope. Make it kill really fast, like I don't know, 3 shots to reward precision. And just for fun, make the melee animation toss the pistol on the air and catch it back in MC's hands. And what the hell, for extra flare make the muzzle flash sort of reddish or something.

 

I wonder...

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You have to keep in mind that even if it is harder to use a higher RoF can be pretty good at long range because of the higher frequenz of descopes that your target gets from it.

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If the Magnum in H5 unscoped felt like the Light Rifle when unscoped it would be pretty much perfect imo.

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Meh, I've seen some accidental back smacks happen that net me a kill and save my life. Granted, it's hilarious when it happens and it's not that often, but I don't feel like all weaponless melees need to be rid of FF.

 

If you look at most things in relation to trolling/greifing... it's all situational. Normally there aren't any enemies within close proximity, multiple shots are aimed at a player, multiple melees have to connect, etc... Normally a friendly has to be hit more than once to kill, unless it's with a power weapon, so just put in an algorithm that takes those first things that are obvious into account and weigh them heavier towards the booting threshold.

 

The difficulty comes with Rockets, Sniper, and other one hit kill weapons. If you betray someone with 1 sniper headshot across the map, it might have been on purpose, but then again, you can't apply the same parameters to the situation. It was only one hit, the friendly might have been engaged with an enemy, or a crazy ricochet bullet may have brained your teammate. Bad luck happens sometimes, with power weapons, so just don't weigh the act as heavily.

 

Then you also have the people who keep their team mates weak if they are holding a power weapon and waiting for an enemy to finish them off. I'd rather see someone get some sort of penalty for constantly keeping their teammate one shot and not killing them than remove the thing that allows them to do so. Friendly fire can be a good/fun thing if it's not abused. So instead of removing the fun aspects of the game, just put things in place to prevent the abuse of them. Figure out ways that people abuse the mechanic and then implement a way to detect and enforce a penalty. It's sort of like a speeding ticket... Don't take away the fast cars from the people who enjoy them responsibly, just punish those who don't do it responsibly... Obviously you can't responsibly hit your own team mate, but you get the general idea.

I think you may have misunderstood my post.  I don't disagree with what you've written, by the way - it's just that I never propose taking those things away.  There are certain, very specific events that currently count toward the threshold that probably should not, and others that do not count that probably should.  I was just dealing with those specific events.

 

Regardless, I agree with what you wrote.

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Better to have too many than too few. From a non-Halo players perspecive, I could definitely fault the franchise for not having enough weapon diversity- especially watching HCS.

 

 

I'm all for weapon diversity. It's just that all these weapons work basically the same way. The same with the ten different shotguns, sniper rifles or rocket launchers in Halo 4.

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After playing alot of CE. I really have no idea why they stick too wanting to have the BR/DMR. the ce pistol is perfect in every sense. Quickkill times if you're talented enough, it balances perfect against power weapons. Yet they keep wanting too have the br :/ the pistol is somewhat easy too use too, just hard as shit too master so it's noob friendly. No more slayer or slayer brs. Just classic slayer bro. Everyone happy! Besides maybe xXMLGBR4shot85678X

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I think you may have misunderstood my post.  I don't disagree with what you've written, by the way - it's just that I never propose taking those things away.  There are certain, very specific events that currently count toward the threshold that probably should not, and others that do not count that probably should.  I was just dealing with those specific events.

 

Regardless, I agree with what you wrote.

 

How did I misunderstand when you said that melees (fists) shouldn't deal friendly damage? I know a lot of your post was about just tweaking the threshold of certain betrayals and other things such as that, but I was specifically talking about removing any type of friendly fire. I agree that accidents happen, some betrayals shouldn't count like blowing up a Banshee and having it land on someone's face, but I disagree with removing any type of Friendly Fire.

 

 

After playing alot of CE. I really have no idea why they stick too wanting to have the BR/DMR. the ce pistol is perfect in every sense. Quickkill times if you're talented enough, it balances perfect against power weapons. Yet they keep wanting too have the br :/ the pistol is somewhat easy too use too, just hard as shit too master so it's noob friendly. No more slayer or slayer brs. Just classic slayer bro. Everyone happy! Besides maybe xXMLGBR4shot85678X

 

Ever since H4 came out, I have always hated the DMR/LR. I think the LR is a great concept and it was created/designed well, but I don't feel they don't fit into the Halo style of play and just create a more stagnant game. Most people, when they pick up a long ranged weapon (Sniper, DMR, LR), will sit back and just try to pick people off. They won't push forward, they won't engage and it every slayer game turns into some sort of standoffish match and as boring as watching Lockout Slayer if both teams are wielding Long Ranged weapons.

 

The only reason I would have the BR vs another weapon like the DMR, is to prevent the Sniper from getting free kills. That's it. I feel the sniper should be the only Long Ranged weapon in the game. The pistol should resemble the CE pistol. Able to operate up close, but knock out the sniper zoom and the BR should operate in the grey areas. The close/mid range to the mid/long range. This would let the pistol, being the spawn weapon, be more effective at the more frequent ranges, but also be able to combat the BR effectively, even though it is tougher to use.

 

On top of that, I would force everyone to spawn with the pistol and that's it. It seems really bare-boned, but it would allow the casuals to pick up an AR that actually is powerful like they have always wanted. Let the AR be a shredding machine. Not SAW shredding, but an up close weapon that can eat faces.

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Ever since H4 came out, I have always hated the DMR/LR. I think the LR is a great concept and it was created/designed well, but I don't feel they don't fit into the Halo style of play and just create a more stagnant game. Most people, when they pick up a long ranged weapon (Sniper, DMR, LR), will sit back and just try to pick people off. They won't push forward, they won't engage and it every slayer game turns into some sort of standoffish match and as boring as watching Lockout Slayer if both teams are wielding Long Ranged weapons.

That isn't the fault of a weapon's long range, but rather the lack of incentive to move (open map design, power items that don't spawn frequently) and the inability of a player to do anything without the assistance of teamshooting.

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After playing alot of CE. I really have no idea why they stick too wanting to have the BR/DMR. the ce pistol is perfect in every sense. Quickkill times if you're talented enough, it balances perfect against power weapons. Yet they keep wanting too have the br :/ the pistol is somewhat easy too use too, just hard as shit too master so it's noob friendly. No more slayer or slayer brs. Just classic slayer bro. Everyone happy! Besides maybe xXMLGBR4shot85678X

Some of us have been trying for a decade to hammer this home. Its so simple and so perfect its hard to accept that its just a pipe dream.

 

How did I misunderstand when you said that melees (fists) shouldn't deal friendly damage? I know a lot of your post was about just tweaking the threshold of certain betrayals and other things such as that, but I was specifically talking about removing any type of friendly fire. I agree that accidents happen, some betrayals shouldn't count like blowing up a Banshee and having it land on someone's face, but I disagree with removing any type of Friendly Fire.

 

 

 

Ever since H4 came out, I have always hated the DMR/LR. I think the LR is a great concept and it was created/designed well, but I don't feel they don't fit into the Halo style of play and just create a more stagnant game. Most people, when they pick up a long ranged weapon (Sniper, DMR, LR), will sit back and just try to pick people off. They won't push forward, they won't engage and it every slayer game turns into some sort of standoffish match and as boring as watching Lockout Slayer if both teams are wielding Long Ranged weapons.

 

The only reason I would have the BR vs another weapon like the DMR, is to prevent the Sniper from getting free kills. That's it. I feel the sniper should be the only Long Ranged weapon in the game. The pistol should resemble the CE pistol. Able to operate up close, but knock out the sniper zoom and the BR should operate in the grey areas. The close/mid range to the mid/long range. This would let the pistol, being the spawn weapon, be more effective at the more frequent ranges, but also be able to combat the BR effectively, even though it is tougher to use.

 

On top of that, I would force everyone to spawn with the pistol and that's it. It seems really bare-boned, but it would allow the casuals to pick up an AR that actually is powerful like they have always wanted. Let the AR be a shredding machine. Not SAW shredding, but an up close weapon that can eat faces.

Nothing is wrong with being effective at all ranges. They just produce horizontal maps that have nothing spawning on them and no mans land between every bit of cover to accommodate sprint. It isn't that people don't move forward because they have a long range weapon its that people don't move forward because they have zero reason to move forward. Forcing the movement with a shorter range weapon is nothing but a band aid for glaring over sights in game design that are exclusive to newer Halo titles and/or shit maps in general.

 

This made me realize, again, just how much I hate whats been happening since H2. How Halo slowly devolved into running at each other in straight lines jumping up and down with BRs screaming callouts at your teammates bc teamshot is all there is or some god awful DMR with bloom. Totally flat maps. Power weapons spawning once every other year because the weapon you spawn with is so much ass you have to put rockets on a 3 min cd so the team with rocket control doesn't totally run away with the game. The only exciting plays being the same snipe you've seen 300 times on the pit. >.<

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You think the old designs were practical?

 

Human weapons have almost always looked terrible.

I have to agree. The old halo weapon designs were so impractical. Especially the sniper, the art looks fine.

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I have to agree. The old halo weapon designs were so impractical. Especially the sniper, the art looks fine.

What about the Halo 1 or 2 sniper looks impractical? It looks sort of like a Beretta 50 cal with a fancy sci-fi scope. H2A campaign sniper looks perfect IMHO and I could completely imagine it being manufactured.

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That isn't the fault of a weapon's long range, but rather the lack of incentive to move (open map design, power items that don't spawn frequently) and the inability of a player to do anything without the assistance of teamshooting.

 I don't disagree that teamshooting isn't the way to go, but I feel that the tighter maps have always been preferred by most players when it comes to 2v2, 4v4, and having long ranged weapons on those maps aren't really great. I think the BR (with minimal spread) would be enough to accomplish this. I'm not saying that a single shot weapon wouldn't be better, but if the BR is a staple, then so be it, but I don't feel you need to be able to kill perfectly at all ranges. Part of what makes the sniper so deadly is the ability to brain people from without getting up close & personal. Making the DMR useful at long ranges means that it would have to suck at close range in order to balance it out, thus making it a mini sniper, which isn't really what Halo needs. The maps are already big enough as it is and having weapons that can reach longer distances isn't going to help make them any smaller.

 

Also, if a Sniper is posted up with a sniper and not moving, that should be part of your communication with your team. You shouldn't be killing someone who has a power weapon every time. Yeah, if they suck with it, but with two equally competent players, the power weapon should win the majority of the time. So if I sniper can pick a few shots and keep moving around, then they should be rewarded. Calling out isn't necessarily useful for just teamshooting, but that is mostly what happens because of how the sandbox is. In CE, calling out where enemies are isn't always for teamshooting, it's for awareness more than not and it only has a pistol to ping snipers. The pistol doesn't have a ridiculous zoom on it either. It's a medium ranged weapon that can reach across the map. If you have the skill, you can kill someone at distance, which is what I was going for, but having multiple weapons that can basically give you the skill to reach across the map is one direction that I don't think the series needs. Imagine having a DMR on Hang Em High. Having a 3x zoom instead of a 2x. That would make the shots a lot easier, thus making people move around even less. That is my whole point. Sure map design must compliment the sandbox, but how much faith do you put in 343s Map design team to make good maps? They can't even make a decent Midship remake.

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How did I misunderstand when you said that melees (fists) shouldn't deal friendly damage? I know a lot of your post was about just tweaking the threshold of certain betrayals and other things such as that, but I was specifically talking about removing any type of friendly fire. I agree that accidents happen, some betrayals shouldn't count like blowing up a Banshee and having it land on someone's face, but I disagree with removing any type of Friendly Fire.

The answer is that you did not misunderstand my post . . . I misunderstood yours.  ;)

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Better to have too many than too few. From a non-Halo players perspecive, I could definitely fault the franchise for not having enough weapon diversity- especially watching HCS.

 

Right now its BR or a power weapon, everything else is so useless that it's never used. We need more fuctional variance in weapons to allow for more creativity. For example the Grenade Launcher bouncing around corners and shield stripping, the CE plasma rifle stun, and the concussion rifle knockback. These weapons need to be strong enough to compete with other weapons though, they can't just rely on their alternate function to keep them viable.

 

Also last week I discovered that you could "boost" yourself higher when jumping by Hammering downwards in H3, even if there is no geometry underneath you.

 

Why not bring these functions back? (Not necessarily the weapons, just the gameplay ideas)

I agree that the sandbox tends to have a lot more to it than what meets the eye... a lot of weapons have secondary functions rather than "damage as fast as possible". Like you mentioned, the Gravity Hammer in Halo 3 was useful for trick jumping, but once you got a good grasp on its mechanics and hitboxes, you were able to do stuff like hitting people through walls, floors and/or thin obstacles, or do stuff like this:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/vetoeds/c/4586559

 

But the thing is, unless it's a 3 shot burst rifle, for some reason people tend not to be interested in weapons for competitive. Even from the beta feedback I've gathered, people seem more interested in using BR starts over AR/Magnum just because the BR feels more rewarding, precise and less random (truth is, it's just easier overall and a lot less punishing). Buffing the Magnum to 4sk could help alleviate that feeling perhaps.

 

I think the magnum and br should have identical shot to kill (four) and identical range. The difference would be the BR would be easier to use with a somewhat slower ttk while the magnum would be harder and have a somewhat faster ttk. 

 

One thing I loved about the beta was that there were zero useless weapon. Each utility weapon could be used effectively at it's intended range. However I felt the pistol was the only weapon that wasn't better than any weapon at any range, and it wasn't equal to your primary weapons (In Ar and Br starts) so why switch to it? I think bad players should be able to find success with the easier to use yet slight under powered BR and the better players should find succeeds with the harder to use, more powerful pistol. 

I agree with most of this, but @bolded I think it's the reason H5 should use AR/Magnum starts across the board, even for competitive. The Magnum should be more than lethal enough to compete with other precision weapons with an identical range (even a tad lower would be fine, either doesn't matter much) as long as it's 4sk. The point should be to grab the BR on the map rather than just have it right off the bat, cause you know... the game kind of lacks incentives to move around the map. You'll almost always want to pick-up the BR vs. the Magnum, because the BR is just a bit easier, not as punishing and allows for more kills per clip. Placing Magnums on the maps would result in them almost never being grabbed and just getting in the way (leading to an eventual removal). Think of the Magnums on Warlord that kept preventing people from lifting flags into the base.

 

Friendly fire damage reflection. 

This has to be the best idea to deal with friendly fire I've read in a long time... somehow never heard/thought of it either. Deals with griefing and keeps teamshooting and area damage skillful. I hope this is an option.

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What about the Halo 1 or 2 sniper looks impractical? It looks sort of like a Beretta 50 cal with a fancy sci-fi scope. H2A campaign sniper looks perfect IMHO and I could completely imagine it being manufactured.

Well for marines without helmet to scope integration, a big rectangular screen would have tons of glare, and a smaller circular one would be better.

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