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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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srsly

Well, UT did it better, but the mechanic itself is pretty much the same, just unbalanced. I don't recall someone that used it before UT, but i could be wrong.

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Well, UT did it better, but the mechanic itself is pretty much the same, just unbalanced. I don't recall someone that used it before UT, but i could be wrong.

 

Ooohh you are talking about dodging, yes, UT does have that and is just 100% better implemented because UT is an 100% better game.

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Ooohh you are talking about dodging, yes, UT does have that and is just 100% better implemented because UT is an 100% better game.

 

 

Playing UT4 Pre-Alpha is already a lot more fun than playing H5 beta. If anyone here have a half decent PC and still hasn't give it a try i would highly recommend doing it, it's completely free.

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Either that or both games were copying Titanfall's movement and the idea of players in superarmor and just went the same way with it. Sounds plausible believe it or not, although ut doesn't account for where Ground Pound came from

titanfalls movement dynamic is different when compared to h5, the only thing they share are clamber and sprint, you could say mechs, but we've had the mantis before.

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Even if by some magical charge the ideas for all these SAs came to 343's devs in a dream (and weren't just straight appropriated), my biggest problem is that NONE of them bring ANYTHING new to the FPS table. I'm not talking about new stuff to Halo. Obviously it's new to Halo. But the gaming industry doesn't exist inside a vacuum. Halo will never reclaim any semblance of the FPS crown it once wore unless it decides to looks two steps AHEAD of the competition instead of being content to march step-in-line (or a step behind) with other FPS games.

 

Of course right now the fanbase is hoping for a return to form first and foremost before implementing new stuff. But obviously new mechanics are coming whether we like them or not, and I'd rather be able to say that Halo 5 invented (or popularized) [insert new evolutionary FPS mechanic here] than say "Well, Halo 5's pretty good. It's like a mix of Titanfall, Call of Duty, and Halo. You know, it has some stuff from each. New stuff? Nah, but it does that other stuff pretty well." 

 

Meh.

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To be fair, it's extremely hard to come up with something new that hasn't been there before in some form.

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To be fair, it's extremely hard to come up with something new that hasn't been there before in some form.

 

Warning: Opinions ahead, not facts by any means. 

 

Oh absolutely. But when you have a group of hundreds who are paid to eat, sleep, and breathe Halo and games in general day in and day out for years, ya gotta be thinking of ways to innovate. Start with a group and tear apart elements and mechanics such as health or weapons' systems from the ground up. Look at and think about every single feasible possibility for every single aspect of every detail of that mechanic and think "what could be done to make [X] mechanic smoother/better/more interesting while keeping in line with the core elements of Halo? Should another mechanic be added to do a new job, or can I perfect this already created mechanic even further? If a new mechanic needs to be added, what important problem does it solve and how can I make it in a way that feels more natural and FUN than anything done before, Halo or not?" DON'T look at your competitors and think "This mechanic looks interesting and might also solve a problem we're having. How can I fit this in to my game?"

 

That said, there's nothing wrong with doing the latter. Nothing at all assuming you rebuild the mechanic into the type of game you are creating from the absolute ground up--this is a typical practice and can create very desirable results (or horrific ones; nothing here is black and white after all). Still, there's something to be said for trying to think of exciting mechanics from the ground up. Sometimes they don't pan out, other times they do. 

 

Also to be clear, not being able to innovate an entire genre doesn't make 343 any less of a quality developer. But they were handed the reigns of one of the most innovative gaming franchises in history. They're expected to try and do it justice. And if they can, it would propel 343 to the top echelons of gaming developers at the forefront of video game (or at least genre) evolution.

 

Wow...didn't mean to write that much >_> TL;DR it's understandable if 343 can't innovate the genre like Bungie did--that's a tall, tall order--but it would be amazing if they could and bring Halo back to the forefront of FPS games. And I'd rather see them make some cool mechanics that don't last (but still work in a Halo game) than "copy" the competition. And if they DO copy the competition like all modern FPS games copied Halo CE, at least also add your own stuff to the core game while taking what you copied and evolving it to new heights.

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Would be good to get some thoughts on the addition of a skill-requiring, offensive, CQC spartan ability to deepen combat/balance thruster.

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TL;DR it's understandable if 343 can't innovate the genre like Bungie did

 

Did Bungie really bring anything new to the table with CE? Wasn't it rather the unique combination of gameplay elements that existed already before? I honestly don't know.

 

A few years ago I read about a suggestion to implement anti-bloom. Your reticle would shrink and aim assist/bullet magnetism would decrease the faster you shoot. I'd like something like this.

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Did Bungie really bring anything new to the table with CE? Wasn't it rather the unique combination of gameplay elements that existed already before? I honestly don't know.

 

A few years ago I read about a suggestion to implement anti-bloom. Your reticle would shrink and aim assist/bullet magnetism would decrease the faster you shoot. I'd like something like this.

 

343 literally has "innovated" nothing, even if Bungie did ONE thing - its ONE more thing than 343.

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Did Bungie really bring anything new to the table with CE? Wasn't it rather the unique combination of gameplay elements that existed already before? I honestly don't know.

 

A few years ago I read about a suggestion to implement anti-bloom. Your reticle would shrink and aim assist/bullet magnetism would decrease the faster you shoot. I'd like something like this.

From what I understand controlling only 2 weapons was a first for shooters

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Would be good to get some thoughts on the addition of a skill-requiring, offensive, CQC spartan ability to deepen combat/balance thruster.

you know it would also be nice if we had a weapon that would disable sprint (for a period of time) that way you could do something about people running away, not trying to derail you or anything, just saying.

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A few years ago I read about a suggestion to implement anti-bloom. Your reticle would shrink and aim assist/bullet magnetism would decrease the faster you shoot. I'd like something like this.

It would be redundant unless you had aim assist set way too high in the first place.

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It would be redundant unless you had aim assist set way too high in the first place.

 

Hardly - in any Halo game the difference between having aim assist and none is enormous. For this to be redundant there would have to be so little aim assist that it would be like shooting an ally, and no one can consistently kill an ally with any kind of speed. We would need near-instant kills on every weapon for that to be feasible.

 

Having aim assist tied to RoF is one I suggested ages ago, and gave to Quin about a year ago. He replied saying it sounded like a good idea, but I haven't heard anything since so doubt anything like it will happen. I think the game would need to be made from the ground up with this idea from the get go for it to work properly though, so I understand why it isn't being considered for 5.

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the games were in development at the same time, how could they have been stolen?

If I had to "accuse" 343 of taking inspiration from anywhere in the game industry, I'd point at Bungie. The main vibe I get from Halo 5 is that 343 is trying to do everything (and more) Bungie wanted to do with a shooter -- both in and out of Halo. Part of me wants to find this ambitious and promising, but even Bungie is struggling to deliver at that level. 

 

Of course you'll want to bring up that there's no way 343 had enough time to take features from Destiny and put it in Halo 5... but let's be honest here, a lot of people at Bungie/343 have common points, are friends, close, etc. and I'm 99.8% sure some important people (think lead design) at 343 got to see Destiny while the alpha was just coming out, therefore were able to get a good idea of how X feature worked and so on, resulting in potential "ideas" for Halo 5. I'm not so much trying to point fingers here than just state an observation, I realize that a lot of perks in Destiny are tons of fun and sometimes result in cool ass stuff (not always skillful, but cool), but there's just too much stuff in Halo 5 that is also in Destiny, despite being uncommon to shooters in general.

 

- Sprint build-up time

- Powerful sprint + melee attack (Titan's Shoulder Charge)

- Auto-stabilize/Hover (Warlock's Angel of Light)

- Ground Pound (Titan's Fist of Havoc)

- Pre-game screen with team preview and armor showcase

- Announcer who talks too much and says cliche stuff

- "Legendary" weapons

- Strongholds mode, which existed through Territories but was renamed, exists in Destiny through Control mode or CoD's Domination

 

And then there are the various movement options (Sprint, Slide, Clamber, Thrusters) that for the most part, are an attempt at balancing the previous AAs from Reach/H4. It's safe to assume Clamber is just the logical nerf to jetpacks and so on. I think for the most part, Destiny and Titanfall influenced the game a lot more than whatever else on the current market did. More than CoD. And like I said, I don't blame people at 343 for wanting to take some inspiration from Destiny. Those features and abilities are fun, feel rewarding (albeit not skillful at all), and it makes for an awesome looking game... but it doesn't fit into an Arena shooter very well. I realize most of them were adapted and changed with balance in mind, but some of the stuff is just awkward and out of place.

 

Then again that's what the beta feedback was for, to an extent. I just wish some of the stuff was straight up cut from the game, rather than resorting to toggles all over the place. The end result of this will be split communities and playlists, awkward controls, accidental inputs and a weird game balance overall. Even if it did work in its current state.

 

TL;DR - Halo 5 has taken a lot of stuff from Destiny, stuff that makes sense in a progression-based, squad-based, class-based shooter, but not so much in Halo 5. Stuff like Spartan Charge and Slide (if it's not buffed a lot into something useful) need to go IMO. 

 

If you need to add stuff from other games, grab the somewhat cool and useful stuff... like active reloading from GoW? That's a cool feature. Instead of making it buff damage, it could be no spread on precision weapons (indirect nerf to Smart Scope added precision), skip the reloading animation, etc. It could get rid of the stupid YY'ing we've been doing for ages now. 

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f you need to add stuff from other games, grab the somewhat cool and useful stuff... like active reloading from GoW? That's a cool feature. Instead of making it buff damage, it could be no spread on precision weapons (indirect nerf to Smart Scope added precision), skip the reloading animation, etc. It could get rid of the stupid YY'ing we've been doing for ages now.

We think alike it seems, nice.

 

but yeah lets not pretend that lack of originally is the real issue with halo right now, sure its a problem, but honestly we have no one to blame but ourselves, instead of trying to make a new badass game we instead either suggest they bring back x from y halo game or halo needs z from q (generic FPS game) and we end up with a game that's stale and boring, its asinine. to blame 343i for not being innovative when they're stuck between a rock and a hard place anyway.

 

The real issue is incredibly poor execution, for instance was dual-wielding a bad idea? No. Was hijacking a bad idea? No. Was SPOPS a bad idea?Again, no. hell I would argue almost every single change that has been done to halo since the beginning has had some potential to it, its just that the developers haven't had enough time to make it work, or they simply were lazy and didn't care.

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We think alike it seems, nice.

 

but yeah lets not pretend that lack of originally is the real issue with halo right now, sure its a problem, but honestly we have no one to blame but ourselves, instead of trying to make a new badass game we instead either suggest they bring back x from y halo game or halo needs z from q (generic FPS game) and we end up with a game that's stale and boring, its asinine. to blame 343i for not being innovative when they're stuck between a rock and a hard place anyway.

 

The real issue is incredibly poor execution, for instance was dual-wielding a bad idea? No. Was hijacking a bad idea? No. Was SPOPS a bad idea?Again, no. hell I would argue almost every single change that has been done to halo since the beginning has had some potential to it, its just that the developers haven't had enough time to make it work, or they simply were lazy and didn't care.

Not really bothered with where or how 343 gets inspiration from game mechanics, and I agree that we shouldn't shoot something down just because it's new. I'd like to see Spartan Charge removed because it's easy to accidentally launch it (and to be punished for it because the animation is longer) and adds literally nothing to the game, except making sprint herpaderping even easier. Sliding is just pointless because thrusters do the same, but in any direction, at any time, just you don't need to sprint for a second beforehand.

 

These are two features that require inputs and both have a substantial effect on your aiming/shooting ability at the time of usage, and can lead up to being killed if used improperly. I yet have to see an impressive use of either despite all the Halo 5 content I watched (the most impressive was using Spartan Charge to push a TEAMMATE off the map to grab the sniper).

 

I'm fine with new stuff, just we need stuff that adds to the metagame, requires some sort of thinking, skill or prior experience to usage. Once again I'm fine with most of the stuff in Halo 5, just some things don't really make sense in their implementation.

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- Powerful sprint + melee attack (Titan's Shoulder Charge)

Less distance, not an instant kill

- Ground Pound (Titan's Fist of Havoc)

Fist of Havoc is riddled with invincibility and damage resistance frames, has a giant arch and range, massive blast radius, no charge up time, no height requirement, and so much more.

- Announcer who talks too much and says cliche stuff

Debatable.

- "Legendary" weapons

You can't even compare these two just because they use the word Legendary...

- Strongholds mode, which existed through Territories but was renamed, exists in Destiny through Control mode or CoD's Domination

CoD's Domination = 3 Plot Territories

Destiny's Control is unique. It's Slayer with multipliers for territory control...

Strongholds is a setup oriented Territories that only uses objective scoring

 

The three are nothing alike.

 

Okay, as someone who plays Destiny I can say that this is the most inaccurate comparison in the world.

 

(First off, 343 isn't going to Bungie who developed there game over 4+ years to see what 'mechanics' they are putting into their characters)

 

Refer to the red.

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Okay, as someone who plays Destiny I can say that this is the most inaccurate comparison in the world.

 

(First off, 343 isn't going to Bungie who developed there game over 4+ years to see what 'mechanics' they are putting into their characters)

 

Refer to the red.

I'm not pretending all those are 100% the exact same, else there would be no comparison in the first place, and people would just straight up acknowledge the point I want to make without me even having to break it down... but the similarities are there. Up to you if you want to acknowledge it or be in denial about it, at the end of the day, it means nothing at all. I do, however, hope that your eyes don't deceive you this much in normal situations.

 

Anyhow, not gonna enter this pointless back and forth, I don't know how to help out further if you don't see what I see. I do, however, want to point out that Fist of Havoc can be upgraded (Death from Above perk) to attack from top-down after jumping, much like Ground Pound. I will also admit that the Legendary weapon thing was a stretch. However there's nothing inaccurate about the points I made.

 

That's like if I showed you two cars from the same manufacturer, both the same model, and told you "man, those cars sure look like they were made by the same people" and you responded no because the rims and mirrors have a different design. Like yeah, you can find differences if you focus hard enough, but are you looking at the bigger picture here?

 

As for Bungie working on Destiny for the past X amount of time... it doesn't matter. Whenever the game hits a stable enough build to showcase some of the game and abilities, that's all you need to be able to draw ideas from it. Once again, this is all speculation, and despite the correlations, no hard facts to make of this. The point is, people know people (esp. people who tend to work in similar fields of interest) and I'm sure Washington is not that big.

 

I would never accuse 343 of plagiarizing other developers, nor need inspiration from them, but to put this into perspective, all it takes is "wow this mechanic feels so cool" to go through the head of a 343 developer while checking out Destiny and bam, all of a sudden, you want that mechanic in your own game. Just gotta bring that shit up during the next meeting and hope it catches enough traction. Keep in mind that this could have happen at ANY point during the past 4-5 years, leading up to the Halo 5 trailer we saw last E3 I think it was.

 

Once again it's not so much a witch hunt here, I just do want to point out that Halo 5 uses some abilities and features found in Destiny, and a lot of this stuff ONLY makes sense in a Destiny environment, and NOT in a Arena shooter.

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Either that or both games were copying Titanfall's movement and the idea of players in superarmor and just went the same way with it. Sounds plausible believe it or not, although ut doesn't account for where Ground Pound came from

Accidental mobile neg, sorry.
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Why not just beautify the old scope system while keeping the core functionality? Why does it have to feel exactly like all other generic ADS shooters?

 

I can't help but feel that the inclusion of ADS is a pure business decision, a checkbox that they had to tick when designing the new mechanics. To actually make it tied to the L-trigger on the default control scheme makes it obvious which demographics they are trying to hit.

 

What's blowing my mind is that new players are going to learn Halo as an "L-trigger to ADS game," which was unthinkable to me a year ago.

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Yeah if ADS is gonna be in Halo, the least they could do is keep the traditional right stick as the default configuration. When I noticed left trigger was the default, I almost cried. That's a slap in the face to the fans.

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Why not just beautify the old scope system while keeping the core functionality? Why does it have to feel exactly like all other generic ADS shooters?

 

I can't help but feel that the inclusion of ADS is a pure business decision, a checkbox that they had to tick when designing the new mechanics. To actually make it tied to the L-trigger on the default control scheme makes it obvious which demographics they are trying to hit.

 

What's blowing my mind is that new players are going to learn Halo as an "L-trigger to ADS game," which was unthinkable to me a year ago.

ADS is insignificant to halo 5 overall, this is one of those rare additions that may end up doing more good than harm, at least for 343i that is.

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